Michael Roderick shares his unique framework—the triple-threat leadership model of Celebrity, Scientist, and Magician—to help leaders understand and leverage their core strengths. Drawing from his eclectic background, Michael reveals how knowing and embracing your natural talent can drive success. He also dives deep into the concept of reciprocity, showing how aligning with the right connections and delivering value without expecting immediate returns can fuel growth and create lasting impact. Michael’s insights are invaluable for anyone looking to enhance their influence and curate meaningful relationships in their professional journey.

Want to learn more about Michael Roderick’s work? Check out his website at http://www.smallpondenterprises.com/.

Connect with Michael Roderick on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-roderick-1161571/.

Key Points & Timestamps:

• [00:01:17] Introduction of Michael Roderick and his concept of "irresistible ideas."
• [00:02:00] Michael’s transition from high school teacher to Broadway producer.
• [00:04:07] The power of reciprocity and how timelines impact professional relationships.
• [00:13:00] Explanation of the triple-threat model: Celebrity, Scientist, and Magician.
• [00:28:30] How to identify your dominant trait and its role in leadership.
• [00:37:00] Content creation strategies for Celebrities, Scientists, and Magicians.
• [00:41:00] Wrap-up and invitation for leaders to share their stories on the podcast.

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment of my career.

00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;10
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on the show.

00;00;51;13 - 00;01;17;00
Craig Andrews
Today, I want to welcome Michael Roderick. I got to meet Michael through a networking group that he and one of his colleagues hosted. And he opened my eyes to something absolutely powerful. And we're going to talk about that today. If you're in business, you need to hear today's talk. It's going to change the way you view things. It hits one of my principles.

00;01;17;00 - 00;01;28;19
Craig Andrews
We talk about irresistible ideas at something that when it's presented, it immediately makes sense. And you immediately want it. And Michael has done that in the concept that he's going to share with us today.

00;01;28;19 - 00;01;44;25
Craig Andrews
He's the founder of Small Pond Enterprises. And he has the Access to Anyone podcast. One of his claims to fame, as he went from a high school English teacher to a Broadway producer into years.

00;01;44;28 - 00;01;55;19
Craig Andrews
He knows how to get you publicity. He knows how to get you in front of the people that you wouldn't be in front of. And I can't think of a business in this world that that's not important to,

00;01;55;19 - 00;02;03;02
Craig Andrews
Unless maybe you're in some of the shadier businesses of New York where Michael lives. And. But that's a different that's a different podcast.

00;02;03;04 - 00;02;04;22
Craig Andrews
Michael, welcome.

00;02;04;25 - 00;02;07;11
Michael Roderick
Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

00;02;07;14 - 00;02;15;18
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So the high school English teacher to Broadway producer in two years, what's the word there?

00;02;15;20 - 00;02;16;09
Michael Roderick
So,

00;02;16;09 - 00;02;18;01
Michael Roderick
one of the things that I had learned about,

00;02;18;01 - 00;02;25;06
Michael Roderick
Broadway in particular, was that for most Broadway producers, the, the goal was credit.

00;02;25;06 - 00;02;38;22
Michael Roderick
So the idea would be that you would go to a producer and you would negotiate for credit, and you'd basically say, I'll raise this amount of money so that my name is above the title on, you know, act, show or whatever the scenario was.

00;02;38;22 - 00;02;47;10
Michael Roderick
And when I was getting started, I basically went to producers and I said, you know what? I'm actually not interested in credit.

00;02;47;10 - 00;02;57;19
Michael Roderick
I just want to get better at raising money. So if you're willing to give me deal flow, then I'm willing to just sort of forego the credit piece and just kind of go out there and practice,

00;02;57;19 - 00;02;58;17
Michael Roderick
raising money.

00;02;58;17 - 00;02;59;11
Michael Roderick
And,

00;02;59;11 - 00;03;03;19
Michael Roderick
lo and behold, a lot of producers wanted to take me up on that.

00;03;03;19 - 00;03;23;11
Michael Roderick
So I ended up going out there. And the interesting sort of side effect of that was when I would talk to an investor, whereas most of the other producers had one show, I actually had a portfolio of shows. So if somebody said they weren't interested in one, I had 4 or 5 pieces of paperwork on other shows.

00;03;23;14 - 00;03;29;14
Michael Roderick
So I ended up finding a lot more investors and, and folks. And then word got around and eventually somebody,

00;03;29;14 - 00;03;36;00
Michael Roderick
another producer just offered me credit for one of the shows that I decided to raise money on. And,

00;03;36;00 - 00;03;39;01
Michael Roderick
that's how I moved so quickly in that,

00;03;39;01 - 00;03;40;24
Michael Roderick
in that industry.

