Oakland McCulloch is a seasoned leader whose experiences span from military battlefields to corporate boardrooms. McCulloch, a former U.S. Army officer and author, delves into the essence of leadership, emphasizing integrity and the courage to make tough decisions. Drawing on over four decades of diverse experiences, he articulates how true leadership is about listening, debating, and making decisions that may not always be popular but are necessary.

McCulloch's leadership philosophy centers on the impact of choices, not just on oneself but on the broader community and future generations. He shares poignant examples from his military career, highlighting scenarios where leadership decisions had life-altering consequences. Through these narratives, McCulloch illustrates the gravity and responsibility that come with leadership roles, whether in combat or in peacetime.

Listeners are treated to a wealth of knowledge on the principles of effective leadership, including the importance of owning one's decisions and the ethical dilemmas leaders face. The discussion also touches on contemporary issues like corporate and governmental trust, urging current and aspiring leaders to prioritize the greater good over personal gain.

Want to learn more about Oakland McCulloch's work? Check out their website at https://www.ltcoakmcculloch.com.

Connect with Oakland McCulloch on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/oakland-mcculloch-34293256/.

Key Points with Timestamps:

• [00:01:20.17] McCulloch’s philosophy on leadership formed from 40 years of diverse experiences.
• [00:02:15.29] Emphasizing the importance of listening to diverse opinions as a leader.
• [00:06:20.18] Insights on the complexities and responsibilities of leading in a global context.
• [00:09:24.10] Reflections on the decisions and their long-term impacts during the Gulf War.
• [00:19:44.22] Discussion on the ethical boundaries of leadership in challenging situations.
• [00:26:39.24] McCulloch shares personal convictions about leadership decisions and their consequences.
• [00:34:48.21] The vital role of trust and integrity in leadership, highlighted through personal anecdotes.

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment of my career.

00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;10
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on the show.

00;00;51;10 - 00;01;20;14
Craig Andrews
Today I want to welcome Oakland, McCulloch been looking forward to this conversation because Oakland is a man of integrity who's had to face leadership decisions that very few of us will ever face in in regards to the consequences of his choices. He's a keynote speaker and the author of the book, Your Leadership Legacy Becoming the Leader You Were Meant to Be.

00;01;20;17 - 00;01;54;21
Craig Andrews
His leadership talk in his book are based on 40 years of experience, over 40 years of experience in combat and peacemaking operations, disaster relief operations, and in the boardroom. We're going to talk about principles that will benefit today's leaders. Actually, I'm really excited about this because we're going to go into some tough areas. We're going to talk about some, some tough things, and there are going to be some people who don't agree with what we talk about here, and that's okay.

00;01;54;24 - 00;02;15;27
Craig Andrews
That's the type of people we need to be, is that we can hear opposing opinions and still give them weight. they're going to be people that hear today's interview and they're just going to shout out. Yes, that's true. But stay tuned, because I think this is going to be an amazing discussion. Oakland. Welcome.

00;02;15;29 - 00;02;38;11
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah. Well thanks, Craig. I'm looking forward to this. Just like you been. And you're absolutely right in your opening statement there. I mean, we have to be able to listen to other people's opinions. That's what this republic is based on. I mean, that you can't have a republic if you don't have debate. and that that's okay. We should get back to having a good debate among people.

00;02;38;14 - 00;02;46;22
Oakland McCulloch
I tell people all the time, I don't know when in this country, you got to the point where if I disagree with you, I have to hate you, because that's not what this is about.

00;02;46;25 - 00;03;04;12
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And it's, you know, there's a cycle that we go through and this could be a discussion for another time. But let me, you know here in this quickly, we, we go through eight year cycles. And if you look back 80 years ago we were a little cantankerous back then. Yeah. If you look at 80 years before that we fought a civil war.

00;03;04;14 - 00;03;22;26
Craig Andrews
If you look at 80 years before that, we fought a Revolutionary War. Yeah. So, you know, I just throw that out to say, yes, we're in a horrible spot as a nation, but part of our discussion today is don't lose hope. Let's figure out the path forward together.

00;03;22;28 - 00;03;24;15
Oakland McCulloch
That's right.

00;03;24;18 - 00;03;49;12
Craig Andrews
And and it will make us uncomfortable. And that's okay. That's okay. so I, you know, you were in the army, I and I think I forgot to highlight you. You went to U.S. Military Academy, and, which is extremely hard to get into. And it's a place where leaders are built. you know, and you were in the Army, and, you know, I was in the Marines.

00;03;49;12 - 00;04;14;09
Craig Andrews
And, of course, there's this tension between between the Army and the Marine Corps. Chesty Puller had some choice words and, but as I've gotten to know you, you are a man of integrity. You're a solid leader, and I think people need to hear what you have to say. What inclined you towards the military? What inclined you towards leadership?

00;04;14;11 - 00;04;47;00
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah, well, I was always a leader. you know, growing up, I was captain of my sports teams. I was student government president, class president, those kind of things. So I felt like that's something I was. Not only that I liked, but I was good at. at least I hope I was. And then then, you know, about my sophomore into my sophomore, beginning of my junior year, as I was looking at colleges and figuring out what I wanted to do, I looked at the military academy.

00;04;47;00 - 00;05;11;10
Oakland McCulloch
I looked at ROTC, and I just decided I wanted to be an officer in the Army and explore that realm of leadership. And, you know, and I think one of the things that drove me to the military, at least I know it was one of the things and it certainly was one of the things that kept me in was, you know, I, I grew up in a, a poorer family.

00;05;11;10 - 00;05;32;21
Oakland McCulloch
I won't say we were poor, but we we certainly weren't, we didn't have a lot of money, and I got and yet, you know, my father never finished the eighth grade, my mom never finished the 10th grade. And they went back, got their geds. But as far as schooling goes, that's as far as they went. And yet I got to make a choice to go to the United States Military Academy.

