HR Huntsman, founder of Your Leader's Edge, shares his transformative journey from a tumultuous childhood to becoming a beacon of leadership and mentorship. Huntsman discusses how his difficult upbringing fueled his desire to invest positively in young leaders and the broader community. His leadership philosophy centers on unlocking human potential, fostering gratitude, and encouraging generosity—principles he believes are pivotal for personal and professional success.

Throughout the discussion, Huntsman emphasizes the importance of building teams and developing leadership within organizations, rather than relying solely on top-down directives. He advocates for "leadership by inquiry," a method that promotes healthy conflict and innovation through asking insightful questions and nurturing a culture of curiosity and respect.

Listeners gain insights into how Huntsman's approach to leadership not only changes lives but also enhances organizational effectiveness. His life's work illustrates that overcoming personal challenges can lead to profound opportunities to influence and mentor others, proving that every individual holds the potential to make significant impacts.

Want to learn more about HR's work? Check out their website at https://yourleadersedge.com/.

Connect with HR on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/hr-huntsman/.

Key Points with Time Stamps:

• [00:00:51 - 00:01:30] Introduction to HR Huntsman: Introduction of HR Huntsman, discussing his background and the focus of the podcast on leadership.
• [00:04:04 - 00:05:57] Huntsman's Personal Background: Huntsman shares his challenging childhood and how it shaped his leadership philosophy.
• [00:08:39 - 00:09:55] Leadership Philosophy and Principles: Huntsman details the core lessons he learned from his mentor that have influenced his leadership style.
• [00:17:00 - 00:19:09] Impact of Leadership on Personal and Professional Growth: Discussion on how effective leadership transforms organizations by focusing on team development and healthy conflict.
• [00:32:59 - 00:33:26] Closing Remarks and Call to Action: Craig Andrews wraps up the podcast with a call for leaders to share their stories and contribute to the ongoing dialogue about legacy and leadership.

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment of my career.

00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;10
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on the show.

00;00;51;10 - 00;00;59;17
Craig Andrews
Today I went welcome. HR Huntsman is the founder of Your Leader's Edge. It is a executive.

00;00;59;17 - 00;01;22;02
Craig Andrews
coaching and business strategy organization. HR has been able to invest in leaders, especially young leaders. And it all ties back to kind of his founding story, where he came from. And we're going to go into that. But it's really powerful and now he shares many of of life and leadership principles.

00;01;22;02 - 00;01;30;22
Craig Andrews
He's learned over 30 years of leadership with other leaders. So I'm really looking forward to today's conversation. HR welcome.

00;01;30;24 - 00;01;35;00
HR Huntsman
Craig. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the invitation. My friend.

00;01;35;02 - 00;01;36;14
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So,

00;01;36;14 - 00;01;40;08
Craig Andrews
so you're based out in Washington and,

00;01;40;08 - 00;01;42;29
Craig Andrews
did you grow up in Washington?

00;01;43;01 - 00;01;48;15
HR Huntsman
No, I grew up in southern New Mexico. Actually got to got to Washington via the Air Force.

00;01;48;17 - 00;01;51;10
Craig Andrews
Where we're in southern New Mexico.

00;01;51;13 - 00;02;10;21
HR Huntsman
So I was born in Tularosa, New Mexico, which almost no one knows where it is. And my childhood was in Alamogordo, right outside of White Sands and where the Trinity Site nuclear test facility was. And then in my junior high, high school years, moved up the mountains to Ruidoso, to Mexico. That's where I graduated high school.

00;02;10;23 - 00;02;14;10
Craig Andrews
You know, I've never been there. I've really wanted to go,

00;02;14;10 - 00;02;24;10
Craig Andrews
I think they had some fires followed by some flooding this year that that's probably, I should say, I make me wait a few more years as they kind of rebuild things.

00;02;24;12 - 00;02;28;29
HR Huntsman
That's right. My hometown was devastated. First by fire, then by flood, for sure.

00;02;29;01 - 00;02;40;20
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So maybe you can settle this dispute. My wife and I disagree about how that that town's name is pronounced. I wouldn't call it, the widow. So she says no, it's real. Dozer.

00;02;40;22 - 00;02;50;28
HR Huntsman
So. Why people is going to say Ruidoso? Locals are going to say Ruidoso.

00;02;51;00 - 00;02;56;06
Craig Andrews
Yeah. From everything I see, it's like this little gem in the mountains. It's got,

00;02;56;06 - 00;03;00;21
Craig Andrews
you know, not not that far north of the Mexican border. And you guys have a ski.

00;03;00;21 - 00;03;01;25
Craig Andrews
ski site?

00;03;01;28 - 00;03;13;13
HR Huntsman
Absolutely. It's a gorgeous place, I love it. I spend a ton of time in the mountains there. Yeah, we have Ski Apache. It's called Ski Apache. Now 12,003ft.