00;03;40;26 - 00;04;05;02
Craig Andrews
Well, you know, and the thing that I love about that and you, I mean, something else you run is the gem network. You know, that's that is an hour and a half once a month about delivering pure value. And I can see why that's something you do. Because that's how you got your launch as a producer. You went in, you're like, I'm going to focus a little bit less on me, focus more on what they're looking for.

00;04;05;04 - 00;04;07;09
Craig Andrews
And doggone if it didn't work out for you.

00;04;07;11 - 00;04;22;27
Michael Roderick
Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the time when it comes down to you is that if you can, if you can help folks achieve the types of things that they're trying to, that they're trying to achieve, then word's just going to get around,

00;04;22;27 - 00;04;31;14
Michael Roderick
about the fact that that happens. And, and some people will then offer you different types of opportunities, and some people will want to partner with you.

00;04;31;21 - 00;04;34;11
Michael Roderick
Some people will want to work with you and in,

00;04;34;11 - 00;04;51;18
Michael Roderick
other in other ways. But it's all about that aspect of like identify people that you would like to, basically build relationships with and then ask yourself, how can I make them more successful? I think every time that you just ask that,

00;04;51;18 - 00;04;57;07
Michael Roderick
you're just way more likely to get a larger scale opportunity and have,

00;04;57;07 - 00;05;00;24
Michael Roderick
have things work out strongly.

00;05;00;26 - 00;05;03;26
Craig Andrews
You know, I've, I've had,

00;05;03;26 - 00;05;11;26
Craig Andrews
I've had some surprises in that area where sometimes I do that and they're like, I don't want what you're selling. I'm like, I'm not selling anything. I'm just.

00;05;11;26 - 00;05;19;13
Michael Roderick
Yeah, it's ha ha. Yeah, yeah. Well, the thing is, we're so we're conditioned,

00;05;19;13 - 00;05;20;04
Michael Roderick
to,

00;05;20;04 - 00;05;25;06
Michael Roderick
sort of believe that anything that's given is,

00;05;25;06 - 00;05;59;14
Michael Roderick
a play for some kind of reciprocity, right? Like, it's just it's it's part of what we've learned. It's part of what's been sort of put into, you know, put into the world. So it's, it's natural that a lot of people feel leery whenever you're going to give or sort of support or help, you know, in, in some way, because they've probably had an experience where somebody did do something for them and then came back to them and maybe had like a much, much bigger ask or, you know, was selling,

00;05;59;15 - 00;06;19;09
Michael Roderick
you know, was selling something and asked that person to, you know, ask that person to buy. And the way that I think about it is you help the folks that, you know, you you want to help and you ask for the things that you need. You just let people know, like, this is what I'm looking for. This is what I can use support with.

00;06;19;12 - 00;06;21;11
Michael Roderick
And they're either going to

00;06;21;11 - 00;06;52;23
Michael Roderick
want to help you because they resonate with you and they're interested or they're not. And either way is fine. Like you, there's plenty of folks out there who have interest in supporting you and what you're doing, and there are plenty of folks out there who have their own things going on. And we just we do what we can to support those in our in our lives, and we make sure that folks know what it is that we're looking for.

00;06;52;25 - 00;07;23;03
Michael Roderick
And then that's really all you can do. I think a lot of the time with especially with reciprocity, there's this trying to sort of structure the game of like, I'm going to give this thing and I'm going to ask you for this thing and it's going to and it just doesn't it just doesn't work that way because you never know where somebody is in their life and you don't know if they need what you have or if they don't need what you have, or if they know somebody who needs what you have.

00;07;23;03 - 00;07;30;02
Michael Roderick
So I find that any time that you try to kind of like plan out the, the game. Right.

00;07;30;02 - 00;07;34;11
Michael Roderick
It just it doesn't really work.

00;07;34;13 - 00;07;55;26
Craig Andrews
Now, you've used the word a couple times. Reciprocity, which is, a code word for marketers. We hear it. We know immediately what it means. I was in conversation recently where somebody clearly didn't know what I was talking about. So. Yeah. Tell me if you agree with this definition. You know, we have this internal force in our brains that always tries to keep the scales balanced.

00;07;55;28 - 00;08;08;09
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So when you give it unbalances the scales and marketers know that when you unbalanced the scales, it's going to trigger a response where they try to give back so they can bring balance back. Would you say that's.

00;08;08;12 - 00;08;37;03
Michael Roderick
Yes. But the there is a nuance to this that most folks never really address or sort of look at, and that is that everybody that you meet has both a reciprocity impulse as well as a reciprocity timeline. So if you have a very strong reciprocity impulse, it's very hard for you to receive. So you give back as quickly as possible because it feels uncomfortable.

