Paul Glover, a former trial lawyer turned leadership coach, who shares his compelling story of transformation. Glover, once convicted of white-collar crimes and imprisoned, learned to turn failure into a tool for leadership success. He highlights the concept of “the fool,” someone who speaks hard truths to leaders, allowing them to grow and succeed. Drawing from his personal experiences, Glover emphasizes the importance of vulnerability and storytelling in leadership, stressing that leaders must confront their failures to inspire trust and build lasting legacies. His journey from criminal to coach is a testament to resilience, the power of accountability, and the need for self-transformation in leadership.

Want to learn more about Paul Glover's work? Check out his website at paulglovercoaching.com.

Connect with Paul Glover on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulglovercoaching/.

Key Points (with Timestamps):

• [00:01:13] Introduction of Paul Glover and his background in organized crime and leadership coaching.
• [00:02:20] Paul Glover discusses his transformation from a trial lawyer to a leadership coach after serving prison time.
• [00:04:18] The role of “the fool” in medieval times and how it applies to leadership today.
• [00:11:50] Importance of storytelling in leadership and how it helps leaders connect emotionally with their teams.
• [00:15:10] How Paul Glover's prison experience reshaped his views on service and ego.
• [00:27:50] Recidivism in prison and its parallels to business leadership; Paul’s realization of the need for change.
• [00:30:19] How leaders can implement the “fool” concept in their own lives and businesses.
• [00:34:36] Craig shares his personal story of being challenged by someone who acted as a “fool” in his life.

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment of my career.

00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;10
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on the show.

00;00;51;10 - 00;01;03;06
Craig Andrews
Today I will welcome Paul Glover. This is going to be a interesting talk, and I don't even know how to preface it, but, you know, a few episodes ago we had a guest that grew up,

00;01;03;06 - 00;01;13;20
Craig Andrews
and one of his best buddies was the grandson of the head of the Mafia for new Jersey. And Paul has told me that he was never part of the Mafia.

00;01;13;22 - 00;01;37;02
Craig Andrews
It was instead organized crime. So I'm interested in learning what the difference is. But more importantly, Paul is somebody whose life lives out. The experience of you make mistakes and you move forward with them. And he has this concept of the full. Now how he asked his wife to be the fool. And she agreed. I think that's worth listening to.

00;01;37;03 - 00;01;43;13
Craig Andrews
And he's still happily married. From everything I can say. So I think we have a lot to learn from Paul today.

00;01;43;13 - 00;01;49;04
Craig Andrews
And because we all have to come back from failure at some point. Paul.

00;01;49;04 - 00;01;56;22
Paul Glover
Welcome back. Thank you so much. I appreciate being here, being able to talk to you and your audience.

00;01;56;24 - 00;02;02;01
Craig Andrews
So I you know, I forgot to mention a couple of things. I mean, it's aside from all of that.

00;02;02;01 - 00;02;07;02
Craig Andrews
You know, I, I forgot to mention that you're a convicted felon. You lost your law license.

00;02;07;02 - 00;02;08;06
Craig Andrews
And you,

00;02;08;06 - 00;02;17;22
Craig Andrews
but you turned around, and you're a TEDx speaker and you're vintage speaker, so obviously, obviously, you've figured out how to rebound from failure.

00;02;17;23 - 00;02;19;27
Craig Andrews
You did prison time.

00;02;20;00 - 00;02;22;04
Paul Glover
I absolutely you're right. I,

00;02;22;04 - 00;02;27;26
Paul Glover
I was a, trial lawyer in the city of Chicago, a very successful federal trial lawyer,

00;02;27;26 - 00;02;29;10
Paul Glover
very successful and,

00;02;29;10 - 00;02;41;24
Paul Glover
committed white collar crimes that put me in prison for seven years. Got out after five and a half, took my case to the Supreme Court, by the way, not to prove innocence, but to get a reduction in time.

00;02;41;26 - 00;02;47;01
Paul Glover
Got out and could no longer practice law, which was the love of my professional life.

00;02;47;01 - 00;02;48;26
Paul Glover
Took my skill sets as a,

00;02;48;26 - 00;02;57;10
Paul Glover
a critical thinker and a good storyteller. If you're going to be a trial attorney, you have a jury that you better take on a journey. And you do that through storytelling.