00;05;32;23 - 00;05;57;11
Oakland McCulloch
Nowhere else in the world does that happen where somebody like me can get the opportunities that I had and get to retire or lieutenant colonel from the Army and be where I am today. And I always said one of the reasons I did what I did was because I wanted other people, my my children, your children, somebody else's children, to have the same opportunities that I had growing up.

00;05;57;14 - 00;06;20;15
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And and that is something that's amazing. I, you know, I heard on the podcast a guy who grew up in Russia and, and his central message was, yes, America has problems while this one the message of his podcast. But he and I talked offline and he said, yeah, there's problems in America. You have no idea how bad it could be.

00;06;20;18 - 00;06;34;29
Oakland McCulloch
You know, I've been in 45 countries on five continents. You know, a lot of that because of the military and, and I always tell people, even with all our problems and we have plenty, this is still the greatest country in the world.

00;06;35;01 - 00;07;03;19
Craig Andrews
You know? So a direction I'd like to go for the next few minutes is rules of engagement, you know, and I think there's, you know, we can go back to wars that you've fought in and we can. I think there's some parallels for real life now. We were both active duty back during the first Gulf War. Right. And and you were a you were a, tank commander in, northern Kuwait.

00;07;03;20 - 00;07;04;25
Craig Andrews
Is that correct?

00;07;04;27 - 00;07;11;28
Oakland McCulloch
I during the first Gulf War, I was the, a generals aide. oh. Okay. Yeah.

00;07;12;00 - 00;07;35;24
Craig Andrews
But the, you know, we have rules of engagement. And if I'm remembering correctly, I'm sure you know them way better than I do for that war I was ever in Japan at the time. but one of the rules was we couldn't go into Iraq right? And, and there was this big tank battle up in northern Kuwait and H.R. McMaster.

00;07;35;27 - 00;07;39;21
Oakland McCulloch
well, we went into Iraq, but we couldn't cross the Euphrates River.

00;07;39;23 - 00;07;40;25
Craig Andrews
Okay. Was that it, then?

00;07;40;25 - 00;07;42;27
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah.

00;07;43;00 - 00;07;45;29
Craig Andrews
The McMaster crossed the line.

00;07;46;01 - 00;08;08;04
Oakland McCulloch
I don't think he did. I've read his book on the battle of 73 Easting, and, I think, you know, I know he got up a lot of hot water because of some of his opinions, but I think I think what he did was right. And taking care of his soldiers was the load. You know, that was his issue is that we weren't taking care of our soldiers.

00;08;08;07 - 00;08;21;08
Oakland McCulloch
We were holding them back, not allowing them to do what what we've asked them to do fight and win a war. And, and I think he, he made a lot of good decisions and, and his book is fantastic.

00;08;21;11 - 00;08;32;03
Craig Andrews
Well, and I think that's been an ongoing issue. You know, the and first off tell, tell folks what the rules of engagement are just kind of conceptually what does it mean to a soldier. What's it mean to marine.

00;08;32;05 - 00;08;54;23
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah. So you know, any time, whether it's war time, even during peace, you know, the peacekeeping operations I was in, you always have rules of engagement where it's kind of laid out what you are allowed to do and not do. And of course, the number one rule of engagement is you always have the right to self-defense. But other than that, it tells you when you're allowed to use force, what type of force.

00;08;54;25 - 00;09;04;28
Oakland McCulloch
And and so it kind of lays out the groundwork of of what what you're allowed to do and not allowed to do under certain situations.

00;09;05;00 - 00;09;11;17
Craig Andrews
And, you know, in the engagements that you've been. And where do you see that we got him. Right? And where do we get them wrong?

00;09;11;20 - 00;09;24;07
Oakland McCulloch
So I think that, you know, that's that's an interesting question. you know. In the first Gulf War, I think that.

00;09;24;10 - 00;09;45;12
Oakland McCulloch
That week held back some. And, you know, you can debate whether or not that was right or wrong, that General Powell made the right decision to to cease operations when he did or not. I would argue that some of that is why we went back a second time. but but, you know, I, I can understand his point of view as well.

00;09;45;15 - 00;10;10;27
Oakland McCulloch
I think, you know, the thing that we have to keep in mind when we do rules of Engagement is that you got to keep in mind the safety of your soldiers and the safety of noncombatants. and I think that's that's I think that's one of the places that we do a pretty good job. And we have where we've tried to limit the what we call collateral damage, the death of innocent civilians.

00;10;11;00 - 00;10;16;15
Oakland McCulloch
And I think we do that probably better than most countries, militaries.

00;10;16;17 - 00;10;48;26
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, one of the stories I, I know, there's a retired marine colonel, and they're in Dripping Springs, Texas, who told me a story about a, sergeant marine sergeant who? They captured some Taliban, and they were interrogating him, and they weren't talking. So he took the leader of the Taliban. They had took him up the hill, put him in a tent, tied up, and, and he fired around into the, to the dirt.

00;10;48;28 - 00;11;01;01
Craig Andrews
And then came out of the tent, went back down the hill and said, who's next? Or are you ready to talk? And sure enough, people started talking and he got court martialed and kicked out of the Marines for it. For that.

00;11;01;03 - 00;11;24;23
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that that's probably one of those where you're you're right on the line on what what is acceptable and not acceptable. you know, I don't know that, situation. I wasn't there, but but I know that's one of the things that that we have been told not to do those type of things.

00;11;24;23 - 00;11;36;22
Oakland McCulloch
Now, whether or not that's the benefit of of the unit and, the mission that's being accomplished, that's what the leader gets paid for, is to make that decision on the ground.