00;08;37;05 - 00;09;00;23
Michael Roderick
If you have a weak reciprocity impulse, then what tends to happen is you are totally fine with receiving a feel. You know, you're just like, yeah, whatever. You know, and and it doesn't feel uncomfortable. So it's it's less likely that you're trying to sort of give back right away or do something right away. And in many cases, you may not even necessarily think about it.

00;09;00;24 - 00;09;27;20
Michael Roderick
Somebody might have to clue you in, to, you know, to the fact that there's something that you could help with or or that you could do the other side. And this ties to what we were talking about at the very beginning is the reciprocity timeline. And if you are somebody, let's say, who has a lot of influence, then what ends up happening is a lot of people come to you and they give you things because they're expecting you to give them something back in return.

00;09;27;27 - 00;10;00;07
Michael Roderick
So for a lot of the time, when ends up happening is your timeline gets extended, and rather than just giving something back right away, you spend time kind of vetting the other person and figuring out, should I introduce this person to my network or to these opportunities, or do these things for them? Because you've probably been burned before, you've had experiences that didn't quite work out and all of us have some level of a reciprocity impulse and a level of a reciprocity timeline.

00;10;00;12 - 00;10;16;14
Michael Roderick
And they're different for everybody. So we can't just say, okay, if I do this, this is coming back right away, or this is how this person's going to interact, because we don't know what kind of reciprocity impulse or what kind of reciprocity timeline somebody has.

00;10;16;17 - 00;10;42;11
Craig Andrews
That is such a powerful clarification, because I could see people getting confused saying, hey, I did all the right things, but I think, I think if I'm hearing you correctly, focus on delivering value to people and worry less about the time frame. It's, you know, you're, you know, we talk about packing the sales funnel. You're basically packing the funnel.

00;10;42;13 - 00;10;51;00
Craig Andrews
And as the timeline hits, what different people, you know, then things and things just kind of come out of the blue.

00;10;51;03 - 00;10;59;17
Michael Roderick
Yeah, yeah. And it's it's one of those things where one of the, the most important lessons I ever learned about relationship building,

00;10;59;17 - 00;11;12;23
Michael Roderick
came from an investor. And it was it was way, way back. I was, I thought I was a hot shot because I could sort of introduce you to 18 or 20 people, you know, and I was like, I know all these people.

00;11;12;23 - 00;11;38;25
Michael Roderick
And, you know, I was doing all this stuff. And I rattled off all these names to this guy, thinking, I'm really just going to impress him with all the people I know. And he stopped me dead and he said, listen. He's like, you got to clean your pipeline. He's like, if you are not curating and thinking very, very carefully about who is an actual fit for me to talk to you, then lose my number.

00;11;38;27 - 00;12;09;13
Michael Roderick
Like he was very, very direct. But what it taught me was how important it is for us to curate and really think about how am I developing, building a relationship. And if I've got somebody who I have developed a relationship with and I feel like they're very good, a good part of my, my, my circle and they're really, really solid, how am I deepening that relationship versus the ones where it's like, it's so fly by night?

00;12;09;13 - 00;12;24;26
Michael Roderick
It's like, you know, nobody's really taking the time to really think about the other person. So that aspect of curating is, is so, so powerful and so few people ever, ever think about it or pay attention to it.

00;12;24;28 - 00;12;25;15
Craig Andrews
Yeah,

00;12;25;15 - 00;12;41;26
Craig Andrews
that's wow. That is so powerful. I we can talk about this, I'm sure, for the whole episode because you're you're really waking me up to a few ideas. I hadn't really thought about. Yeah, but the thing I really want to make sure we cover.

00;12;42;03 - 00;12;43;00
Michael Roderick
Yeah.

00;12;43;02 - 00;12;47;10
Craig Andrews
Is this concept of the celebrity, the scientist and the magician.

00;12;47;13 - 00;12;48;06
Michael Roderick
Yes.

00;12;48;09 - 00;12;50;10
Craig Andrews
What is it? And why does it matter?

00;12;50;13 - 00;13;03;28
Michael Roderick
Yeah. So because I come from the theater world, one of the things that you learn about in the theater world is the idea of a triple threat. And the concept of the triple threat is that as a triple threat, you are,

00;13;03;28 - 00;13;10;12
Michael Roderick
proficient in these three areas acting, singing, and dancing. So people will be like, you're a triple threat.

00;13;10;12 - 00;13;37;29
Michael Roderick
You're an actor, singer, dancer. But the order of those things is incredibly important, and paying attention to that order really kind of changes your career and changes your opportunity. So if you are an actor, singer, dancer, it means acting is your top talent. Singing is your secondary talent, and dancing you can kind of move. So if that's the top talent is acting, you should be trying out for straight plays.

00;13;37;29 - 00;13;55;04
Michael Roderick
You should be spending most of your time in film and TV, and if there is a musical, you should make sure it's a musical that shows off your acting chops, because you're not going to be able to show yourself off very well. With a lot of the campy, silly musicals that are very, very dance heavy, and it doesn't tie to that strength.

