Joe Travaglione, founder of Future State Cyber, shares unconventional leadership insights inspired by his upbringing around Italian immigrants and his surprising connections to the Mob. Travaglione discusses how the Mob's structured approach to leadership and development has shaped his management style. From self-managing teams to providing clarity in goals, Joe emphasizes the importance of development and feedback in creating high-functioning businesses. He draws parallels between Mob operations and modern business practices, noting that both rely on clear goals, accountability, and the ability to let go of underperformers. Joe also highlights the importance of mental toughness and continuous improvement, referencing the 75 Hard Challenge as a model for staying disciplined in leadership.

Want to learn more about Joe Travaglione's work? Check out his website at https://www.futurestatecyber.com.

Connect with Joe on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/joetravaglione/.

Key Points and Timestamps:

• 00:02 - 00:03:13: Joe's Italian heritage and his surprising connections to the mob.
• 00:05 - 00:06:00: The mob’s business structure and leadership approach.
• 00:09 - 00:10:30: Self-managing teams and the parallels between mob leadership and modern business.
• 00:17 - 00:19:00: The importance of clarity and one-on-one development in leadership.
• 00:25 - 00:27:00: Why feedback and performance management are crucial for team success.
• 00:27 - 00:28:00: Joe’s advice on building leadership and development processes.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:30:16
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment of my career.

00:00:30:18 - 00:00:51:07
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on the show.

00:00:51:07 - 00:01:02:04
Craig Andrews
Today I will welcome Joe Travaglione . And yes, that's hard to say. And it's very Italian and maybe mobster ish. Will, we're actually going cover that,

00:01:02:04 - 00:01:06:22
Craig Andrews
in today's episode. But Joe is the founder of Future State Cyber.

00:01:06:22 - 00:01:13:17
Craig Andrews
He's he works with managed service providers, which are outsourced IT companies. And,

00:01:13:17 - 00:01:15:11
Craig Andrews
he has some amazing lessons.

00:01:15:11 - 00:01:17:18
Craig Andrews
You know, Joe and I have talked,

00:01:17:18 - 00:01:39:02
Craig Andrews
multiple times. And the hardest thing in every conversation is when to end it, because it's so enriching. I enjoy the conversations so much, and Joe has some amazing insights for business, whether you have an MSP or whether you have another MSP. And he actually credits some of those insights to,

00:01:39:02 - 00:01:42:11
Craig Andrews
brushes with the mob.

00:01:42:13 - 00:01:44:11
Craig Andrews
And so, Joe,

00:01:44:11 - 00:01:46:21
Craig Andrews
welcome to Leaders and Legacies.

00:01:46:23 - 00:01:50:10
Joe Travaglione
Thank you, Craig, so much for having me. I appreciate all the time. And

00:01:50:10 - 00:01:53:20
Joe Travaglione
first time we're going to record one of these conversations we have.

00:01:53:22 - 00:01:58:11
Craig Andrews
Oh, I love them. I absolutely love them. All right. So how do you say your last name again?

00:01:58:11 - 00:01:59:19
Joe Travaglione
It's Travaglione.

00:01:59:19 - 00:02:12:04
Joe Travaglione
But I always say it when I'm talking and introducing most people. I just say, Joe Travlione to give my American spin because it's always been tortured in the classrooms or wherever I go. So it's traffic learning.

00:02:12:06 - 00:02:14:07
Craig Andrews
And are you Sicilian?

00:02:14:09 - 00:02:21:00
Joe Travaglione
I'm both omnipotent and Sicilian, so, yes, I have both. In May.

00:02:21:02 - 00:02:22:01
Craig Andrews
Well, cool.

00:02:22:01 - 00:02:29:12
Craig Andrews
So. Yeah. And you were telling me the question everybody's asking and it's kind baked into the intro, you know, what are your connections with the mob?

00:02:29:13 - 00:02:52:10
Joe Travaglione
So as I grow up, as as I live now in the Baltimore area, I always get questions with my last name, and they're like, hey, do you know any mobsters? Or what about The Sopranos? Do you know anything about The Sopranos? And I always have a funny story that goes with it. And in ninth grade, I bring this kid home and I bring him home and introduce him to my mom, and I'm like, hey, mom, let me introduce you to my buddy.