00;11;36;24 - 00;11;45;04
Craig Andrews
Well, and I'm a little bit curious about that. The I mean, from my perspective, it wasn't torture. Nobody nobody got hurt.

00;11;45;08 - 00;11;46;01
Oakland McCulloch
All right.

00;11;46;04 - 00;11;51;29
Craig Andrews
You know, maybe pissed his pants, but, you know, that's about it. What's the harm.

00;11;52;02 - 00;12;17;08
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah. Well, I mean, then you take it further. What? You know, then we went to waterboarding. Now that that's a different story. You know, it's so, you know. Hey, I guess I guess the problem is, where do you draw it once you start down that slope, where does it start? I guess that would be the argument that people would have against doing what that marine did is if you allow that, then what's the next thing that you're going to allow?

00;12;17;10 - 00;12;41;19
Oakland McCulloch
again, I think, you know, the leaders on the ground have to maintain control of what's going on, and that's what they get paid to do is to make those decisions. And I guess the the thing that we have to do is we have to trust the leaders that we put in charge. unless they've done something that that is illegal or against the rules of engagement.

00;12;41;22 - 00;12;50;26
Oakland McCulloch
And maybe that was, part of the I was not in Afghanistan. So I don't know what the rules of engagement there were or maybe that was addressed, I don't know.

00;12;50;29 - 00;13;07;21
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And I think that's I mean, war is a kind of an interesting situation. It's, you know, we I think we have this notion of we're going to fight dignified, gentlemanly wars and.

00;13;07;23 - 00;13;09;18
Oakland McCulloch
The enemy has a say.

00;13;09;21 - 00;13;13;18
Craig Andrews
The enemy has a say. But war by nature is a horrible thing.

00;13;13;21 - 00;13;25;24
Oakland McCulloch
It is absolutely anybody who who believes otherwise is, sadly mistaken. I don't care what what. There's no such thing as a nice war that doesn't exist.

00;13;25;26 - 00;13;40;23
Craig Andrews
Well, and and we believe it's easy to fall into the belief that there are easy, perfect choices. And, a story from the first Gulf War that I think of often is, Or are you familiar with the book Bravo two zero?

00;13;40;25 - 00;13;43;06
Oakland McCulloch
I've seen it. I have not read it.

00;13;43;09 - 00;14;08;20
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So it's a British SAS patrol that was dropped in in northern Iraq. And if you think back to the first Gulf War, Hussein was launching Scud missiles into Israel, and he was trying to draw Israel into the war, because if Israel if Israel fired a shot in anger, then the coalition would fall apart, right. And he was launching Scuds into civilian areas, hitting women and children, non-combat.

00;14;08;20 - 00;14;11;18
Oakland McCulloch
He was doing it in to Saudi Arabia as well.

00;14;11;20 - 00;14;35;17
Craig Andrews
That's right. I'd forgotten about that. And so this SAS patrol, their job was to go drop in the northern Iraq in the middle of the night, find the communication line that was giving the targeting information to the Scuds and break the communication line. And so the general nature of their mission was stop these Scuds from being fired at women and children.

00;14;35;20 - 00;14;54;01
Craig Andrews
Well, they drop in the middle of the night. They get in like a little culvert or something and just lay low until morning. And as the sun's coming up, they hear some bells clanking. And before they know it, there's a little 11 year old boy staring down at them. You know, sheepherder or goat herder, one of the other.

00;14;54;04 - 00;15;17;12
Craig Andrews
And they have about a half, a half a second to make a decision. Do we kill this 11 year old boy and preserve the mission, or do we not kill them and and not complete the mission right. Abort. And of course, abort. You know, where do they. They were dropped him by helicopter. They're not, you know, they're deep into enemy territory.

00;15;17;14 - 00;15;48;12
Craig Andrews
And, and so they didn't. But the boy, the Iraqi army was 300 yards away. The boy ran to the Iraqi army, alerted the army, and when the happening was the mission aborted anyway. And their job then was to try to get into Syria alive. a couple of them died from exposure in the desert. you know, 2 or 3 escaped into Syria and and the rest got captured.

00;15;48;15 - 00;16;10;01
Craig Andrews
But the impact was Scud missiles kept going into Israel, targeting women and children. And I look at that as one of the imperfect choices of war. Do we kill an 11 year old boy to save women and children? Or do we not kill the 11 year old boy and allow the continued targeting of women and children? There's not.

00;16;10;03 - 00;16;12;05
Craig Andrews
It's a horrible choice.

00;16;12;07 - 00;16;15;13
Oakland McCulloch
It is.

00;16;15;16 - 00;16;16;03
Craig Andrews
And I don't think.

00;16;16;03 - 00;16;18;15
Oakland McCulloch
People I'm glad I didn't have to make that choice.

00;16;18;18 - 00;16;46;09
Craig Andrews
Exactly, exactly. So, and and I think that's something we need to remember when we're, when we're engaging in the war, we are putting often very young people in these positions to make these choices, to make imperfect choices. Yeah. And, you know, based on the choice they make, it haunts their dreams for the rest of their life.

00;16;46;13 - 00;17;00;14
Oakland McCulloch
It does. It absolutely does. You know, one of the things I always say is that we do a great job of training people to go to war. We do a horrible job. Once they come back to help them recover from the things we've asked them to do.

00;17;00;17 - 00;17;24;09
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So let's kind of go back to the rules of engagement. you know, they're obviously there for a good reason. and sometimes I get crossed. I mean, so let's let's go all the way back, and this isn't this, I guess, is rule of engagement. If we go all the way back to the Korean War, MacArthur.

00;17;24;11 - 00;17;56;20
Craig Andrews
Yeah. MacArthur was a warrior. And, you know, he knew we're going to fight the Chinese now or we're going to fight the Chinese later. You know, unfortunately, the president didn't agree with them, and he openly disagreed with the president, which got him fired right. And so let's talk about that from a leadership, position. You know, people are working in companies and they have to figure out their own rules of engagement, and they have to figure out what decisions they're authorized to make and what decisions they're not authorized to make.