00;13;55;06 - 00;13;59;29
Michael Roderick
So when I started to think about this idea of triple threat, I realized that

00;13;59;29 - 00;14;21;00
Michael Roderick
all of us are also triple threats and have an order to our top talents. And that's the scientist, the celebrity, and the magician. So the scientist is obsessed with the subject matter. Scientists love to dig really, really deep into things. They love to break things down.

00;14;21;00 - 00;14;49;28
Michael Roderick
They could spend their entire time in the lab, so to speak, and never leave like they love just picking things apart. It's just a very natural thing. The celebrity doesn't really care about that. The celebrity loves people. They love the promotional aspect. They are comfortable sharing things, putting things out there. Just like being around folks, hosting gatherings, doing all of those types of things.

00;14;50;00 - 00;15;13;11
Michael Roderick
And the magician doesn't care about either of those things very much, because the magician is wired for novelty. So the magician is constantly thinking, how do I do something incredibly different? How do I do something that is experiential? How do I say something in such a way that nobody else is saying, and they can't do things the way that everybody else does them.

00;15;13;11 - 00;15;34;29
Michael Roderick
It drives them nuts to whatever the conformed sort of process is. It drives a magician nuts. They can't do it. They've always got to look at some things from a different sort of standpoint. So the order of those things and what your top talent is, is a major factor in terms of how successful you are.

00;15;35;01 - 00;15;42;05
Craig Andrews
Interesting. Let me pause for a minute just so we can wrap our heads around. So think of people in business entrepreneurs maybe,

00;15;42;05 - 00;15;46;24
Craig Andrews
what's an example of a celebrity? What's an example of a scientist, and what's an example of a magician?

00;15;47;01 - 00;15;47;26
Michael Roderick
Sure.

00;15;47;26 - 00;15;58;15
Michael Roderick
So celebrities are very, very good at sort of the promotional aspect. And they love that sort of like being out there. So one,

00;15;58;15 - 00;16;03;26
Michael Roderick
very, very powerful example of a celebrity would be a Gary Vaynerchuk.

00;16;03;26 - 00;16;18;23
Michael Roderick
Because when you think about it, Gary is a personality. Right? And celebrity is what he leans on. He leans on his, his ideas about things, his predictions about things.

00;16;18;23 - 00;16;53;28
Michael Roderick
It is all about how do I sort of share my viewpoint with with people. And if you look at his relationship, building his process, like all those things, it is very much like he's just in your face, right? Like he's he's out there in a much, much more significant way than most people. If you ask him about studies and breaking things down and percentages and all those things, he's got somebody else who deals with that kind of stuff, right?

00;16;53;28 - 00;17;37;22
Michael Roderick
Like he doesn't mess around with the science of things when he's out there. When he's out there promoting, he can use it, but he's not going to. That's not his strength, right? His strength is going to be being onstage. His strength is going to be being on video. That's what's going to really work for him. Camp. Okay, a scientist is somebody like a Malcolm Gladwell because he goes and gets super, super deep into the breakdown of things, sort of how it all, you know, how it all works, what that particular process is.

00;17;37;25 - 00;18;04;12
Michael Roderick
And then he just shares his findings. That's how he operates. He's not out there doing a bunch of videos. He's not out there meeting a bunch of people. I literally saw him on the on the sidewalk one one day here, here in New York. And he looked terrified that I recognized him, like terrified, you know, and like, was walking across the street when he noticed me looking at like.

00;18;04;16 - 00;18;14;11
Michael Roderick
So that's the thing, right? Like this Santa, it's like they love the the science of it. They they don't want a lot of sort of the celebrity sort of,

00;18;14;11 - 00;18;16;14
Michael Roderick
you know, component of it. Now, the.

00;18;16;14 - 00;18;22;17
Craig Andrews
Middle like, I mean, so like Gary Vee, there's endless photos of people doing selfies with Gary Vee.

00;18;22;20 - 00;18;23;19
Michael Roderick
Yep.

00;18;23;21 - 00;18;34;05
Craig Andrews
Yeah. That's the celebrity. The scientist is like, hey, leave me alone. I don't want to take a selfie with you. I just want to do my work. I'll let you know what the what the results are.

00;18;34;11 - 00;18;58;24
Michael Roderick
Yes, exactly. Exactly. And the thing is, those people are pushed in some cases to like, add the celebrity piece to it. So like, they'll do a podcast interview or they'll do something, you know, but like, for the most part, they are really at heart just interested in the science. Like they'd love to just spend all of their time doing that.