00:02:52:10 - 00:02:58:03
Joe Travaglione
His name's Sam to Calva Vacanti. So we're hanging out. We're doing everything. My mom takes him home.

00:02:58:03 - 00:03:06:15
Joe Travaglione
On the drive home, she goes, hey, do you know that kid is. I'm like, yeah, it's Sam de Cavalcanti. She goes, oh, it's Sam the Plumber. I'm like,

00:03:06:15 - 00:03:13:11
Joe Travaglione
his family owns a plumbing business. My mom's like, no, his grandfather's the head of the new Jersey mob.

00:03:13:13 - 00:03:33:18
Joe Travaglione
It's the DeKalb County family. So as funny as it is growing up and learning my best friend's family was the mob and owned multiple businesses growing up. And I learned a lot of funny lessons growing up and living with these Italian immigrants that I grew up with in new Jersey.

00:03:33:20 - 00:03:38:01
Craig Andrews
So what's what's one what's one lesson that just stands out?

00:03:38:03 - 00:04:09:04
Joe Travaglione
Oh, man, the lessons I do. I mean, as crazy as it is, I didn't realize that the mob was running business the whole time. As we were talking earlier and thinking about three things. It's like the mob runs numbers, which is now legalized gambling. The mob runs taxing or giving out loans, which now we call credit cards. So it kind of is funny to me to see all these businesses that they ran that were allowed legitimate, are now run by the government or other programs, and they are legitimate.

00:04:09:07 - 00:04:12:11
Joe Travaglione
So as funny as it is, I take a lot of that hard work. And,

00:04:12:11 - 00:04:19:11
Joe Travaglione
and immigrant lifestyle and like really apply it to what I do in business. And it's helped make me successful today.

00:04:19:13 - 00:04:22:13
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And, you know, I've heard,

00:04:22:13 - 00:04:38:03
Craig Andrews
Michael Frank's who a capo in the Colombo family, and he talks about that and he's, he's walked away from that lifestyle. He's very clear, you know, have if you're a gangster, don't care what kind of gangster you are. There's one two outcomes. You're either going to die or you're going to jail.

00:04:38:05 - 00:04:41:04
Craig Andrews
So he's he's not condoning it, but he. Yeah. He said,

00:04:41:04 - 00:04:46:04
Craig Andrews
you know, on the gambling, he said they should let the mob run the gambling.

00:04:46:04 - 00:04:50:13
Craig Andrews
It will be more efficient, more profitable, with higher customer satisfaction.

00:04:50:15 - 00:04:51:04
Joe Travaglione
And then agree.

00:04:51:04 - 00:05:09:02
Craig Andrews
More will help us unpack that, because I think there's a part where people struggle with that, because they just have baked in in their head that the the mob is bad. And yeah, they for good reasons. But what is it that they do differently than the government that makes Michael Francis say that?

00:05:09:04 - 00:05:17:08
Joe Travaglione
It's funny as crazy as you think about it. It's like they have good leadership and some management and development. They tend, if you think about it,

00:05:17:08 - 00:05:34:17
Joe Travaglione
of some way of teaching their members, they have a structure, you know, they have some sort of development path. I hate to say it, but they are literally employing business and developmental skills to their to their mafia or their members of their ranks.

00:05:34:22 - 00:05:51:04
Joe Travaglione
And there is some sort of structure and process and procedure that they follow that works, you know, and it might be a little shady or not on the best way, but those same business principles obviously work illegally and legally, too.

00:05:51:05 - 00:05:56:08
Craig Andrews
Yeah, they're their performance improvement program has a little bit of different spin to it.

00:05:56:10 - 00:06:00:10
Joe Travaglione
Yes, a lot to be desired. There.

00:06:00:12 - 00:06:18:19
Craig Andrews
But you know, I've, I've, I've heard Michael Franks say that as well as matter of fact, he's put out a management book about how to run your business like a mobster. And again, he's not condoning the lifestyle. He's walked away from it. But what you said, hey, there's some things I learned in the mob. They're just good leadership principles.