00;17;56;21 - 00;18;01;09
Craig Andrews
Right. What would you recommend to them?

00;18;01;12 - 00;18;24;25
Oakland McCulloch
So the same thing, I don't care what profession you are, if you're a leader, then it comes down to this. You know, when you got to make a decision on whether or not to do something you're being told to do or, asking somebody else. I always say tell people to just keep this in mind. You got to like who looks back at you every morning in the mirror.

00;18;24;28 - 00;18;48;07
Oakland McCulloch
So, you know, you got to I that's the way I always look at it. Am I going to regret this decision for the rest of my life? and and here's the thing. And I think we've forgotten this. And I see a lot of leaders who are who aren't doing this nowadays. Is it? If you disagree with it, then you have to not do it.

00;18;48;07 - 00;19;06;19
Oakland McCulloch
And if that means you lose your job, then you lose your job. But once you agree and you do it now, you own that decision and you own the responsibility for doing whatever it is that you did, even if you were told to do it. That doesn't matter now. What you're you own it now if you decide to do it.

00;19;06;21 - 00;19;15;14
Oakland McCulloch
So, you know, you you just got you got to be able to live with the decisions that you make. So think about it that way. When when you got to make those tough decisions.

00;19;15;16 - 00;19;44;22
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. Well and you know, we talked in in advance, about a few decisions people have faced, that, that you've faced specifically. And let's start with, let's go back to the first Gulf War, the great. You know, one of the things, one of the weapons that we knew Hussein had was, anthrax, which is a nerve agent.

00;19;44;24 - 00;19;55;09
Craig Andrews
And, you know, for those that don't know, you get hit with anthrax. My understanding is if you get hit with anthrax, you you flop around like a fish and defecate on yourself until you eventually die.

00;19;55;11 - 00;19;56;12
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah, right.

00;19;56;15 - 00;20;18;18
Craig Andrews
And the, And so the military came up with this little anthrax pill that, you know, at least they enlisted, were required to take that pill, or they would be court martialed. And the thought was, let's put a small dose of anthrax, into the body to help build up resistance to it. do you remember that?

00;20;18;20 - 00;20;37;23
Oakland McCulloch
I do, I remember that that pill, whether or not it actually had any effectiveness or not, who knows? I mean, it it was probably just like a lot of things that they give soldiers experimental. but I, I did I remember taking that pill. I do.

00;20;37;25 - 00;20;48;11
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Did, what was the general consensus, you know, so I wasn't in theater. I was ever in Japan eating sushi. What was what was the discussion there in theater?

00;20;48;14 - 00;21;09;14
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah. People weren't happy about it, I can tell you. And I'm sure that there's lots of people who who in some way or another got got through without taking it. but but yeah. And I, I was if, if I had to do over again I'm not sure that I would take it, but but at that point I did.

00;21;09;16 - 00;21;31;19
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, and, you know, I've met people with Gulf War syndrome and you know, and they haven't totally nailed down the, you know, the cause of that, which is interesting. We we understand a lot of things medically, but we haven't been able to figure out the cause of Gulf War syndrome. But I know one of the potential causes that have been listed is actually that anthrax pill.

00;21;31;19 - 00;22;00;26
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah, that and, the oil, the fumes from the oil fields burning and, you know, probably lots of different things. I know the depleted uranium rounds that we used, all those kinds of things. And maybe it's a combination of all of them together, you know, maybe the people who got the Gulf War syndrome syndrome had exposure to 2 or 3 of those things, whereas people like myself, who I don't think I suffer from anything like that.

00;22;00;28 - 00;22;21;25
Oakland McCulloch
I may maybe I only got exposed to one of them rather than 2 or 3 of them. I mean, who knows? But it's certainly there. I think it's certainly a real thing. and there is a cause, I have no doubt, but I don't know what it is. But my guess is that it's exposure to 2 or 3 of the the things that they think it is.

00;22;21;27 - 00;22;38;13
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, and for those aren't familiar with the depleted uranium, we were, we were using depleted uranium rounds. That was in the armor piercing rounds. Right. That would go right through the was it T-72 tanks that we were?

00;22;38;20 - 00;23;00;19
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah. Whichever tanks I mean, it went through all the tanks. And it wasn't just, the Army's tanks used in that, I think the Air Force used it like the A-10, I think uses depleted uranium rounds or, so I it was there was plenty, plenty of deplete depleted uranium around, the battlefield, no doubt about it.

00;23;00;21 - 00;23;12;16
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, and you say if you had the choice to do it again, you know, you probably wouldn't have taken it in many ways. You have that choice again, you know, here in the last few years when they introduced the Covid vaccine.

00;23;12;18 - 00;23;33;23
Oakland McCulloch
I did, I was not in the military, although, well, you know, the military obviously put out a bunch of people who decided not to take it. I was a Department of Army civilian at that point, and I refused to take the vaccine. and they were going to fire me. and it just it the Supreme Court stepped in and said, no, you can't.

00;23;33;23 - 00;23;39;25
Oakland McCulloch
Otherwise they probably would have fired me. And I was willing to live with that.

00;23;39;27 - 00;23;53;01
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And that's I, you know, and let's, let's explore that a little bit because that's a hard choice. There were there were people who were 18 years, 19 years into their career.

00;23;53;04 - 00;23;53;24
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah.

00;23;53;26 - 00;23;58;29
Craig Andrews
You know, almost at retirement. And either they had several.

00;23;58;29 - 00;24;00;14
Oakland McCulloch
Of them like that.

00;24;00;17 - 00;24;02;14
Craig Andrews
Yeah. What happened to them.