00;18;58;28 - 00;19;36;08
Michael Roderick
They because of promotional aspects, they do the other things, but they don't really care about that. Right now. I would argue that Seth Godin is a magician. Okay. And here's why. Because if you go all the way back and watch Seth's career, he's probably one of the most prolific idea people that you could you could imagine the variance of the types of books that he's written about all the different ways he's thought about marketing.

00;19;36;11 - 00;20;00;29
Michael Roderick
If you go and you look up a talk from Seth Godin, and then you look up another talk, they are going to be very, very different. He's always coming up with some different angle, some different, different idea. And when he shares his concepts, you're talking about them forever, right? Like you're just like, that's really fascinating. That's really, really interesting.

00;20;01;02 - 00;20;32;21
Michael Roderick
And that's what he thrives on. And he does not, you know, embrace the world of celebrity. But he's attained the level of celebrity because he's leaned into that magician element. If you even look at how he sold his books, he was one of the first people to take a Kickstarter campaign and use it as a tool to basically sell like collectible items of his books.

00;20;32;21 - 00;21;03;05
Michael Roderick
It is a it is a power magician move in terms, in terms of that, that process. Now, the thing is, those are three examples. And the thing that makes these people triple threat is that they can do the other things, but they've leaned into their top talent, and that's why we know who they are. Imagine Gary Vaynerchuk trying to be a scientist.

00;21;03;07 - 00;21;04;04
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Yeah.

00;21;04;05 - 00;21;27;15
Michael Roderick
Right. It it just doesn't it doesn't work. But he can find the science. He can find a scientist to interview or connect with and that can, you know, work really, really well. But for him, no, it wouldn't land. It doesn't work because of his personality, because of his style, because of what his top talent is.

00;21;27;18 - 00;21;33;16
Craig Andrews
Now, you said a couple months ago that the order of your natural leaning determines your success.

00;21;33;16 - 00;21;34;15
Michael Roderick
Yes.

00;21;34;17 - 00;21;44;02
Craig Andrews
So does that mean if I'm a scientist, I'm forever going to be limited? Because I well, I guess what's what's the top category and what are the limitations?

00;21;44;07 - 00;22;15;02
Michael Roderick
Yeah. So that's the thing. There is no top category. So there is no it because our perception is what creates this this dynamic. Right. So the celebrities in our life, everybody is a celebrity to somebody. But celebrity is relative to everybody. Right. So for some people Gary Vaynerchuk is a celebrity. To some people they have no idea who Gary Vaynerchuk is.

00;22;15;08 - 00;22;37;24
Michael Roderick
Same with Seth Godin, right? Same with the celebrities that we know in the in the acting, in the acting world, in the business world, like the people that we're like, wow, that's a celebrity or everybody knows who they are, well, go to a different market and and they have no idea who they are, but there's somebody who's sort of really standing out.

00;22;38;01 - 00;23;05;05
Michael Roderick
Now, the thing is, it's not about one talent is better than the other. It's about what is your major strength? What is your top talent? Because when you lean into that top talent, that's what really creates just the fire and all of the opportunities for you. And most of the time, we don't know the order of our triple threat.

00;23;05;07 - 00;23;16;00
Michael Roderick
And most of the time we don't. Even if we know our top talent, we actually don't lean into it because most of the lessons that we learn,

00;23;16;00 - 00;23;27;29
Michael Roderick
follow exactly what you asked me, which is what's that top thing? What's the thing I should be doing versus who am I and how am I leaning into that?

00;23;28;02 - 00;23;48;16
Craig Andrews
I, you know, I love that one of my moments of greatest joy when I'm working with clients is when I realize I'm talking to somebody who's trying to be somebody that they're not, because some marketer told them to be. Yep. And I look at them and I will say, Michael, you are going to be horrible at faking. You know, somebody else.

00;23;48;18 - 00;23;49;11
Michael Roderick
Yes.

00;23;49;13 - 00;24;03;29
Craig Andrews
Nobody can be Michael better than Michael. Yeah. And the relief I see come over their face when I tell them that. Yeah, it makes my day. That's usually the highlight of my day. Well, I realize I just liberated somebody from that horrible yoke.

00;24;04;02 - 00;24;39;16
Michael Roderick
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And that's the thing. It's like we all are presented with this idea. I've often referred to it as the myth of the day sex, Mac. And so in the theater world, there's this idea that if the play's going really poorly, everything's going bad for the characters. The deus ex machina was a god that would come down from the heavens and basically say, I'm Jupiter and everything's fine now and everything's been fixed, and this is carried over into all of our entertainment, right?

00;24;39;16 - 00;25;07;00
Michael Roderick
So if you've ever watched a horror movie, the deus ex machina is the silver bullet. The deus ex machina is the is the magic charm that kills the demon. There's always something that somebody is presenting as this one thing solves all of the problems. And if you think about it like that, is at the heart of most of the marketing messages in the world, is that this one thing will solve all those problems.