00:06:19:00 - 00:06:33:03
Joe Travaglione
Yeah, there's they're got so many leadership principles. And like, you know, at the end of the day, I think it's really one on one development. Regardless, the mob is the one that they're meeting with their people. They're telling them what they can do good. They're telling them what they're doing bad.

00:06:33:03 - 00:06:37:04
Joe Travaglione
When they tell them what they're doing bad, the consequences are much more severe.

00:06:37:10 - 00:06:55:13
Joe Travaglione
But I think they're giving them feedback in a constant way. And what I see, as stupid as it is in the IT industry a lot of times is when these leaders, they're entrepreneurs, they ended up being like a technician, right? And they started to own their business and said, hey, I want to do more than be a technician.

00:06:55:13 - 00:07:14:04
Joe Travaglione
I want to run a business. But the one thing they're missing is that leadership and development and the mob did that. They took you from the stoop down to like a capo to the next level and the next level up, and we need to do that in business, too. We need to take down leadership and development skills and take it to our teams and build self-managing teams.

00:07:14:04 - 00:07:33:05
Joe Travaglione
And as crazy as it is, that's why the Mafia was a little bit successful too, is they have a lot of people that were able to self-manage themselves. Right. So how do we help business owners do the same thing? And that's what I'm trying to help every day, is give them that structure and some processes to help them do the same things.

00:07:33:07 - 00:07:36:05
Craig Andrews
So are you the consigliere?

00:07:36:06 - 00:07:45:07
Joe Travaglione
Yes, I try to be. You're right. I try to be the whisperer. I try to not be the top guy, but more giving the whispering in the air. So that is a wonderful,

00:07:45:07 - 00:07:48:22
Joe Travaglione
metaphor for a assimilate. Actually, that is different now.

00:07:49:04 - 00:07:55:18
Craig Andrews
There are probably a couple people that don't know what areas, but I think it really makes sense. What is it? What would you call a consigliere?

00:07:55:21 - 00:08:09:18
Joe Travaglione
Yeah, he's the right hand man to the don, right? He really is just giving him advice, not really telling him the right or wrong, but giving a lot of advice, giving a lot of ideas and then providing structure and,

00:08:09:18 - 00:08:11:21
Joe Travaglione
processes to the people underneath.

00:08:11:21 - 00:08:17:10
Joe Travaglione
He's the right hand man. He is the maybe the CEO of the company.

00:08:17:10 - 00:08:19:13
Joe Travaglione
Right, for lack of better terms.

00:08:19:15 - 00:08:39:12
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, and, you know, I see some people get resistant to having a coach or having, you know, some type of counselor. And that's what consigliere means as counselor, having that in their business. So I always go back to Michael Jordan. I don't know the exact count, but I would love to know how many coaches Michael Jordan had.

00:08:39:12 - 00:08:40:17
Craig Andrews
I know it was more than one.

00:08:40:19 - 00:08:45:13
Joe Travaglione
Yes, yes. I don't know the exact count either, but I know Tim Grover was his,

00:08:45:13 - 00:08:52:14
Joe Travaglione
personal coach. And then you're right. Yeah. At least had 5 to 6. The three on the Bulls, I would think. And then a couple on the Wizards.

00:08:52:16 - 00:09:20:03
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So one of the what, one of the best athletes of our lifetime saw the benefit of having a counselor in his life is can Larry multiple can salaries to help make him better. And it and I think I think you know business owners who resist that I would imagine there's a little bit of pride in that where they're like, well, hey, if I was really good, I wouldn't need this advice.

00:09:20:05 - 00:09:21:23
Craig Andrews
But I think that's wrong. Thinking.

00:09:22:01 - 00:09:52:21
Joe Travaglione
I agree with you 100%. I think it's the opposite. Right? And I always say like, why is Michael Jordan good? Was he always had masterminds? Right. And I always loved the term of masterminds because I want somebody or five people smarter than me and whatever area I'm trying to learn. So if we're using the Michael Jordan reference, at some point when he was getting into business and learning how to make Air Jordans one of the most successful shoes out there, he was probably leaning on five different masterminds than he did when he learned how to be the best basketball player that he has right now.