00;24;02;16 - 00;24;22;23
Oakland McCulloch
They decided to take the, the shot. the ones that I know, because they just said they just couldn't throw away 19 years, they had to get to the 20 year retirement mark. So they that was a decision they made, you know, and and again, individual decision, they have to they have to figure out what their situations are.

00;24;22;26 - 00;24;47;07
Oakland McCulloch
I was lucky I was in a position where I didn't have no I was six months from my ten year retirement from government service. but I would I, I wasn't willing to take that shot for that ten year retirement. So I made that decision, you know, and and one of the reasons I, I was adamant is that I could make that decision.

00;24;47;09 - 00;25;00;12
Oakland McCulloch
And I felt like it was my responsibility to, to make to make a stand, to stand up and say what you're doing is wrong. And and so that's what I did.

00;25;00;14 - 00;25;05;29
Craig Andrews
And it gets a little bit harder, you know, when you're a commander is so does.

00;25;06;01 - 00;25;14;07
Oakland McCulloch
And they they were removing people from command immediately. If they didn't get to get the vaccine.

00;25;14;09 - 00;25;40;16
Craig Andrews
It what would you recommend? I mean this is just tough. And this is a tough question where there's probably no you know, I don't know. It's just a really tough question. Yeah. You know, if you were still in command in the Army, leading soldiers and command came down, said, you need to get all of your troops vaccinated.

00;25;40;18 - 00;25;42;19
Craig Andrews
How would you handle that?

00;25;42;21 - 00;25;53;20
Oakland McCulloch
I would tell whoever told me that that is an individual decision. If they want to get vaccinated, than they will. If they don't, then you have to deal with that. But I'm not going to force somebody to get vaccinated.

00;25;53;22 - 00;25;56;25
Craig Andrews
You know.

00;25;56;27 - 00;26;04;08
Oakland McCulloch
And I'm sure there would have been repercussions for, for me on on that answer. But that's the answer I would have given.

00;26;04;11 - 00;26;13;02
Craig Andrews
Well, that comes back to what you said earlier, that when you wake up, wake up in the morning, you look in the mirror. You have to be happy with who you say you do.

00;26;13;05 - 00;26;39;24
Oakland McCulloch
I mean, that's really what it comes down to. in my opinion, that you have to be comfortable for the rest of your life with the decisions that you make. And again, we all make bad decisions. We all make mistakes. I got that, but, but for the most part, that's how I make decisions. Is am I going to be am I going to regret this decision for the rest of my life?

00;26;39;24 - 00;26;58;18
Oakland McCulloch
And if the answer is yes, then I then I, I'm willing to make a stand. And if that means that something happens to me, then I guess that that's I'm happy to do that. And I've been that way most of all my career. So some would say that's why I retired a lieutenant colonel.

00;26;58;20 - 00;27;04;19
Craig Andrews
And not well. And that's and that's a factor. Right.

00;27;04;22 - 00;27;06;14
Oakland McCulloch
I think it was. Yeah.

00;27;06;16 - 00;27;28;27
Craig Andrews
You know, you look at who they pin stars on and, and I'm not asking you to share your opinion here, but I look at I look at people they pin stars on, and I. I don't want them fighting my wars. I want the people that are kicking out, you know, trusting you. You've caught for those are, you know, Chesty Puller.

00;27;29;00 - 00;27;54;14
Craig Andrews
Phenomenal marine legend. Yeah. Thought in the, you know, in Korean War, World War two. But in the Korean War scored the highest kill ratio of any battle in U.S. history up until the first Gulf War, which I called war by Nintendo. And, but yeah, Jesse Puller said, take me to the brig. I want to meet the real Marines.

00;27;54;17 - 00;27;55;26
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah.

00;27;55;28 - 00;28;11;13
Craig Andrews
And, you know, he was a warrior. You know, he was a warrior that understood, you know, some of the some of the best warriors you're going to find out there are not the ones that are on the career path. You know, they're going to get, you know, stars pinned on their shoulders.

00;28;11;16 - 00;28;17;17
Oakland McCulloch
I would I would say Patton was in the same mold, as Chesty Puller. Yeah.

00;28;17;19 - 00;28;41;23
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And and Patton, phenomenal leader I have, I have, book wars, I know it where his wife compiled his textbook. Yeah. And, you know, there's so many leadership lessons in that book. I mean, some of my favorite quotes, you know, people that struggle, understanding the difference between strategy and tactics. Patton explained it better than anybody I know.

00;28;41;26 - 00;28;59;26
Craig Andrews
And he just said that strategy is like a steamroller. You you go in a direction and you don't change, he said. For tactics, don't use steamroller strategy. Attack weaknesses, right? Grab him by the nose and kick them in the pants. Yeah, I imagine the 1940s. That was quite a vulgar statement. But yeah.

00;28;59;29 - 00;29;05;10
Oakland McCulloch
That well, he he wasn't afraid to say vulgar things, that's for sure.

00;29;05;13 - 00;29;16;29
Craig Andrews
But he was he was effective. He was very effective. And he was I don't know if you will. You probably know this. He was the only Allied commander that Field Marshal Rommel actually feared.

00;29;17;01 - 00;29;48;07
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And another phenomenal and a phenomenal leader, Field Marshal Rommel. But, Yeah. Who who stood up and paid the ultimate price for standing up for what he believed? if you if you believe the stories and I do, that he was killed because he he didn't he didn't plan the attempted assassination of Hitler, but he knew what was going on, and he didn't try to stop it.

00;29;48;09 - 00;30;10;12
Oakland McCulloch
So he made that decision and I think, you know, if if you could ask him today, he'd say I made the right decision. So I don't know. I mean, you know, decisions are one of those things. We just have to understand that as leaders, we are responsible for those decisions. You can't pick and choose what you want to be responsible for.