00;03;13;13 - 00;03;24;08
HR Huntsman
it's the tallest mountain in the southern Rockies. Ruidoso itself is 7000ft. I mean, it's half a mile above Denver. we got,

00;03;24;08 - 00;03;31;07
HR Huntsman
champion know quarter horse racing there. So it's a fantastic, beautiful little town.

00;03;31;10 - 00;03;34;05
Craig Andrews
Wow. Yeah. And,

00;03;34;05 - 00;03;42;12
Craig Andrews
Now I've got to make it out there. That's it's it sounds gorgeous. And it's also where Billy the kids from. Right? When he. And there's.

00;03;42;14 - 00;03;55;05
HR Huntsman
Yeah. Lake Lincoln is about 30 minutes from Ruidoso. Yeah, that's where he was held in the courthouse. He shot us way out of it. The whole Lincoln County war. That. That's all a part of our history, for sure.

00;03;55;07 - 00;04;04;10
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So it sounds like an enchanting place. But you didn't necessarily have an enchanting childhood.

00;04;04;13 - 00;04;27;10
HR Huntsman
No, actually, I didn't in my childhood has become formative, both in my personal life and in my career. So I grew up in a pretty dysfunctional, alcoholic, abusive home filled with anger. My my biological dad died when he had his first stroke when I was nine months old, and his second stroke was nine years old. I found him dead in the backyard.

00;04;27;10 - 00;04;46;13
HR Huntsman
And there's all kinds of men in and out of my life. He lived with us. For those, you know, eight plus years. My mom took care of him while she remarried and had two other boys with my first stepdad. So that was just a weird looking back on it. Just a weird, strange situation. I didn't know he was my dad until after he passed away.

00;04;46;13 - 00;04;58;17
HR Huntsman
Mom said that was actually your dad to live with this all that time. And so, as you can imagine, there is this big hole where a healthy stepfather, a healthy, healthy dad should be.

00;04;58;17 - 00;05;04;12
HR Huntsman
several stepfathers, all kinds of men in and out of my life. And the reason this is key is because I entered the Air Force.

00;05;04;12 - 00;05;23;22
HR Huntsman
Because I was told kids like you don't go to college were really poor. I was called the white trash and trailer trash most of my childhood. And so I went to the military. I was fairly sharp kid. I was good in computer programing. It's back when computers were just hitting desktops. And anyway, there I met Chaplain John Simmons.

00;05;23;22 - 00;05;57;04
HR Huntsman
He was a captain at the time, retired a lieutenant colonel, and he was the first powerful, positive, male role model I had in my life. And he showed me how to be a good dad and a good husband. And he's the one that convinced me that I had something to give. And I had potential. And from those formative years, I started my first company was 28, and I've spent my entire adult life trying to make the world a better place and, and take some of that pain and invest the young people and invest in the generations coming behind me.

00;05;57;04 - 00;06;07;21
HR Huntsman
That's why I love your podcast, Leadership and Legacies. Those are both passions of mine. So that's how my childhood formed, what I'm doing now, and the philosophy that I bring to life.

00;06;07;23 - 00;06;17;02
Craig Andrews
Yeah. You know, there's a couple things, a couple thoughts that come to mind. One is just the difference between you being in the Air Force, me being in the Marines, when you said,

00;06;17;02 - 00;06;18;02
Craig Andrews
when you said,

00;06;18;02 - 00;06;23;01
Craig Andrews
chaplain and he was a captain, I'm immediately picturing an oh six somewhere with,

00;06;23;01 - 00;06;24;12
Craig Andrews
you know, Eagles on his,

00;06;24;12 - 00;06;26;19
Craig Andrews
because in the Marine Corps, all the chaplains were Navy.

00;06;26;25 - 00;06;29;13
Craig Andrews
And so a Navy captain is, you.

00;06;29;13 - 00;06;30;09
HR Huntsman
Know, gone.

00;06;30;09 - 00;06;31;03
Craig Andrews
Down the other for.

00;06;31;04 - 00;06;33;04
HR Huntsman
Sure. Okay. Got it.

00;06;33;07 - 00;06;49;21
Craig Andrews
But the other thing that really just stood out to me is, you know, this is an election year, and, you know, half the country is saying we're doomed if we don't get, you know, this one guy, the other half is saying we're doomed if we don't get, you know, the other party.

00;06;49;21 - 00;07;07;04
Craig Andrews
and I believe I truly believe that if fathers would spend more time investing in their kids, we could make more change in this country than any politician could ever make for us.