00:09:52:21 - 00:10:14:23
Joe Travaglione
Right? And I always think with the people with that infinite mindset of like, I'm constantly trying to grow, I'm constantly trying to develop. You always need somebody to coach you. That's giving you some advice on how to get better. So unless you're, I say climbing or camping, right? Unless you're a camper and you're ready to stay where you are, which I'm not, I'm a climber.

00:10:15:05 - 00:10:33:08
Joe Travaglione
I'd always look for a coach. I'm always looking for somebody to give me new advice and insight to make me better. And the other thing I realized was I always thought like I wanted the celebration, but I think more of the journey, the paint, the pain of the journey is really what makes the success at the end so worthwhile.

00:10:33:12 - 00:10:42:13
Joe Travaglione
So like having a coach that's there to help you along the way sometimes points out the joy that you don't realize your experience. And while you're growing the whole time.

00:10:42:15 - 00:10:52:14
Craig Andrews
Oh my goodness, let's slow down. Let's visit there again, because that is so powerful. I mean, it's.

00:10:52:16 - 00:11:00:13
Craig Andrews
I catch myself doing that every now and then is something big will happen. And I'm just so focused on the next milestone

00:11:00:13 - 00:11:04:15
Craig Andrews
that I missed something significant that just happened.

00:11:04:17 - 00:11:06:07
Joe Travaglione
And,

00:11:06:07 - 00:11:26:22
Joe Travaglione
we miss it so many times. It's one of those things I like, try to write down to people sometimes when you're doing a priority, as crazy as that or it it's weird because we do project management a lot and you'll see these Kanban boards and what they ultimately have is like projects we're working on. And then as crazy in the IT world, you have interruptions and it's the same things as a leader.

00:11:26:22 - 00:11:46:07
Joe Travaglione
I just don't think they can look at it and like a project management board, the similar way I conceptualize it, because it's like, hey, I'm working on this initiative, right? And it might be let's fix like a after hours call thing. Well, at the end of the day, you might have to fix 4 or 5 more procedures along the way to just get that completed.

00:11:46:13 - 00:12:08:21
Joe Travaglione
And sometimes we don't celebrate all those little things you do. Just like I didn't complete the one initiative I started, but you actually completed seven different other processes along the way, and we don't celebrate that. So we do need to take more time and realize, hey, I've done 20 things even though I didn't get the other thing done, but I might have done 20 things along the way.

00:12:08:21 - 00:12:20:08
Joe Travaglione
Those are stepping me up that ladder to get fulfilled and get all the way accomplished to that initiative so you don't spend enough time, like looking back and reflect that, especially like high achievers. They're constantly going.

00:12:20:10 - 00:12:43:07
Craig Andrews
Yeah, you know, I know King last night I was having this conversation about my physical health and yeah, you know, that thing. Yeah I had pre major setback. I legit should be dead and I keep I'm frustrated because I can't run a mile and I'm ashamed to say it I can't run them. I can run a half mile.

00:12:43:09 - 00:13:00:07
Craig Andrews
I can't run a mile. And I was at a neighborhood party last night where there was a physical therapist, and I was telling him this, and he was doing for me what you're talking about. He's like, Craig, look at you. You're fit, you're upright, you are exceeding,

00:13:00:07 - 00:13:03:22
Craig Andrews
one. There's very few people like me that went on the ventilator and lived.

00:13:03:22 - 00:13:10:10
Craig Andrews
Most died. Yeah. And those that didn't die, I'm learning bit by bit, are in much worse,

00:13:10:10 - 00:13:25:07
Craig Andrews
health than me. And he said, Craig, you need to celebrate where you are. You've done a lot. It's easy to forget that. So how do we bake that in? How do you recommend that businesses make that a process to celebrate those things?

00:13:25:10 - 00:13:40:13
Joe Travaglione
You really have to like at some point, I don't know, I like to do some priority list or some items out there, like just to give myself an idea, but it really comes back. I tie it back to when I did the 75 hard and what I say, and I kind of always harp this on the businesses too.

00:13:40:13 - 00:13:56:19
Joe Travaglione
It's like 75 heart is 75 days of a mental toughness challenge where you have to do like seven items, right? And it's two exercises a day and they have to be broken up. One has to be outside. You have to drink 128oz of water, a gallon of water a day.