00;30;10;13 - 00;30;32;23
Oakland McCulloch
Leadership doesn't work that way. Although there are a lot of leaders in our country in world today who believe that's what it is. it is it. You have to own the decisions you make. And if you make a mistake, which we all are going to, then you have to own that mistake. And as long as you do that, people are willing to forgive you for mistakes.

00;30;32;23 - 00;30;57;14
Oakland McCulloch
If you say, hey, I messed up, this is how we're going to fix that. And in the future, let's let's reflect on it so we don't make that same mistake in the future. Maybe we can prevent some future leader from making the same type of mistake by reflecting on it and putting in some procedures, some policy, some general rules that would help future leaders not make the same mistakes.

00;30;57;16 - 00;31;19;08
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. And and you said something really key there. And I know it's absolutely true. It's been, it's been true for me in in life, in business and everything is. In general, people are forgiving if you step forward and admit your mistake.

00;31;19;11 - 00;31;20;10
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah.

00;31;20;12 - 00;31;48;03
Craig Andrews
People are willing to forgive that. I mean, years ago I worked for a company. I worked for a plus that would promise anything to Siemens. Siemens was our customer, and he would promise things that at the time he was making the promise, he knew we couldn't do it. And it was my job when when we failed to deliver on the things that he promised, it was my job to go and tell the Germans.

00;31;48;05 - 00;31;52;03
Craig Andrews
And I got extremely good at delivering bad news.

00;31;52;09 - 00;31;56;12
Oakland McCulloch
Right. They probably didn't like seeing you because they knew what was coming.

00;31;56;14 - 00;32;21;23
Craig Andrews
Well, it's it's funny, you know, actually, this is really key. I felt horrible again and again and again. I just felt like we were treating them horribly. It it really depressed me. There were there were the first meeting where we were going to agree to a bunch of things that we knew we couldn't do. I found a real quiet way to get out of that meeting and I just say, hey guys, sounds like you have it covered.

00;32;21;26 - 00;32;47;10
Craig Andrews
I'll be four down, four doors down if you need me, come get me. But I think you guys have this all figured out. Yeah, yeah. And quietly I'm like, you haven't figured out wrong, but, you know, I can't. I can't change your mind on that. But, but the very first thing I would do when I had to deliver bad news to Siemens, I would just come out and say, guys, you know, I've got some bad news.

00;32;47;10 - 00;33;17;03
Craig Andrews
We're not going to meet the commitment that we made to you. And I had a formula that would go through that and breaking it down, that resonated well with the Germans. I think it resonates well with most people. But when you say that they didn't look forward to seeing me, I remember one day I'm sitting at my desk and phone rings, and I look at the caller I.D. and it's phone number from Germany, and one of the engineers from Siemens and I pick it up and answer him like, hi, Reiners, you know what's going on?

00;33;17;04 - 00;33;45;19
Craig Andrews
I mean, because he never called me. You know, we would usually email and we'd Cepa and this is back when international calling was expensive. And, and he said, Craig, my wife left me, you know, he was going through a divorce. And in the tough time of all the people, he reached out and called. He called me.

00;33;45;22 - 00;34;09;28
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah. I think probably, you know, I don't know him. I don't know the situation completely, but just that part of the story tells me that he trusted you, that you, that you were somebody who was honest, was going to give him some honest advice, some honest feedback. you know that that's the other thing that leaders do is they're honest with their people.

00;34;09;28 - 00;34;28;09
Oakland McCulloch
You know, when you got bad news, you got doesn't get any better by lying about it or hiding it. You know, you got to come out and say it. And as long as you do that, then people still trust you and that. And that's what leadership is about. It's about trust, plain and simple. It's about trust. And if people don't trust you, then they're not going to follow you.

00;34;28;15 - 00;34;48;21
Oakland McCulloch
They may still do what they what you tell them to do because they have to. You're the boss, or they have to quit their job or get fired, but they're not going to they're not going to truly follow you, which there is a difference between following somebody, wanting to follow somebody and doing what they're telling you to do, because you have to know well.

00;34;48;21 - 00;35;15;29
Craig Andrews
And circling back to your discussion about, you know, you have to be you have to make the tough choices. You have to look yourself in the mirror. same job. We had a product that was being produced in the Philippines, and there was some issue with production. My boss came to me and said, Craig, I need I need you to give me a name of one of your guys to send to the Philippines, to go work on this production issue.

00;35;16;01 - 00;35;45;15
Craig Andrews
And I said, okay, let me think about it. And I walked away and, I was really uncomfortable about it. And, this was right after 911 and the State Department had a travel advisory saying, don't go to the Philippines because they are busy up, know, right. You know, and thought about it for a bad day. And I went back to my boss and I said, you know, I've lived in the Philippines.

00;35;45;18 - 00;36;07;16
Craig Andrews
It's most dangerous place I've ever lived. It you have to be really have your wits about you to stay safe. There and say, our company policy says that we will not travel to places where the State Department has a travel advisory and State Department has a travel advisory to the Philippines and said, so I'm not going to give you one of my guys names.

00;36;07;16 - 00;36;12;06
Craig Andrews
If you need a name, it's going to be me. And they're going to be conditions.

00;36;12;09 - 00;36;14;13
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah.

00;36;14;15 - 00;36;35;20
Craig Andrews
And that was scary in the moment, you know, because, you know, maybe, you know, I'd be labeled a mess fit. Well I always am. But the you know, I'm a labeled a misfit. But back to your point. I couldn't get up the next morning. Yeah, I couldn't somewhat. I mean, as long as one of my guys was in the Philippines.

00;36;35;22 - 00;36;41;25
Craig Andrews
I mean, when I went there, when the Marine Corps sent me there, they taught us how to stay out of trouble.