00;07;07;06 - 00;07;30;03
HR Huntsman
I believe, and I say this to all my clients, every time I have the opportunity to get on stage. The greatest waste in human history is the waste of human potential and and acting where you are beginning with the people in your home and acting with kindness and investing in them and believing in them. And then your next sphere of influence, maybe that's at work, or neighbors, or close family friends.

00;07;30;05 - 00;07;47;13
HR Huntsman
And for us that have developed maybe even a larger circle of the sphere of influence and business leaders and regional national leaders beginning one sphere of influence at a time, Craig, and investing in those people and bringing out the best in them. I agree with you. That's the best way to change the world.

00;07;47;16 - 00;07;58;10
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. And I. I mean, I'm going to be voting when the election comes around, but for us to put our hopes in Washington,

00;07;58;10 - 00;08;03;12
Craig Andrews
as opposed to I, I think we can move the world so much more if we start locally.

00;08;03;14 - 00;08;18;09
HR Huntsman
I agree fully, I absolutely agree, yeah. Beginning with your kids, beginning with your marriage, beginning with your nieces and nephews and cousins and and then extending to, in my case, the young leaders around that I get to work with.

00;08;18;09 - 00;08;25;06
HR Huntsman
I get to change the world, one young leader at a time. And I'm honored to do so because because someone gave that to me.

00;08;25;09 - 00;08;39;07
HR Huntsman
Yeah, it's it's directly because of what John did for me that he said, when you get to the chance, you get to give this back, brother. You better give it back. And so here I am.

00;08;39;09 - 00;08;46;11
Craig Andrews
What would you say are the top three lessons that you learned from him that stuck with you?

00;08;46;13 - 00;09;04;22
HR Huntsman
probably what I said already. That the greatest waste in the world is human potential to realize everyone has an opportunity to do something meaningful, to do something powerful, to live a best life. So trying to bring greatness out of people, to help people embrace the best part of their life

00;09;04;22 - 00;09;06;16
HR Huntsman
as a business leader,

00;09;06;16 - 00;09;07;28
HR Huntsman
you know, 1 to 1 coaching.

00;09;07;28 - 00;09;15;04
HR Huntsman
So that's probably number one is that everybody has potential. Everybody has value. Number two would probably be,

00;09;15;04 - 00;09;16;29
HR Huntsman
the power of gratitude.

00;09;16;29 - 00;09;20;20
HR Huntsman
I grew up in a victim complaining, angry house. And,

00;09;20;20 - 00;09;28;26
HR Huntsman
I've tried to break from that and have broken from that. The life that I lead is 180 degrees different than the life I was handed.

00;09;28;29 - 00;09;46;25
HR Huntsman
And it's fueled by gratitude. Gratitude. And then and then probably is generosity to give back, have a generous mindset. Have a generous spirit with your words, beginning with your words, with your attitude, with your actions, your time, finances. I would say those are probably the three biggest lessons I've tried to carry forward.

00;09;46;27 - 00;09;50;04
Craig Andrews
Okay, so everybody has potential. Yep.

00;09;50;04 - 00;09;52;23
Craig Andrews
have a heart of gratitude. Yep.

00;09;52;26 - 00;09;55;00
HR Huntsman
And generosity.

00;09;55;00 - 00;09;56;00
Craig Andrews
And generosity.

00;09;56;00 - 00;09;56;29
HR Huntsman
Thank you. Yeah.

00;09;56;29 - 00;10;05;09
Craig Andrews
If not everybody has potential, have a heart of gratitude and be generous. Yeah. You know, the second one that you touch on,

00;10;05;09 - 00;10;07;01
Craig Andrews
is,

00;10;07;01 - 00;10;33;13
Craig Andrews
there's a lady named Joel and Demetrius who is a used to be a jury consultant, and her claim to fame is she picked the O.J. Simpson jury, and. Well, she said one of the biggest things that she looks for when she's picking jurors is she tries to figure out are they ahead of where they expected to be in life, or are they behind where they expected to be in life and in that?

00;10;33;13 - 00;10;36;13
Craig Andrews
Is that gratitude that you're talking about? Yeah.

00;10;36;15 - 00;10;37;05
HR Huntsman
Interesting.

00;10;37;11 - 00;10;46;05
Craig Andrews
And she said those that are behind where they expected tend to have victim mentalities. They tend to be mean,

00;10;46;05 - 00;10;53;21
Craig Andrews
unforgiving, ungracious and just, you know, loathsome people and good some off the jury.

00;10;53;24 - 00;11;05;16
HR Huntsman
I could see that. Yeah, I can see that. And, you know, the leaders that I work with and have a gratitude and a generous spirit, they're the best learners. They're still humble. They're willing to make,

00;11;05;16 - 00;11;15;28
HR Huntsman
to admit mistakes, are willing to own up to things. They tend to be the most pliable when it comes to learning new things about business and life and leadership development and family, I think.