00;02;57;10 - 00;02;58;22
Paul Glover
So critical thinking.

00;02;58;24 - 00;03;16;08
Paul Glover
But I also, I also took my personal experience and, decided that this combination of skill sets would make me a good leadership coach. And I started that that took it out and developed the practice. Right now, I have a national,

00;03;16;08 - 00;03;18;15
Paul Glover
executive coaching practice.

00;03;18;15 - 00;03;23;22
Paul Glover
And I do it on the basis of what you've already mentioned, the concept of the pool.

00;03;23;24 - 00;03;25;15
Paul Glover
In medieval times, the,

00;03;25;15 - 00;03;30;26
Paul Glover
the king had a person that we recognized as an entertainer. The jester,

00;03;30;26 - 00;03;34;01
Paul Glover
dressed like a clown. Said if the foot of the king and,

00;03;34;01 - 00;03;42;13
Paul Glover
And we thought God got up, sang a song, did a little dance that was not the posture of the of the pool because the king had been anointed by,

00;03;42;13 - 00;03;44;14
Paul Glover
by God divine right.

00;03;44;16 - 00;04;18;24
Paul Glover
Anyone who questioned the king, committed heresy and therefore could could be sentenced to death. The fool, because they were seen to be crazy, had the psychological safety to talk to the king and tell them when they were making a mistake or behaving badly. And I looked at that concept and I said, that is what leadership needs. They need someone who is there for who cares enough about them and has enough wisdom or experience to tell them the truth when they're making a mistake or behaving badly.

00;04;18;26 - 00;04;22;18
Paul Glover
And I built my coaching practice around that concept.

00;04;22;18 - 00;04;33;09
Paul Glover
But what I tell everybody in my coaching program, I never advocate something that I haven't experienced. And you mentioned my wife earlier. We've been married 43 years, by the way.

00;04;33;09 - 00;04;39;07
Paul Glover
Now, think about those 43 years. And I was in prison for seven years. She would she stayed with me.

00;04;39;10 - 00;04;40;22
Paul Glover
In our marriage,

00;04;40;22 - 00;04;44;13
Paul Glover
for that period of time, but I would you go ahead.

00;04;44;13 - 00;04;54;12
Craig Andrews
Let me let me stop you there. What are the statistic? I've heard this before, but I've forgotten. It's like after five years. How many marriages survived? Five years in prison?

00;04;54;18 - 00;05;05;25
Paul Glover
Good God, it's must be under single digits. I've. I've looked at it up, but it is extraordinarily difficult. Five years in prison is usually the death knell for any marriage, any relationship.

00;05;05;25 - 00;05;12;07
Paul Glover
By the way, marriage is usually make it through the first 1 or 2 years, but after that, it dissolves. I mean,

00;05;12;07 - 00;05;15;16
Paul Glover
you're you're you're in a completely different environment.

00;05;15;18 - 00;05;24;24
Paul Glover
You are you've been found guilty of crimes. I left my family financially and emotionally devastated. They didn't know I was a crook.

00;05;24;24 - 00;05;38;18
Paul Glover
They found out when I was indicted and when I had two trials, I spent every penny of our savings, put a second mortgage on the house, spent my two sons college education bunch paying lawyers so I would not go to prison.

00;05;38;18 - 00;05;42;18
Paul Glover
And knowing that I was guilty, I mean, there was no out.

00;05;42;18 - 00;05;49;01
Paul Glover
wasn't like I was trying to say, I didn't do this. I had absolutely done it. I was just trying to escape punishment.

00;05;49;01 - 00;05;52;00
Paul Glover
Did all of that and went to prison for seven years.

00;05;52;00 - 00;05;54;06
Paul Glover
I'm shocked my wife stayed with me.

00;05;54;09 - 00;06;00;08
Craig Andrews
That that's. I mean, that speaks volumes about you, and that speaks volumes about her.

00;06;00;08 - 00;06;07;22
Craig Andrews
We're missing a couple pieces of the puzzle. So first, you said you weren't in the Mafia, but you were in organized crime. What's the difference?