00:13:56:19 - 00:13:59:09
Joe Travaglione
You have to read ten pages of a book.

00:13:59:11 - 00:14:14:07
Joe Travaglione
And there's a couple other items that go with it. But at the end of the day, what it taught me was like, mental toughness. And you can do anything you put your mind to. Right. But the also, the thing is, only one other thing is you have to take a picture every day. And I hate taking a picture every day.

00:14:14:07 - 00:14:34:15
Joe Travaglione
Well, because everybody thinks it's like a health thing. But at the end when you take the picture on day one and then you look at day 75, I do understand, like the reason the took the pictures and it's kind of a similar how do we do this in business? Because every day I can look back on the picture and see the 1% change every day, right.

00:14:34:16 - 00:14:57:18
Joe Travaglione
So how do we integrate into our businesses that celebration of that 1% change every day to realize you spent 75 days or like, if we do a year, you made a 37% change, right? And everybody wants to see the 100% change, right? Craig. So for me, I put a lot of little like goal list and I do them quarterly and I try to do like five personal goals or business goals.

00:14:57:23 - 00:15:02:23
Joe Travaglione
And I write them down. And then I try to measure them. And what I try to do is I try to do a measure,

00:15:02:23 - 00:15:18:18
Joe Travaglione
on a quarterly basis. If I'm doing it, I'm doing it like one at the end of the month and of 60 days and a 90 days. Right. And you're right. I learn more to reflect on that, because a lot of the day and, you know, the days I usually look at it the most, the days when I'm the saddest or the most

00:15:18:18 - 00:15:22:23
Joe Travaglione
anxious because then I want to go look back and I'm like, okay, well, look at what I said.

00:15:22:23 - 00:15:40:11
Joe Travaglione
I was going to start today and then, okay, well, this much further and maybe that brings me some joy or brings me some rejuvenation to go down and tackle it, because as a business owner, we're in the infinite game. Unless you're selling your business and getting out of it right now, right? You're going to be here for a long time.

00:15:40:11 - 00:15:58:08
Joe Travaglione
So I'm ready to take the marathon on. And like, how do I celebrate it? Because we once we complete the marathon, it's almost like the Ironman. Then are you getting on the bike and doing the bike portion? Like what? Like you got to celebrate something along the way. So I try to bake in these little challenges to help me celebrate.

00:15:58:13 - 00:16:13:11
Joe Travaglione
And then a lot of times it's those masterminds, you know, because you have to talk to your friends and then they smack you around a little bit to to say, hey, you know, you actually done all this stuff. So it's a combination of writing it down and then really leaning on your mastermind group. So help you got there.

00:16:13:13 - 00:16:22:18
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, I love what you said about the 75 hard. There's and there's a couple things in there that I think are really powerful. The taking a picture.

00:16:22:18 - 00:16:40:13
Craig Andrews
So when you said that I had never heard that concept before, but immediately registered because I shot a video of I've been shooting a few videos lately for work and I was looking for one that accidentally pulled up a video from two years ago, one year out of the hospital.

00:16:40:15 - 00:16:47:01
Craig Andrews
And I'm looking at my face. My face is like all fat and what have you, and I'm. And I was like, Holy cow.

00:16:47:01 - 00:16:50:00
Craig Andrews
I thought I was skinnier then than I am now.

00:16:50:00 - 00:16:58:04
Craig Andrews
You know, and it's but it's looking in that picture, I'm realizing, oh my goodness, I've made so much progress in two years.

00:16:58:04 - 00:17:03:12
Craig Andrews
I'm probably a couple pounds heavier than was in that picture, but it's muscle.

00:17:03:12 - 00:17:36:21
Craig Andrews
It's not fat. Yeah. And so the concept of taking a picture of your business, taking snapshots of your business so you can reflect back at where you were and, and the progress you've made. I think that is so incredibly powerful. The other thing you said about 75 hard was about mental toughness, about doing hard things. And there's something I've learned recently,

00:17:36:21 - 00:17:37:23
Craig Andrews
there's a part of the brain,

00:17:37:23 - 00:17:38:14
Craig Andrews
bear with me.