00;11;16;04 - 00;11;21;27
HR Huntsman
I think it shapes the way we look at life and how we look in the future.

00;11;21;29 - 00;11;30;08
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Wow. Well, I mean, those are some powerful lessons to learn as a young man. And so,

00;11;30;08 - 00;11;35;05
Craig Andrews
did you stand in the Air Force for a long term or did you get out? Move on.

00;11;35;07 - 00;11;37;16
HR Huntsman
Well, got out, moved on. I was.

00;11;38;25 - 00;11;47;24
HR Huntsman
I was heading to an electronics engineering degree because of John. I decided to change everything. And I started my first company when I was 28. And,

00;11;47;24 - 00;12;05;18
HR Huntsman
being a multimillionaire was no longer the goal. It was really. Well, I wanted to change the world, so I started my first company was a nonprofit humanitarian organization, and eventually grew it to be very large and got to travel the world and worked in Uganda, Kenya and India and all through Mexico.

00;12;05;18 - 00;12;25;09
HR Huntsman
We're here in the States doing all kinds of projects and building orphanages and drilling wells and vegetable gardens and food projects and medical staff. And we followed hurricanes and rebuilt homes and built counseling centers and all, all kinds of cool stuff that are pretty proud of,

00;12;25;12 - 00;12;30;19
Craig Andrews
That's amazing. Now, at some point and so you've had,

00;12;30;19 - 00;12;35;13
Craig Andrews
your leaders edge for 30 years, but in there you also became a,

00;12;35;13 - 00;12;36;22
Craig Andrews
vestige chair.

00;12;36;25 - 00;12;45;12
HR Huntsman
So I started Leaders Edge after I retired. So I retired from that company when I was 50, my first company. And,

00;12;45;12 - 00;12;55;12
HR Huntsman
that's when I decided to focus solely on leaders. And that's what I started. Leaders. And I've been doing I've been growing businesses for 30 years. But Leaders Edge is the second half of my professional career.

00;12;55;14 - 00;12;57;29
Craig Andrews
Okay now? And

00;12;57;29 - 00;13;02;07
Craig Andrews
am I right that you were at some point, where were you a vestige member or a vestige chair or a.

00;13;02;07 - 00;13;03;12
HR Huntsman
Chair for a short time?

00;13;03;17 - 00;13;10;21
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. So first off, for those that don't know, what is vestige, what's the vestige chair? Was all that mean.

00;13;10;23 - 00;13;42;22
HR Huntsman
Vestige is a worldwide organization that helps develop leaders. And these are usually business owners, small business owners or large C-suite executives that come together once a month. And in a mastermind kind of format, a peer to peer format where they challenge each other, hear stories, share ideas, frustrations about business. It's a place where they can talk about things they probably wouldn't talk about any place else and and help each other grow their companies and their leadership.

00;13;42;24 - 00;13;45;06
HR Huntsman
They're really good organization.

00;13;45;09 - 00;13;47;21
Craig Andrews
You know my nickname for Zoe or

00;13;47;21 - 00;13;54;01
Craig Andrews
nickname or the way I've described it to people is it's a board of directors that can't fire you.

00;13;54;04 - 00;14;00;28
HR Huntsman
Okay. Yeah. That's that's right. Yeah, yeah. It's a good place to to grow and be challenged and to be accountable to.

00;14;01;01 - 00;14;20;15
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, that's one of the challenges that I think, you know, I love the concept of having a board of directors. These are supposed to be advisors from a diverse background that help you run your C corporation. But I think what happens in reality is when you go into these board meetings, you realize, you know, as a CEO,

00;14;20;15 - 00;14;24;05
Craig Andrews
you're basically one board meeting away from being fired.

00;14;24;05 - 00;14;44;07
Craig Andrews
You say the wrong thing in front of the board, or he asks the wrong question and they lose confidence. And next thing you know, you're out of a job. And so what structurally should be a board of advisors is really missing. And that's one of the things I really like about vestige is the confidentiality that says the where you can ask these questions.

00;14;44;10 - 00;14;50;10
Craig Andrews
You have a diverse group of people that can share insight and give you ideas to work through problems. Yeah.

00;14;50;10 - 00;14;52;19
HR Huntsman
Agreed? Agreed. For sure.

00;14;52;22 - 00;14;55;10
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So,

00;14;55;10 - 00;14;59;15
Craig Andrews
so you did that in combination with Leaders edge?

00;14;59;18 - 00;15;30;03
HR Huntsman
Yeah. I was more passionate about like, I have my own peer to peer group as well, but I was more passionate about working with teams. Again. My background is developing teams and building leaders. So I really focus on business strategy and team development. Which is it really visages strong suit? That's not what their focus is. So I wanted to focus leaders in more on those areas of working with executive teams, going in and, developing, working on systems, developing accountability protocols, mission vision, value type stuff.