00;06;07;28 - 00;06;32;09
Paul Glover
Well, mafia is an old Mafia's an old Italian thing. And what it what has happened? Is that it? It's gone from that. This, you know, blood bottles and those type of things to a much more business like approach to crime. It was a business. And the people who are engaged in the activities that generate the illegal revenue are business guys now.

00;06;32;12 - 00;06;37;12
Paul Glover
And I represented them as a federal trial attorney. I represented them and,

00;06;37;12 - 00;06;40;08
Paul Glover
I became fascinated with them.

00;06;40;08 - 00;06;58;04
Paul Glover
They they I tell everyone, being a trial attorney is being an adrenaline junkie. The problem is, when you're not in trial, you're preparing for trial, and it's four hours of prep for every hour in, and the courtroom is just extraordinarily dull.

00;06;58;05 - 00;06;59;14
Paul Glover
It's boring.

00;06;59;14 - 00;07;02;01
Paul Glover
And by the way, there's no adrenaline there.

00;07;02;01 - 00;07;19;28
Paul Glover
I was an adrenaline junkie, and my clients presented me with an opportunity to participate in their activities, and they wanted me to. Smart guy knew the law was going to help them do what they wanted to do and not get caught. So let's. So I wanted to be a part of that club.

00;07;19;28 - 00;07;25;03
Paul Glover
I wanted to join. Well, the initiation fee is committing felonies.

00;07;25;03 - 00;07;26;00
Paul Glover
And I did,

00;07;26;00 - 00;07;43;11
Paul Glover
and obviously went to prison. Over. So organized crime is now a business. It's not a family. The Mafia. The thing about blood oaths and everybody's connected. You get to be a made man. None of that stuff exists anymore. That's the definition. It's a business.

00;07;43;13 - 00;07;45;28
Craig Andrews
Okay. And the,

00;07;45;28 - 00;07;55;09
Craig Andrews
And you said you told me something before that at your sentencing, your judge, your judges. Greatest regret was they couldn't lock you away for longer.

00;07;55;11 - 00;08;03;07
Paul Glover
Absolutely. I had practice before this judge. And when I stood there, been found guilty after two trials. First trial was,

00;08;03;07 - 00;08;09;05
Paul Glover
was a deadlock. Right. And and so we came back in second trial. I was found guilty and. Yeah, he said,

00;08;09;05 - 00;08;17;11
Paul Glover
you know, Mr. Glover, you're a disgrace to the legal community. And if I had the opportunity, I would give you more time in prison.

00;08;17;11 - 00;08;30;28
Paul Glover
But the sentencing guidelines won't let me do that. Well, then he said, but I'm going to give you a chance here to rectify some of the situation. If you cooperate with the federal prosecutor,

00;08;30;28 - 00;08;42;07
Paul Glover
and give him information about those other people who participated with you in committing these crimes. I'm going to give you a year and a half off your your seven year sentence.

00;08;42;09 - 00;08;42;21
Paul Glover
Now,

00;08;42;21 - 00;09;01;26
Paul Glover
in retrospect, I would think that that everyone would say, well, well, of course, what you had, you're going to get a year off and you're going to do the right thing. You're going to tell the federal prosecutor about other criminals. I rejected that, I refused.

00;09;01;26 - 00;09;07;22
Craig Andrews
Well, you also had an experience when you found out about the indictment. There was somebody parked outside your house?

00;09;07;24 - 00;09;28;20
Paul Glover
Absolutely. I'd gotten a call. By the way, this was before cellphones, right. So so I, I had a message at my office to call someone at the Chicago Tribune. It was a reporter. I called him and he said, I just want to let you know that you've been indicted on 33 counts of crimes embezzlement, blackmail, threatening government witnesses.

00;09;28;23 - 00;09;34;03
Paul Glover
Because I'd been investigated for over a period of five years, and they finally had enough information,

00;09;34;03 - 00;09;35;27
Paul Glover
to, to indictment.

00;09;35;27 - 00;09;49;07
Paul Glover
And so I, by the way, got off the phone. I called one of my clients, and I said, hey, have you heard that I've been indicted? He said, yes. He said, don't go home tonight because it won't go well.