00;25;07;00 - 00;25;29;09
Michael Roderick
But that is the myth of the Deus ex machina. There is never one thing that solve all the problems. There is always a combination of things that helps you solve a problem. No matter how much you want to say it was this one thing and the the click, you know, the clicks that it will get when you say it's this one thing.

00;25;29;14 - 00;25;57;10
Michael Roderick
That one thing is always nuanced. There are always other elements, but it's hard for the brain to process more than one thing. So then we lean on that. So what ends up happening from a marketing standpoint is we start to believe that if I become famous, then I become rich. But there are plenty of people who are connection rich and cash poor in the world.

00;25;57;12 - 00;26;21;19
Michael Roderick
There are plenty of influencers who have millions, if not billions, of followers who still haven't figured out how to make a buck right like that, that believe that celebrity is the only way to attain the success that we want is simply,

00;26;21;19 - 00;26;23;19
Michael Roderick
a day or six. McKenna.

00;26;23;21 - 00;26;37;11
Craig Andrews
Interesting. So, so one of the questions that's running through my head right now is, okay, I need to figure out which I am. Am I the celebrity? Am I the scientist? Am I the magician? How do I figure that out about myself?

00;26;37;19 - 00;27;18;19
Michael Roderick
Yeah. So you want to ask yourself, what is the thing that comes so naturally to you that like, you just like it just seems like it just happens. Like it's almost like a it's like you can't imagine waking up one day and not being able to do it. Right. So if, let's say magician is your top thing, you can't imagine waking up and doing similar things and being in a repetitive process over and over and over again, like it like burns you up to feel it right?

00;27;18;21 - 00;27;46;07
Michael Roderick
If you are the celebrity, you can't imagine a world in which you are not just like out there interacting with people all the time, like you just can't imagine, like not being the celebrity. Like it just it bothers you that there there isn't some aspect of like interaction and sort of attention. And if you're the scientist, it bothers you.

00;27;46;10 - 00;28;19;18
Michael Roderick
If you can't research, if you can't break something down, if you can't spend all that time, and if you're a scientist, it's super easy for you, right? Like if you're a scientist, you can constantly think in a very scientific sort of like way. And again, you don't get bored with that. Like it's totally like, yeah, I can read like all these research studies or I can dig into my subject area and I can spend hours and hours and hours in that world, and I actually don't care if I talk to anybody else ever again, like I am more than happy.

00;28;19;20 - 00;28;46;03
Michael Roderick
So you and do that. And again, we're talking about the triple threat. So there's an order of those things. So it's not a matter of I am just a scientist or I am just a celebrity. It's like, what is the top talent? And then what is the order of the triple threat? Because that's what helps you figure out where you need to, either partners or other opportunities or create something to kind of fill in those gaps.

00;28;46;05 - 00;29;00;04
Craig Andrews
Well, I was thinking about that, you know, as you were describing these things, and I was thinking with the with the magician who asked, you know, hates structure and process. If you're going to have a successful business, you're going to have structure and process.

00;29;00;04 - 00;29;00;25
Michael Roderick
Yep.

00;29;00;27 - 00;29;12;15
Craig Andrews
So if you're a magician, you need a process. You need to hire a CFO. Get them in there quickly so you can do your magic and then keep the trains running on time.

00;29;12;15 - 00;29;50;05
Michael Roderick
Yes, exactly. And you and you see this instance all the time. And this plays out in every industry. This plays out in the world of entertainment because most of the celebrity actors that you see have somebody behind the scenes who is basically helping them do the predictable thing, right. Helping them figure out like, this is how to, like, make a living, you know, within this, you know, within this world, out of the celebrity that you've, that you've created.

00;29;50;05 - 00;30;18;13
Michael Roderick
But the thing is, like, there are actors who are way more magician like than anything than anything else, and they need somebody to help them figure out, okay, I know that you don't want to do this, this block buster film, but you've got to do this blockbuster film for this particular purpose. Like, I know you want to do the art house thing, but you cannot do that right now, right?

00;30;18;16 - 00;30;28;06
Craig Andrews
Yeah. No. And that makes so much sense. And I'll tell you what's resonating in my head, you know. So when we spoke earlier, you said, Craig, you're a scientist. Yeah. And I was just thinking about,

00;30;28;06 - 00;30;30;22
Craig Andrews
I forgot the phrase the Deus de Maximus.

00;30;30;29 - 00;30;33;15
Michael Roderick
Deus ex machina. Yeah.

00;30;33;18 - 00;30;51;21
Craig Andrews
The as a scientist, that's a struggle, because it's not one thing I'm like. And yeah, when you come out and like, oh, let me show you these ten things and how they interact and how they influence each other. Yeah. And your eyes glaze over and you run away because you're like, Craig, you hurt my head.