00;15;30;03 - 00;15;32;24
Craig Andrews
So a full.

00;15;32;27 - 00;15;41;03
HR Huntsman
Whole company or whole team, integration is what I'm really passionate about. What leaders and really doing well, wow.

00;15;41;06 - 00;15;57;03
Craig Andrews
And and that's really interesting. So I mean, obviously I know a number of people that they've joined the stage for, you know, for the various benefits. What is.

00;15;57;05 - 00;16;13;15
Craig Andrews
What would you say are the biggest things that they're missing? Obviously what you're saying from the team perspective, but what is it that so ignite your passion about addressing the whole team that's fails to be addressed in vestige? What does it mean to the business?

00;16;13;17 - 00;16;31;24
HR Huntsman
What it means to the business is greater by and greater collaboration, greater creative conflict. All the things that we believe are essential and necessary to grow healthy organizations, what we call destination workplaces. And so we are we absolutely are passionate.

00;16;31;24 - 00;17;00;02
HR Huntsman
Again, all through the first 25 years of my own company, developing those teams became my great love. So going red when ABC and invites us into to work with their team and help them develop systems and and build leadership infrastructure and work through accountability processes and and document of strategy, getting to do that with the top 12 or 15 people as opposed to just a single CEO.

00;17;00;04 - 00;17;05;00
HR Huntsman
It's just far, far more impactful to the organization.

00;17;05;02 - 00;17;18;28
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Why do you think that is? I mean, there's the obvious, but what's missing, you know, because conceivably you could advise a CEO. Sure.

00;17;18;28 - 00;17;25;28
Craig Andrews
hey, you need to go do these things, but I believe you when you say working with the entire team is more impactful, I believe that.

00;17;26;01 - 00;17;26;19
HR Huntsman
Sure.

00;17;26;21 - 00;17;30;11
Craig Andrews
Why is it more impactful?

00;17;30;13 - 00;17;35;07
HR Huntsman
Why is it more impactful working with the team? Or why doesn't the CEO just do it.

00;17;35;10 - 00;17;56;08
Craig Andrews
As opposed to why is it more impactful when you go in and work with the entire team, as opposed to working with the CEO and saying, okay, here's what you need to do, because conceivable, you know, you could kind of wind up the CEO and turn them loose to go do the same processes that you're doing. Sure. But you're getting bigger results when you work with the entire team as opposed to giving him direction.

00;17;56;12 - 00;18;22;21
HR Huntsman
Much bigger and for several different reasons. Number one is that's not what his training is. He's not trained to do those things. That's typically not a CEO's background. They're focused on the specific focus of that organization. They tend to be putting out fires every day, or they're holding meetings or doing reports. They're not trained in organizational psychology and organizational development, organizational strategy.

00;18;22;23 - 00;18;35;24
HR Huntsman
we are this surgical team that this is what we do every single day of our lives. So we're very, very good at it. So we get to come in like a surgery team and, and help quickly coalesce and,

00;18;35;24 - 00;18;44;20
HR Huntsman
and collaborate and have good, healthy conflict. Most CEOs, frankly, aren't very good at. And we get to teach the teams how to do this in a safe space.

00;18;44;20 - 00;19;09;22
HR Huntsman
And us being outsiders is actually a tremendous advantage because we bring, you know, tons of experience with us and working with dozens and dozens of companies. So, you know, that outsider perspective is actually an advantage to those that are in the weeds every single day. So it has a tremendous impact that it would take a CEO far, far longer to do on their own.

00;19;09;25 - 00;19;12;15
Craig Andrews
You know? And I see that in my own business,

00;19;12;15 - 00;19;31;23
Craig Andrews
and not only in my own business, but my own specialty. So I do marketing for other folks. Right. But I have tremendous blind spots when it comes to my own marketing. And so I actually reach out to other people. I've got two people speaking into my life right now who are looking at,

00;19;31;23 - 00;19;38;05
Craig Andrews
my company and making huge differences to my own marketing because of my own blind spots.

00;19;38;08 - 00;19;47;25
Craig Andrews
Sure. And so I would see the same thing from a leadership perspective. Even the most powerful and dynamic leader must have blind spots. Oh, of.

00;19;47;25 - 00;20;06;09
HR Huntsman
Course they do blind spots. And there's going to be a certain culture that's already developed that we get to as outsiders come in and interrogate it with fresh eyes. Not only does the CEO have blind spots, the entire executive team has blind spots, or the the leadership team has blind spots. And we get to come in, interrogate that.