00;36;41;27 - 00;36;42;24
Oakland McCulloch
Right.

00;36;42;27 - 00;37;03;22
Craig Andrews
And we had some natural quipping that they, you know, your average tech worker doesn't have that right. And but they taught us how to stay out of trouble. I could I would be in stitches every day that one of my guys was in the Philippines wondering, is he making smart choices? Is he being aware of his surroundings as he's staying safe?

00;37;03;25 - 00;37;27;25
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah, well, you know, part of being a leader should be having concern for the people that that you have the privilege to lead. And it is a privilege to lead people. And and so, you know, you want it. Leaders who are taking care of their people, who care about the people and understand that decisions they make absolutely have an impact on that person's life.

00;37;27;27 - 00;38;04;14
Oakland McCulloch
even if it's not life and death, which, you know, most time it isn't life and death, but it's still their career, their families. how how how it affects their family life, how it affects them as a person. Those are things that leaders have to take into account or should. And and again, that, that should, should be part of the decision making process whenever you got to make a decision, as it was in your case, and I think you made the right, the right choice there, that's the choice I would have made without a doubt, if you want, if you're going to send somebody, you're sending me not one of my people.

00;38;04;16 - 00;38;28;10
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, and one of the things that worked for my benefit was a company had a policy that we didn't send people to countries where the State Department had a travel advisory. I'd imagine you've run into that where somebody gives you an order that you have to carry out, and sometimes the, you know, your way around that order is it violates some policy that you have to go find.

00;38;28;17 - 00;38;29;23
Craig Andrews
Have you had that happen?

00;38;29;25 - 00;38;52;16
Oakland McCulloch
I haven't, but I've, I've known of people who have had that happen to them. either you know, I do. I have certain I use this I always tell people this, you know, when I was running my Army ROTC program, I had a lady that worked for me as my HRA. My human resource administrator, and she was kind of the, you know, she knew all the rules.

00;38;52;16 - 00;39;11;13
Oakland McCulloch
She knew all the regulations about what we could or couldn't do and how how it all had to be done. And there were several times when I needed to help a cadet that was in my program. And when I went to her, I said, this cadet has this issue and this is what I want to do. And she'd say, you can't do that.

00;39;11;13 - 00;39;30;00
Oakland McCulloch
It's against the regulations. And I say, well, I don't care. I mean, regulations are there and they're there for a reason. I got that. But, I refused to let a rule or a regulation prevent me from taking care of somebody that I'm responsible for, I said, and I'll, I'll put it in writing for you that I told you.

00;39;30;05 - 00;39;44;21
Oakland McCulloch
You told me that it was against regulations, and I told you to do it anyway. I don't have a problem with that one bit, so that if anything happens, it comes back to me, not you. I'm the leader. I'm responsible. But I'm making that decision, and that's what we're going to do.

00;39;44;23 - 00;40;10;11
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, and let me ask this. And you know, the context of, you know, you said the reason you retired, the lieutenant colonel is, you know, you're a little bit of a, you know, troublemaker. You weren't, you weren't doing the behavior that would result in pinning stars on your on your shoulders. Yeah. And the,

00;40;10;14 - 00;40;30;15
Craig Andrews
How would you how would you advise people to process that trade off? Because I don't care what job you're in, even if you have your own company, at some point you're going to have to make a decision that, you know, if you go one way, it's going to benefit you financially. If you or positionally, if you go another way, it won't.

00;40;30;18 - 00;40;32;25
Craig Andrews
Yeah. How do people process that.

00;40;32;27 - 00;40;59;27
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah. Well you know I, I was I was lucky as a kid. I mean I, I kind of grew up with this concept because as a kid, my father used to tell me that life is about decisions and consequences. And every decision you make as a consequence, good or bad, but every decision you make has a consequence. And he said, and you got to get to the point in your life where you're making decisions that give you good consequences.

00;40;59;29 - 00;41;24;05
Oakland McCulloch
Now, I guess you got to define what a good consequences in this situation. I wake up, I get promoted, I get, you know, the benefits of better pay, better position, whatever, or and I don't necessarily like the decision I made or I don't get that position or that promotion. But yet I every morning I can get up and look at myself in the mirror.

00;41;24;07 - 00;41;40;01
Oakland McCulloch
And, you know, the rule that my father gave me as a kid was really simple. He said, every time you're going to make a decision, think about this. Would you want your mother to know that you're about to do what you're about to do? And if the answer is yes, it's probably a pretty good decision. Go ahead and do it.

00;41;40;01 - 00;41;57;13
Oakland McCulloch
If the answer is no, then you probably need to rethink that decision. And so, you know, obviously I don't think about my mother anymore. I want to make a decision. But I think about, am I going to regret this? Am I going to think about this and wish I had done something else in the future? And it doesn't always work.

00;41;57;13 - 00;42;11;27
Oakland McCulloch
I mean, sometimes you make a decision with the best intentions. Maybe you didn't have all the information or whatever. You make a decision and you do regret it later in life, but for the most part that has worked pretty well for me.

00;42;11;29 - 00;42;39;25
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. You know, Jack Welch, the, former CEO of GE, his executives would come to him and they'd say, hey, I'm thinking about doing such and such. And I think part of what made Jack Welch a good leader was he he didn't answer their question. They were winning permission. And instead of giving him permission, he'd come back and he'd say, well, if you did that, and it was printed on the front page of the Wall Street Journal, would you be okay with that?

00;42;39;27 - 00;42;43;28
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah. That's it. It kind of the same rule that my father had.

00;42;44;04 - 00;43;07;03
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I ran into something recently. I was in this, kind of, an organization. I'll leave it a little bit vague. I was in an organization, been in it for a number of years, and finally decided it's time for me to leave, and I find out that they have a minimum 90 day exit.