00;09;49;09 - 00;09;57;10
Paul Glover
He said, give me a chance to contact some other people. I know you, you're a stand up guy. I know that you're not going to involve anybody else in this.

00;09;57;10 - 00;10;07;10
Paul Glover
So don't go home. And I did. I took it serious. I recognized I call my wife, and I said, is there anybody to look at? We lived on a residential street.

00;10;07;12 - 00;10;24;04
Paul Glover
I said, look outside. Is there any unusual car or something? You know, it's not something unusual. And she said, yeah, there's somebody parked out there in front of our house. You just sitting there? I should call police and tell them to come and check this guy out. Well, as soon as the police arrived you up,

00;10;24;04 - 00;10;26;23
Paul Glover
and the next day, I'd had some reassurance.

00;10;26;23 - 00;10;29;09
Paul Glover
I made some reassurances. And the way I did it,

00;10;29;09 - 00;10;46;04
Paul Glover
Craig, in all honesty, was I said, look, I have enough information to put people in prison. And if anything happens to me and my family, that goes to the federal prosecutor. So I'm telling you, I'm not going to do anything that's going to harm anybody. You better not do anything that's going to harm me.

00;10;46;06 - 00;11;07;12
Paul Glover
Yeah. So we had two six week trials and it every day someone said that I knew someone sat in the back row every day of every, trial period. And at the end of that, I'd walk out, we'd be done for the day. I'd walk out and he would shake his head. Yes, I.

00;11;07;12 - 00;11;08;08
Craig Andrews
Would live another day.

00;11;08;13 - 00;11;20;01
Paul Glover
Everything's cool. Yeah, I was there. But if I had obviously started to deviate from that promise I made, he would have immediately gotten up left, and then who knows?

00;11;20;03 - 00;11;38;29
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Wow, wow. And, you know, there's something there's so much we could cover here and that this is the challenge for the time slot that we have. But one of the things that you said, and I just want to put, like, a quick spotlight on this, you said to be a trial attorney, you have to be a storyteller.

00;11;39;01 - 00;11;48;01
Craig Andrews
I would say I mean, one, I think people need to understand that a little bit better. But I would say to be effective in business in any form, you need to be a storyteller.

00;11;48;03 - 00;11;50;01
Paul Glover
I would agree, absolutely.

00;11;50;01 - 00;11;53;17
Paul Glover
By the way, that that's a problem for most leaders.

00;11;53;17 - 00;12;02;15
Paul Glover
The concept of leadership is a combination of critical thinking and emotional intelligence. You know, leadership in psychology, for the most part,

00;12;02;15 - 00;12;09;21
Paul Glover
most leaders don't get that. They believe that they tell someone the facts without the narrative that that's all they have to do.

00;12;09;24 - 00;12;27;14
Paul Glover
And no, people will hear the facts, but it doesn't persuade them or convince them to do anything. It's the story that gets connected to the facts that cause people to take positive action. That's the same thing in a jury trial. I took the jury on a journey,

00;12;27;14 - 00;12;37;03
Paul Glover
and the journey was all about making sure they understood that my client was not the bad person or, it's even better.

00;12;37;05 - 00;13;00;05
Paul Glover
They might be the bad person, but they were recovering. Yeah. They were. And the world loves a recovering scoundrel, so he might be a scoundrel. But if you're recovering, everybody looks at you differently. So anyway, that was the deal, is that I took them on the story about, you know, I call it the hero's Journey. Yeah. Turned my client into the key role.

00;13;00;06 - 00;13;11;03
Paul Glover
We would go through this journey, and at the end of that, I would hope that obviously the jury would, would side with me. By the way, most of the time they did very I was a very convincing storyteller.

00;13;11;05 - 00;13;41;29
Craig Andrews
Well, in something you just said there. I think it's also important for businesses to hear, you know, when my big issues is when I look at somebody as a badass page on their website. But some version of we were good until we became great. And it's not persuasive and it doesn't build trust. People are going to hear about us page, because they've concluded that you're you solve problems they have for people like them and they're going to you're about us page to figure out if they can trust you.