00;20;06;09 - 00;20;06;26
HR Huntsman
And it's,

00;20;06;26 - 00;20;24;12
HR Huntsman
it offers him a fresh look at how they do business. I mean, I could take your say, for example. You're a marketing expert. Why don't you just teach the CMO of this huge corporation how to do marketing? Rather, would you rather you come it right? It's it's not that easily transferable because this is what you do.

00;20;24;12 - 00;20;31;08
HR Huntsman
Every single day of your life with multiple companies. So it's not as easily transferable as it hypothetically sounds like it could be.

00;20;31;10 - 00;20;57;16
Craig Andrews
Yeah. No. Absolutely, absolutely. Now, one of the things that you were talking about, you've said this a couple times as conflict and conflict is a really interesting thing. And if I think about scale on one side of the scale, we have Apple, you know, a place of extreme, at least previously we have extreme conflict. Okay. And on the other end of the scale, we have, my first company out of college, Ericsson.

00;20;57;16 - 00;21;02;04
Craig Andrews
It was a Swedish company that, you know, like the most passive aggressive culture on the face of the earth.

00;21;02;11 - 00;21;04;00
HR Huntsman
Okay. All right.

00;21;04;02 - 00;21;05;08
Craig Andrews
Where there was,

00;21;05;08 - 00;21;08;13
Craig Andrews
you know, there was never conflict. And,

00;21;08;13 - 00;21;19;15
Craig Andrews
you know, the. Yeah. And I, I've seen powerful arguments on both sides. What's the role of conflict in a company and how does it look?

00;21;19;18 - 00;21;43;19
HR Huntsman
So there's basically when you talk about organizational psychology or just psychology in general, there's basically two kinds of conflict. There's relationship conflict. Where do you and I disagree on politics or the fact that you stole my meatloaf out of the fridge last week, or you parked on my spot and I don't like you. So there's relationship conflict or personality conflict, and then there's conflict over ideas.

00;21;43;21 - 00;22;11;28
HR Huntsman
So it's a conflict over ideas that we try to bind everywhere we go. Personality conflict is almost always unhealthy, and it creates a terrible culture that is psychologically unsafe. Conflict over ideas is what we try to propagate and instigate and actually inflame. And most companies aren't good about this because they're afraid of the relationship kind of conflict. So they avoid idea conflict.

00;22;12;00 - 00;22;35;15
HR Huntsman
So we separate the two and we help them build a culture where we could have good, respectful disagreements over ideas that can move the company forward and move the ball down the field in a way that doesn't hurt our relationship at all. So companies that avoid all kinds of conflict are avoiding idea conflict or what we call creative conflict.

00;22;35;17 - 00;22;42;04
HR Huntsman
And they're leaving innovation, creativity and profits on the table by doing so well.

00;22;42;07 - 00;22;52;23
Craig Andrews
How do you structure that? How do you what's the structure for building a culture of encouraging idea conflict?

00;22;52;25 - 00;23;16;07
HR Huntsman
It's all about curiosity. They ask you really good questions. Craig. What what we've learned and what we teach everywhere we go is this idea of leadership by inquiry. And if you want really good creative conflicts is by asking questions, what could we do? Let's take marketing. What would a great marketing campaign look like? How would it look differently than what we're doing now?

00;23;16;07 - 00;23;42;26
HR Huntsman
Where are we not working? What kind of key metrics do we need to look at that we're not looking at now? Those kinds of questions, they stir debate rather than Craig, you're dropping the ball in marketing and you're not hitting your numbers. Those tend to bring up defensiveness, whereas inquiry and curiosity allows good, healthy debate. So what we teach us to fill the room with good open ended questions.

00;23;42;28 - 00;23;56;13
Craig Andrews
Yeah. You know, for me, I know I've struck gold when I hear a client say, that's not how that's done in our industry. Or,

00;23;56;13 - 00;24;09;09
Craig Andrews
that will never work, or just one of these broad blanket statements that tries to dismiss an idea. Sure. It's for me, it's like finding a rock, turning it over and finding gold hidden under that rock.

00;24;09;10 - 00;24;11;11
HR Huntsman
For sure. For sure.

00;24;11;14 - 00;24;17;13
Craig Andrews
So how does that look like for you when when you're going into organizations, what are the similar type statements that you hear?

00;24;17;15 - 00;24;18;03
HR Huntsman
Yeah.

00;24;18;05 - 00;24;19;08
Craig Andrews
What is the gold you find.

00;24;19;15 - 00;24;38;15
HR Huntsman
Yeah, we hear those same things. And again curiosity inquiry. They're part of the hallmark of the framework of how we approach everything we do. So I would just approach those. It sounds like there's some fear there or some scar tissue there. Tell me about that. And I'd have them tell me the story of how that how that works of the palace and what they tried.