00:17:38:14 - 00:17:48:01
Craig Andrews
I'll throw out some jargon. It's it's called the anterior cingulate cortex. Okay. And it's a part of the brain that controls,

00:17:48:01 - 00:17:50:16
Craig Andrews
emotions. Impulse control.

00:17:50:16 - 00:18:03:19
Craig Andrews
Reward delivery. Yeah. It's a part of the brain that grows, but the only way it grows is if you do things that make you uncomfortable. You know? Okay. And that's what you're talking about.

00:18:03:22 - 00:18:32:23
Joe Travaglione
100%. And that the other reason I do uncomfortable things that I have, like the life longevity things now, and I really think, like, we stop doing hard things, like it stops our cognitive function. So I've been trying to really push and like, and I've been on my parents about stuff like that as they're getting older and we always talk about and I'm like, I just feel like, I don't know, I want to continue to work as I get older, maybe not all the time and enjoying more life experiences, but I constantly want to be on this journey of like, how do I make it better?

00:18:32:23 - 00:18:48:06
Joe Travaglione
And I, as stupid as that is, I've been reading a lot of these books and a lot of them on your future self, and it's like, how do you get there? And it's like you got to celebrate it up front. But like, as stupid as it is, I didn't realize the whole time. Like, I really do like the struggle.

00:18:48:12 - 00:19:11:14
Joe Travaglione
I didn't realize it. That's probably why I don't celebrate the victory at the end, to be honest, as much because like, I really do like the suck, even though I'm saying I don't, you know what I mean? And I'm broke. I'm looking back, so I'm trying to figure out how to navigate both. But you're right. I think, like in that journey of self-discovery and struggle is like where you find yourself and it really is rewarding.

00:19:11:16 - 00:19:31:12
Craig Andrews
Well, and let's try this back to the to the mom example. You said that the mom has a structure that produces predictable results. Yeah. And the and one of the things is if you quit producing, it's not like you can keep producing at the same level and make it in that world. You need to produce at that level and then continually increase.

00:19:31:12 - 00:19:36:00
Craig Andrews
Because if you don't, there's a feedback mechanism that doesn't work out in your favor.

00:19:36:05 - 00:19:38:20
Joe Travaglione
Yes, yes. And that's probably why,

00:19:38:20 - 00:19:39:10
Joe Travaglione
they had a,

00:19:39:10 - 00:19:44:04
Joe Travaglione
interesting retirement plan there for the monsters. Right. Just stop producing,

00:19:44:04 - 00:19:46:19
Joe Travaglione
your retirement plan changed very quickly.

00:19:46:21 - 00:19:49:04
Craig Andrews
It was. And the retirement plan was fully funded?

00:19:49:04 - 00:19:51:22
Joe Travaglione
Yes. Solely funded. That's right.

00:19:51:22 - 00:20:10:03
Joe Travaglione
They took care of your family with a little bit. That's about it. That's right. You weren't there. But everything else was good. Yeah, but yeah, it was very interesting. Like I said, as the tired back and forth looking through that stuff is like, it really did build me right. The immigrant mindset and all those things.

00:20:10:03 - 00:20:34:00
Joe Travaglione
I didn't realize what it was building me for and the comradery and stuff. And the other thing I didn't realize that I do have a lot of respect back for of my heritage, of the Italian heritage is like like building a team and being like, really respectful and having each other's back. I never realized how much that like really relates in the workplace, you know, of like always having your coworkers back and then doing what's good for them.

00:20:34:04 - 00:20:42:19
Joe Travaglione
So really, it really helped prepare me for where I am today. And I didn't realize that looking back, well.

00:20:42:21 - 00:20:48:18
Craig Andrews
Okay, I think there's something to explore there. So the mob has a code.

00:20:48:18 - 00:20:55:10
Craig Andrews
You mess with another guy's wife and you're dead. That you know. So there are lines that you cross in the

00:20:55:10 - 00:21:11:21
Craig Andrews
mob, you get retired quick, laugh. I don't see that in businesses. I see some just absolutely horrible, backstabbing, cutthroat madness in business that's allowed and sometimes rewarded.

00:21:11:23 - 00:21:21:02
Joe Travaglione
Or the other thing. Right? If you don't perform, we keep you longer toe in the mob. You're done at the end. At some point, like you don't perform, you're gone.