00;30;51;21 - 00;30;55;02
Craig Andrews
That's a weakness that goes with that strength.

00;30;55;05 - 00;30;59;08
Craig Andrews
So what? Who does a scientist need in their life?

00;30;59;11 - 00;31;20;21
Michael Roderick
Yeah. So scientists very often need magicians because the magician has the outside perspective. And most of the time, the magician is able to look at all of the mess that the scientist has and be able to say, this is the thing that's most compelling here. And if you think about it, each,

00;31;20;21 - 00;31;28;07
Michael Roderick
we we were talking about this a little bit earlier, if you think about it from the standpoint of like, what does each have?

00;31;28;10 - 00;32;01;08
Michael Roderick
Right? So a scientist becomes successful with an intriguing hypothesis. So if a scientist shows up and says, here is my theory about this particular thing, then people basically latch on to latch on to that. So what is Gladwell do? We go to Gladwell's Gladwell story? He was like, here is my theory about why these things happen in the world.

00;32;01;11 - 00;32;31;07
Michael Roderick
And people are like, oh yeah. Oh, and then what did he do? He backed up all of those all of those stories. And I would gather that somewhere in his life, he had somebody in a magician role who was able to say, here's what's most compelling about what you're talking about. Here's the here's the the theory of sort of how all of this, how all of this breaks down.

00;32;31;10 - 00;33;00;06
Michael Roderick
And he probably had at least one, maybe even more celeb abilities in his life who were like, listen, I know that you really like, just like doing the research, but it's probably a good idea for you to do this book tour or probably a good idea for you to do this. Yeah. You know, this, this panel or whatever the scenario is, because you need to interact with people in order for this thing to get out there and sort of help and, and support.

00;33;00;12 - 00;33;45;22
Michael Roderick
So a lot of the time what happens is our strength, our gift also creates a gap. So as the scientist, you're able to see it all, but because you're able to see it all, you become overwhelmed by your expertise. Like that's just how it works for scientists. And with the magician, you're able to see every possibility. But you have a hell of a time breaking it down and deciding on one possibility, or staying with one possibility for, you know, for a while with the celebrity, you're great at sort of connecting with people, getting to know people, building all these things.

00;33;45;24 - 00;34;04;29
Michael Roderick
But you're not so great at what's behind it all. Like if you're the sizzle, it's like, what's the steak? It's a little tricky for a celebrity because in many cases they're just like, I'm just a great, really personable person and I've just become successful because I'm a personable person. They can't

00;34;04;29 - 00;34;08;26
Michael Roderick
often break down what it is that they're actually doing.

00;34;08;26 - 00;34;27;27
Michael Roderick
So they need those scientists and those magicians in their life. It's the combination of the people with the different top talents. When you lean into your existing talent, that can create major, major results. Oh.

00;34;27;29 - 00;34;33;02
Craig Andrews
I love that. One of the things as you're going through and thinking about it,

00;34;33;02 - 00;34;41;16
Craig Andrews
I think about Gary Vee, Gary Van, Jack and I, I'm always feel guilty when I look at his post because he's like,

00;34;41;16 - 00;34;42;11
Craig Andrews
I posted,

00;34;42;11 - 00;34;47;15
Craig Andrews
ten things to social media. And that's before I had breakfast. Yeah. And,

00;34;47;15 - 00;34;51;13
Craig Andrews
I'm like, I couldn't create that much content if I tried.

00;34;51;18 - 00;34;52;14
Michael Roderick
Yeah.

00;34;52;16 - 00;35;03;05
Craig Andrews
So what what type of content should a celebrity make? What type of content should a magician make, and what type of content should scientists make?

00;35;03;11 - 00;35;31;05
Michael Roderick
Yeah. So celebrities, they're always going to do better with prolific personality based content because people love them. They love their personality. So Gary doing something ten times and literally being like, oh, you know, I just had this idea about, you know, the toast that I ate this morning, you know, etc. and, oh, here's a, here's a kid running across the street like, they love that kind of stuff, right?

00;35;31;05 - 00;35;58;06
Michael Roderick
Like it works really, really well for them. Right? And if you're a celebrity post like crazy, basically be in everybody's face like you're probably going to do pretty, you're probably going to do pretty well. If your top talent is a magician, you want to spend most of your time thinking about like, interesting and sort of creative ways of doing things.

00;35;58;06 - 00;36;20;12
Michael Roderick
So a lot of magicians tend to spend more of their time in the written word than they do in video. It's not that they don't do video, but if you encounter a magician in a video scenario, they're not just taking some like random thing. They're coming up with balls. They're coming up with things that like, you hear it and you're just like, oh my God, I like, I can't believe you said that, or you broke that.