00;24;38;15 - 00;25;01;06
HR Huntsman
And you know, what would be the shame or try that again, or what might look different if you were designed that differently, how would you design it? So I'm just peppered with all kinds of questions. I wouldn't react to the initial rock thrown in the into the window. I would just respond with all kinds of questions that would help them begin to see it from a different angle, rather than dismissing it outright.

00;25;01;08 - 00;25;06;09
Craig Andrews
Yeah, and that's good. That's I like that because,

00;25;06;09 - 00;25;09;06
Craig Andrews
when, you know, they sort of threw the rock through the window

00;25;09;06 - 00;25;20;22
Craig Andrews
when they said, that won't work or that's not how it's done. Yeah. And if you throw if you respond by throwing a rock through their window, that just that's going to escalate things in an unhealthy way.

00;25;20;24 - 00;25;27;08
HR Huntsman
Yeah. They'll just dig in their heels. That approach never works. You trying to convince someone upfront?

00;25;27;08 - 00;25;41;22
HR Huntsman
they're just going to dig in their heels and stick with their position, whatever it is. That's just that's just human nature. But inviting people to explore different ideas and helping them travel down little trails. Or let's look at this trailer. What does this little trail look like?

00;25;41;24 - 00;25;59;07
HR Huntsman
that kind of inquiry, aids the person to take down some of those defensive walls of ego and fear and allow them to take a little bit of a journey and say, well, I never saw it from that angle before. I think we can explore that. And those that when I, when I see those light bulbs go off, that's the real goal right there.

00;25;59;09 - 00;26;08;17
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. I bet, you know, on the subject of conflict, here's a real life example from Apple.

00;26;08;17 - 00;26;35;26
Craig Andrews
the original iPhone was not supposed to have a SIM card. And and that was an edict put out by Steve, Johnny IV and Steve Jobs. It's like, yep, no SIM card. And that came out. But something in Steve Jobs leadership, you know, one, you know, to rise up to the upper echelons of Apple that you had to be really, really good and you had to be able to present your point.

00;26;35;28 - 00;26;36;15
Craig Andrews
But,

00;26;36;15 - 00;26;36;29
Craig Andrews
they,

00;26;36;29 - 00;26;40;21
Craig Andrews
Tony Fidel, who was running the iPhone project,

00;26;40;21 - 00;27;00;02
Craig Andrews
tells a story of how he confronted Steve. And he he did it with data, and he basically showed all the networks in the world that required SIM cards. And he's like, Steve, we're going to take all of these off the table. If you get rid of the SIM card, will you one go and and he was able to change Steve Jobs mind.

00;27;00;08 - 00;27;13;15
Craig Andrews
Yeah. But that required creating that culture where he knew he could confront Steve Jobs and not get fired, which was kind of a precarious thing in that organization, for.

00;27;13;15 - 00;27;41;26
HR Huntsman
Sure, especially jobs. 1.0, imagine trying to still till Steve Jobs 1.0, that he's wrong about the SIM card and just butting heads with him just on the premise itself. You're going to lose, right? Yeah, you're going to lose that debate. And so when we go to these organizations, we find helping them look at innovation and creativity and conflict through the lens of creative conflict and idea conflict, we have tremendous results because of that approach.

00;27;41;28 - 00;27;49;06
Craig Andrews
Now, you just said something that flew over the head of many, I mean, and it makes complete sense to somebody who studies leadership every day.

00;27;49;13 - 00;27;50;24
HR Huntsman
Okay. What's that?

00;27;50;26 - 00;27;57;12
Craig Andrews
Steve 1.0. What? Steve 1.0 versus Steve 2.0. What's that mean and why does that matter?

00;27;57;14 - 00;28;23;09
HR Huntsman
So this is just from my knowledge of Steve, which is obviously remote. Just things I've read. I obviously I've never met him, but what I've read about 1.0 very dictatorial by way highway, very rigid, very tough on people. When he got fired from his own company, was a board. Let him go. There was a a reorganization. There were some vulnerabilities, a little bit of humility.

00;28;23;09 - 00;28;49;26
HR Huntsman
When he was hired back at, Steve 2.0, there was there was some softness that had come around with him. But by all accounts that I have read and Steve 2.0 was more open to debate and to dialog, a healthier conflict that wasn't nearly as dictatorial as 1.0 was. Is that your take as well? You may know as much or more about him than I do.

00;28;49;28 - 00;28;50;27
Craig Andrews
Yeah, I,

00;28;50;27 - 00;29;00;14
Craig Andrews
no, I think it's that that's my impression as well. There's still some unanswered questions in my mind about Steve Jobs. There's, there's a lot of,

00;29;00;14 - 00;29;09;28
Craig Andrews
lack of resolution. I, you know, I don't I don't view him as a great humanitarian, but a genius marketer who had,

00;29;09;28 - 00;29;13;22
Craig Andrews
had many flaws, of course. And I think that's.