00:21:21:02 - 00:21:27:02
Joe Travaglione
In businesses, we carry people a lot longer than we have to to as well. Right? We don't realize,

00:21:27:02 - 00:21:30:00
Joe Travaglione
we string along bad producers.

00:21:30:01 - 00:21:33:22
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Why do we do that?

00:21:34:00 - 00:21:36:18
Joe Travaglione
A lot of times I feel like it's managerial fear.

00:21:36:18 - 00:21:52:16
Joe Travaglione
Manager a lack of managerial courage. And the other thing I think happens is a lot is like process. And I hate to come back to process. I would say people process technology, but at the end of the day, it's like, were you a good manager and lead them to do everything you had to do?

00:21:52:18 - 00:22:11:13
Joe Travaglione
And I always go back and talk to the guys as I'm coaching these leaders now and they do really good one on one develop and then they've changed. I always start with like, did you fail? And if they think they fail and they go into like a 90 day, how do I recommit myself to my employee to prove if they're the right employee that's going to make it in the organization, right.

00:22:11:15 - 00:22:26:12
Joe Travaglione
And then if you do all those things and you try to develop them to get them where it is, then they know that they're not the right fit, right person for the right job, and they're gone or they leave anyway because they see it too. Right? So like it becomes,

00:22:26:12 - 00:22:33:22
Joe Travaglione
a mutual feedback and mutual commitment where they know that they're not right for the job or they actually see the writing on the wall and they leave anyway.

00:22:33:22 - 00:22:48:12
Joe Travaglione
So I feel like if you do have the right process and a really good development structure, like you can do that better, and a lot of times when leaders don't have that good management process, they're afraid to do it because they don't know if the person's right or wrong.

00:22:48:14 - 00:22:57:15
Craig Andrews
You know? Well, and as you were talking about that, I kept thinking about some I had to cut loose,

00:22:57:15 - 00:22:59:22
Craig Andrews
about 25 years ago.

00:22:59:22 - 00:23:10:20
Craig Andrews
I did it wrong. I did it wrong in so many ways. You know, it will touch on a number of the things that you're saying. So first thing is when. So I'm sitting there cutting them loose.

00:23:10:20 - 00:23:26:23
Craig Andrews
I have somebody from H.R. With me. And in the process of firing him, he, like, escapes and runs to my boss. He was like. He was just completely shocked. And so he, you know, we wrap things up, I'm out of the building and what have you. And,

00:23:26:23 - 00:23:32:10
Craig Andrews
and the guy from HR said, Craig, that seemed to be a surprise to him that he was being fired.

00:23:32:12 - 00:23:47:11
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So that was you were talking earlier about the constant feedback having that. I thought, you know, because I'm a little bit more intuitive. I just assume everybody sees what I see. And I was shocked that he was shocked.

00:23:47:13 - 00:23:49:09
Joe Travaglione
But yeah.

00:23:49:09 - 00:23:50:04
Craig Andrews
That's I wasn't.

00:23:50:04 - 00:23:50:15
Joe Travaglione
One

00:23:50:15 - 00:23:55:12
Joe Travaglione
they assuming that they know or like we always think they actually know what we're thinking.

00:23:55:12 - 00:23:57:21
Joe Travaglione
We mess on that a lot.

00:23:57:23 - 00:24:03:13
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And, and so one of the most valuable pieces of feedback I got in the moment was when this,

00:24:03:13 - 00:24:26:09
Craig Andrews
guy named Doug Bonner, it was just a great coach to the managers at that company. He said, Craig, your job is to make sure they're not surprised when this happens. And so that's one piece. The other thing is, when I'm fired him, his coworkers start coming up and thanking me and said, that told me, I let this go on too long.

00:24:26:14 - 00:24:42:01
Joe Travaglione
Yeah, yeah. The culture. You're the team. Well thank you. I'm always. You think it's going to. That's the other thing we think it's going to hurt production. And then when you're like you do it, you actually get thanked by the team and the production goes up with one less person. Right. Wow. How'd that work?