00;43;07;03 - 00;43;33;05
Craig Andrews
You know, you have to give 90 days notice. And so they're going to still bill me for another three months. And, you know, my personality is okay. I know that's a rule, but I'm still going to go back and ask. And I go back and ask. I say considering my longevity, I mean, I just didn't pop in here yesterday, considering my longevity in this organization would be impossible to, you know, let me go ahead and, you know, stop immediately.

00;43;33;08 - 00;43;54;08
Craig Andrews
And the guy came back with like the craziest answer of why they don't do it. And I looked at it and I was like, that's just completely B.S.. And I was like, you know, that's a perfect that's a perfect sign that you have a bad policy when you have to give me that answer. The you know, what the honest answer is.

00;43;54;11 - 00;43;55;22
Craig Andrews
Now we just want your money.

00;43;55;25 - 00;43;57;26
Oakland McCulloch
And that's it.

00;43;57;28 - 00;44;06;11
Craig Andrews
And if you can't give the honest answer in that situation, you need to step back and question, are we doing the right thing?

00;44;06;11 - 00;44;07;13
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah, absolutely.

00;44;07;13 - 00;44;36;11
Craig Andrews
Like and so you've made the point a few times. Sometimes we do the wrong thing. Sometimes, you know, sometimes we do the wrong thing out of right motives. Sometimes we do the wrong thing out of wrong motives. And as a leader, there's few things more gut wrenching than realizing you made the wrong decision for your troops, for your employees, for those that your family, your family.

00;44;36;13 - 00;44;38;12
Craig Andrews
What do you do at that moment?

00;44;38;14 - 00;45;05;09
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah, you just got to be honest. I mean, it really comes down to that. You got to say, okay, it's embarrassing. It's not fun. It's not whatever. But it it doesn't get any better by not coming up and being honest and saying, I made a mistake. It only gets worse because again, the trust just starts to erode. And and that's what all relationships, all relationships are based on trust.

00;45;05;12 - 00;45;24;02
Oakland McCulloch
And if that trust is gone, which it is in this country right now, I mean, in just about every profession, American people just don't have trust in them anymore. in our government, in our a lot of our businesses, without that, things start to break down.

00;45;24;05 - 00;45;50;27
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, and when my worries for our country is, there are a few areas that that when people, when people start losing trust in the system of elections, when people start losing trust in the judicial system, that's when you start seeing anarchy. That's when you start seeing really, really bad things.

00;45;50;27 - 00;45;52;24
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah, ugly things.

00;45;52;26 - 00;46;19;04
Craig Andrews
And nothing to laugh at, you know, regardless of what side you are on, these things, it should grieve you that the trust is lost in these areas, and we need to come together and do what it takes to rebuild trust in in laws of government, because when it's lost and people feel hopeless, bad things happen.

00;46;19;04 - 00;46;44;22
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah. You know, and it always kills me when I hear people just throwing out the word civil war. And, you know, those type of things. So obviously you've never seen what happens during a civil war. I have, I mean, I've been in Bosnia, I've been in Kosovo. I mean, it is ugly and that is not something that it's not a road we want to go down.

00;46;44;24 - 00;46;47;29
Craig Andrews
Well, our own civil war is still our bloodiest war by far.

00;46;48;05 - 00;46;50;23
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah.

00;46;50;25 - 00;46;51;16
Craig Andrews
Yeah.

00;46;51;18 - 00;46;54;07
Oakland McCulloch
Not nothing good comes from that.

00;46;54;09 - 00;47;19;07
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, and let me ask, let me wrap up with this. So you had to make a tough choice in regards to the, you know, you taking the vaccine. you know, one of the areas where trust has been lost is in, you know, the medical system and what have you. And. You know, my hope is that we learn from that.

00;47;19;09 - 00;47;26;15
Craig Andrews
What do you recommend people do moving forward to rebuild trust in that area?

00;47;26;17 - 00;47;55;20
Oakland McCulloch
Wow. that's a tough question. I think the the biggest problem with the our medical system right now is it is it is based on them making money. And I think that, part of the problem is because the government is subsidy, anytime the government subsidizes anything, it it it quickly becomes corrupt and, and, and money oriented and people do things just for the money.

00;47;55;23 - 00;48;20;03
Oakland McCulloch
If you look at education is one of those that I think money, government money has corrupted our education system as well. but I think, I think we, we got to get back to first of all, I think people have to do their own research because it's obvious that that companies are making decisions that are not in the best interest of people.

00;48;20;06 - 00;48;57;03
Oakland McCulloch
it's they're making it in the best interest of them making money. so people got to do their own research and believe what? What? Figure out what to believe. but I think we got to get back to leaders making good decisions based on the betterment. Betterment of everybody, not just themselves. And I think that we are far from that in this in this system right now in, in America, we have way too many leaders who are making decisions for their benefit, not for the benefit of the people that work for them, or the benefit of the people that are serving.

00;48;57;05 - 00;49;20;03
Oakland McCulloch
Whether, you know, it's a pharmaceutical company making drugs or it's Congress or it's whoever, we got to get back to leaders, understand that it's not about them. It's about the people that they have the privilege to serve. And that's what a leadership position is. It's service. And we've forgotten that, too. I think.

00;49;20;05 - 00;49;30;04
Craig Andrews
I can't think of a better point to end on. Leadership is service, and we need to get back to that. Oakland, thank you for sharing that on leaders and legacies.

00;49;30;06 - 00;49;35;26
Oakland McCulloch
Yeah, well, thanks for having me Craig. I've enjoyed it.

00;49;35;26 - 00;50;04;22
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Alize for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this episode on social media.

00;50;04;24 - 00;50;28;04
Craig Andrews
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00;50;28;06 - 00;52;38;20
Craig Andrews
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