00;36;20;13 - 00;36;49;29
Michael Roderick
You know, you broke that particular thing down. They're usually coming up with different sort of angles and approaches like that type of thing. So if you're a magician, ask yourself what everybody else is doing content wise, and then start to challenge all the assumptions and you'll probably do pretty well as a as a magician. And then if you're a scientist and this is really important if you're a scientist, do

00;36;49;29 - 00;36;51;29
Michael Roderick
deep content.

00;36;52;02 - 00;37;20;28
Michael Roderick
So take the time to break something down and really talk about all of the nuance and all of the things you know within it. Because basically people are then going to see that you have far more expert teachers than the average, than the average person. So if you're a scientist, you're going to get a lot more traction out of doing a teardown and literally being like, okay, this company just tanked, you know, in the, you know, in the media.

00;37;21;06 - 00;37;51;10
Michael Roderick
Here is a very long post or description of the five bullet points as to what I think they did wrong, right side by side with, like what people did right and like numbers and and and you know, different, you know, things that you reference or talk about that's going to get you far more traction as a scientist because basically people look at scientists from the standpoint of like, do they know their stuff?

00;37;51;13 - 00;38;09;18
Michael Roderick
Right? We don't really care, pay very much attention to whether or not the celebrity nose knows their stuff, because we just trust them and we like them with the magician, we don't really necessarily care how much you know, how much stuff they have to back it up because we're just like, that's really cool, and I want to hang out with that.

00;38;09;18 - 00;38;33;24
Michael Roderick
Like that. Really cool and sort of interesting, you know, thing. So we look at like each of the categories, the celebrity creates a small crowd. And then eventually that crowd becomes bigger and bigger and bigger. But the celebrity creates a small crowd. The scientist creates an intriguing hypothesis. They come up with a theory, and then they prove that thing like crazy.

00;38;33;26 - 00;38;40;01
Michael Roderick
And the magician comes up with a magic box. They create something that you're like,

00;38;40;01 - 00;38;52;23
Michael Roderick
that is fascinating. I need to know more. I need to know more about you. I need to know more about this. And people follow them because they're curious about what is inside of the magic box.

00;38;52;25 - 00;39;06;29
Craig Andrews
Wow, Mike, I feel like we could spend another hour on this. I wish we could. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like we're just starting to scratch the surface for somebody that wants to learn more.

00;39;07;01 - 00;39;07;11
Michael Roderick
Yeah.

00;39;07;15 - 00;39;08;28
Craig Andrews
Do they reach you?

00;39;09;01 - 00;39;09;20
Michael Roderick
Yeah.

00;39;09;20 - 00;39;11;02
Michael Roderick
So I'm. I'm, of course, just,

00;39;11;02 - 00;39;11;21
Michael Roderick
I'm on,

00;39;11;21 - 00;39;12;25
Michael Roderick
I'm on LinkedIn.

00;39;12;25 - 00;39;13;07
Michael Roderick
Under,

00;39;13;07 - 00;39;18;10
Michael Roderick
under my name. They can also go to my refer ability reader.com.

00;39;18;10 - 00;39;20;22
Michael Roderick
And you can do a test that basically asks,

00;39;20;22 - 00;39;26;10
Michael Roderick
questions about your referrer ability. It helps you figure out sort of how referable you are. And then,

00;39;26;10 - 00;39;28;02
Michael Roderick
you'll be on my mailing list.

00;39;28;02 - 00;39;34;03
Michael Roderick
You'll be able to connect with me in all sorts of different ways. I respond to everybody on my mailing list.

00;39;34;03 - 00;39;36;18
Michael Roderick
I put a lot of content out on there.

00;39;36;18 - 00;39;47;13
Michael Roderick
So. Yeah. So if they, if if they check out my referral rate.com or just reach out to me on, on the socials, always happy to chat and see where I can be helpful.

00;39;47;15 - 00;39;48;14
Craig Andrews
That's awesome.

00;39;48;14 - 00;40;09;04
Craig Andrews
I, I can say that you have really opened my eyes. You've helped me understand my strengths and my weaknesses and the thing that I love about this framework is it's that irresistible idea. It's immediately clear, it's simple, it's desirable, and it helps me figure out the next steps I want to take. And I believe that's done.

00;40;09;10 - 00;40;12;02
Craig Andrews
It's done that. For those listening, thank you for sharing that.

00;40;12;04 - 00;40;17;04
Michael Roderick
Of course, of course. My absolute pleasure.

00;40;17;04 - 00;40;43;28
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Alize for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this

00;40;43;28 - 00;40;45;23
Craig Andrews
episode on social media.

00;40;45;25 - 00;41;09;07
Craig Andrews
Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or posted on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest, tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.

00;41;09;09 - 00;41;17;14
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe your thumbs up! Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.

00;41;17;14 - 00;43;19;19
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Alize for me.com. or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.