00:24:42:03 - 00:25:03:01
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I, I, I mean, I when you were talking about just running your business, you know, lessons from the mob, I mean, I, I was familiar with Michael Frank's book, but the more you talk about it, I mean, it just really, really resonates.

00:25:03:01 - 00:25:21:21
Craig Andrews
So if you were to, you know, as we wrap up, if you were to just kind of throw out three things that people should do based on when you're working with companies, the top three things that you see people are missing for somebody listening, what are the next three things they should focus on in their business?

00:25:21:23 - 00:25:34:22
Joe Travaglione
I really think it comes down to like the development. I think development is one of the biggest things and having clarity to goals for everybody on your team. So if you can build a self-managing team that has clarity to the goals,

00:25:34:22 - 00:25:46:06
Joe Travaglione
what's going on right. So let's have clear goals, one that everybody understands. And a lot of times it's like if they're not producing, did you explain those goals correctly?

00:25:46:07 - 00:26:06:21
Joe Travaglione
So it's like a lot on your. Right. So is the desired outcome so clear that they understand it. So it's always like it's usually my fault. It's like I didn't clearly articulate what we're trying to do or is what you said a minute ago, I thought I told them what it was or I thought they knew what it was because it's so obvious in my mind.

00:26:06:21 - 00:26:07:12
Craig Andrews
What it is.

00:26:07:18 - 00:26:19:18
Joe Travaglione
That I didn't even tell them what it was. So I'd say a lot is like, let's have clarity to the desired outcome of whatever strategic initiative it is, right? And if we don't, let's keep focusing on to make sure we have the team there. And the.

00:26:19:18 - 00:26:20:22
Craig Andrews
Other thing that's like one on one.

00:26:20:22 - 00:26:39:05
Joe Travaglione
Development. The second thing would be like, how do we have a process on one on one development? So that way the team understands what we're doing. And then the last thing I always say in the management of IT companies is a lack of like a management language, right? And there's so many management tools and language of like what's your meeting structure?

00:26:39:05 - 00:26:57:10
Joe Travaglione
Right. If you have multiple departments, is the meaning structure the same every time we do it? So like there's a million management tools. Hence why there's great to have coaches and masterminds to help you. But the third thing is what is your management language and just being on it? Is it the iOS language? Is it the Rockefeller habits?

00:26:57:13 - 00:27:07:12
Joe Travaglione
I don't care, but let's just have a language that everybody knows when we walk in. Here's how we do it in the company. And those are probably the three biggest things that impact companies I work with.

00:27:07:14 - 00:27:13:09
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well that's that's great. And so again, you work primarily with MSPs. Yes.

00:27:13:09 - 00:27:17:17
Joe Travaglione
Managed service providers because my expertise ends up being the cyber

00:27:17:17 - 00:27:34:15
Joe Travaglione
security space. But with any of the leadership in development, if anybody wanted to reach out, I'd always be willing to help. They're my expertise in operations ends up being on the cyber side, so I can add the leadership and the cyber to those businesses, hence why I help mostly managed service companies.

00:27:34:17 - 00:27:36:11
Craig Andrews
And how can people reach you?

00:27:36:13 - 00:27:37:21
Joe Travaglione
Definitely on LinkedIn.

00:27:37:21 - 00:27:42:23
Joe Travaglione
I have future state cyber.com is my website. I'm always adding content there.

00:27:42:23 - 00:27:45:02
Joe Travaglione
Craig is motivating me to put more,

00:27:45:02 - 00:27:51:04
Joe Travaglione
media outlets out there to, to get out there. And then on LinkedIn. I'm Joe Travaglione on LinkedIn as well.

00:27:51:06 - 00:27:54:21
Craig Andrews
Well, Joe, thanks so much for sharing these insights on layers and legacies.

00:27:54:23 - 00:28:00:15
Joe Travaglione
Thank you so much for your time, Craig. I really appreciate it.

00:28:00:15 - 00:28:27:10
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Alize for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this

00:28:27:10 - 00:28:29:05
Craig Andrews
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00:28:29:07 - 00:28:52:15
Craig Andrews
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00:28:52:17 - 00:29:00:21
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe your thumbs up! Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.

00:29:00:21 - 00:31:02:22
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Alize for me.com. or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.