00;29;13;28 - 00;29;25;14
Craig Andrews
And the reason I'm bringing that up is for any leader that's listening. Of course, you have flaws. We all do. And if Steve Jobs can go from one point,

00;29;25;14 - 00;29;36;29
Craig Andrews
the guy who gets fired from his own company to the guy who built one of the most profitable companies and one of the most valuable companies on earth. Yes, we can all do this.

00;29;36;29 - 00;29;40;07
HR Huntsman
That's right. I agree with that.

00;29;40;10 - 00;29;45;14
Craig Andrews
And it's. And I think kind of,

00;29;45;14 - 00;29;58;21
Craig Andrews
you know, as we kind of win things up here as we as we bring it back, it does come back to this concept of, of conflict that you talked about. You know, I've,

00;29;58;21 - 00;30;00;17
Craig Andrews
you know, I've got,

00;30;00;17 - 00;30;03;19
Craig Andrews
somebody it works for me who,

00;30;03;19 - 00;30;07;26
Craig Andrews
was reviewing some things I put together, and I sent her version one.

00;30;07;26 - 00;30;32;27
Craig Andrews
She says, I can't figure this out. This doesn't make sense. So I go back and I work on version two. I can't figure this out. Don't make sense. Version three I can't figure this out. Don't make sense. And, so thank I mean, this is somebody that whose paycheck I sign. I'm so thankful that she has the boldness to tell me that she's seeing something that I'm missing.

00;30;32;29 - 00;30;36;03
HR Huntsman
That's good. That's good leadership on your part.

00;30;36;05 - 00;30;51;15
Craig Andrews
And and I think that's, you know, something Steve Jobs eventually came around to saying is we hire smart people not to make decisions for them. We want them to help us make better decisions right.

00;30;51;18 - 00;31;09;19
HR Huntsman
So we I mean, I work with CEOs, the high performing entrepreneurs, every day of my life. And I could tell you, Craig, that the the ones are the greatest joy to work with are the ones who see the greatest change, are the ones that are still humble enough to say, I don't know everything. There's they're willing to learn.

00;31;09;22 - 00;31;14;18
HR Huntsman
They're lifelong learners. They're they're vulnerable enough to say, can you help me? They're humble

00;31;14;18 - 00;31;32;00
HR Huntsman
enough to say, I don't know that. And these are extremely successful women and men, and they have the humility to to be a lifelong learner in their 40s and 50s and 60s. They're not only a joy to work with, but then they exponentially bless the people that follow them.

00;31;32;03 - 00;31;35;14
HR Huntsman
And I love working with leaders that are still learners.

00;31;35;16 - 00;31;51;28
Craig Andrews
Well, well, I know we could go another hour. This is just so fascinating. But I mean, if I think about, you know, the, you know, kind of the biggest takeaways here, one is just building that,

00;31;51;28 - 00;31;56;24
Craig Andrews
that culture of conflict, of healthy conflict and making sure the conflicts about the right things.

00;31;56;26 - 00;31;57;29
HR Huntsman
That's right.

00;31;58;01 - 00;32;05;05
Craig Andrews
And going back to those lessons you had early on, you know, in the Air Force is,

00;32;05;05 - 00;32;07;11
Craig Andrews
everybody has value. Yeah.

00;32;07;11 - 00;32;11;25
Craig Andrews
be generous and be grateful. Right.

00;32;11;25 - 00;32;18;23
Craig Andrews
for people that want to learn more about this and when, be their own version of their their Steve Jobs 2.0.

00;32;18;23 - 00;32;21;00
Craig Andrews
how do they reach you?

00;32;21;02 - 00;32;37;01
HR Huntsman
Just email me H.R. At your Leaders edge.com. I'd love to have a chat with you as a leader. I just want to champion your leaders. I believe that leaders change the world just like John Simmons did with me. You never know whose life you're going to impact, who could impact the world. So reach out to me. Let's have a chat.

00;32;37;01 - 00;32;41;03
HR Huntsman
You can always go to our website, your leaders x.com as well.

00;32;41;06 - 00;32;45;14
Craig Andrews
Well that's great. H.R., this has been a delight. Thanks for coming on, leaders and Legacies.

00;32;45;16 - 00;32;59;10
HR Huntsman
Thank you Craig, I really enjoyed it. I appreciate the time.

00;32;59;10 - 00;33;26;06
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Alize for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this

00;33;26;06 - 00;33;28;01
Craig Andrews
episode on social media.

00;33;28;03 - 00;33;51;13
Craig Andrews
Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or posted on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest, tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.

00;33;51;15 - 00;33;59;20
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe your thumbs up! Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.

00;33;59;20 - 00;36;01;27
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Alize for me.com. or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.