00;13;41;29 - 00;14;01;21
Craig Andrews
And you have some version of why I was good until I became great. And they're like, no, you're full of crap. You're not Superman. And what you just said. We love stories about people overcoming, about people coming back. And so you work that into your closing arguments or just the overall story that you told.

00;14;01;22 - 00;14;02;18
Paul Glover
Oh, absolutely.

00;14;02;18 - 00;14;07;18
Paul Glover
Yes. And and I would tell you that it's extremely effective,

00;14;07;18 - 00;14;22;21
Paul Glover
if you're, you know, we have we we everybody's got the buzzwords authenticity, vulnerability. Right. We with few of those words out, but we don't act on them. You see, if all you want to do is tell people how good you are, they can't connect to relate.

00;14;22;28 - 00;14;48;05
Paul Glover
Why? They're probably not that good. Otherwise they wouldn't be talking to you about your services. They need something. What they relate to is when you tell them, yes, I have, I have failed. I tell leaders you need to share the failing experience because that makes you relatable. And if you're honest about it, people will connect with you in a way that you can't get any other way.

00;14;48;09 - 00;14;51;21
Paul Glover
It is. It becomes something that they can relate to.

00;14;51;21 - 00;15;11;07
Paul Glover
But but to convince leaders to be vulnerable and talk about their failure is hard. It really is. They don't believe first, they don't like the fact that they bailed. They aren't they they're not certain that other people will be okay with that. But it it is absolutely essential for effective leadership.

00;15;11;09 - 00;15;30;05
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And, you know, one of my biggest challenges when I'm working with the client is when we write, we call this the irresistible story that goes on there about us page. And they look at and they they're like, well, I like this, but can you take out these things? I'm like, those are the things are going to build trust and,

00;15;30;05 - 00;15;37;14
Craig Andrews
fortunately, clients have extended me a lot of trust because I'm asking them to build things up and paid off for them.

00;15;37;16 - 00;15;58;13
Craig Andrews
That's always a nice part. But, you know, I've watched I've watched Johnny Cochran's closing arguments in the Simpson trial. And I think the first surprise for people is they think closing arguments is like this 5 or 10 minute speech. And those in OJ, those arguments went on for hours. They did

00;15;58;13 - 00;16;10;11
Craig Andrews
multiple attorneys. But the thing that I know, Dustin Johnson Cochran's closing, there were some things that he put in meter and there were some things that he didn't.

00;16;10;13 - 00;16;29;23
Craig Andrews
And I'm not entirely sure why he the things that weren't meter. I figured maybe those were just things he had to introduce into the record, because he was figuring he would have to appeal the case. Oh, but it became clear to me the things that he wanted the jury to remember. He put in the meter. He basically sang to the jury, here we go.

00;16;29;25 - 00;16;54;15
Paul Glover
He he created a song. Yeah. No. Yeah, absolutely. And and that did make it memorable. See the fact that he had to put it in there. You're absolutely correct. He thought I'm going to have to appeal this case. So when it goes up to the appellate court, the specs have to be there. But and by the way, the rest of that would not have any of impact on the appellate court.

00;16;54;18 - 00;16;57;07
Paul Glover
They don't they don't care about your song.

00;16;57;10 - 00;16;58;18
Craig Andrews
Right.

00;16;58;20 - 00;17;19;26
Paul Glover
But the jury does. The jury wants to hear the song, the melody. They want to get caught up in it. And the cadence of his court. He was obviously he was a superb trial lawyer. He was excellent of what he did. But you you've spotted it immediately is that he created a song that told the story, but it blew people.

00;17;20;00 - 00;17;28;04
Paul Glover
It just was fantastic. So I certainly when I went to law school, I never went to class. I went to court.

00;17;28;04 - 00;17;39;15
Paul Glover
Right away I didn't. What if you told me I had to do trust and estates, I'd cut my throat with a rusty spoon. I wanted to be a trial lawyer from the time I decided to go to law school.

00;17;39;17 - 00;17;58;15
Paul Glover
So every opportunity I could cut a class, I went to court and I watched. Because if you got the right, you started to realize who the experts were, and. And you start to pay attention to them. Johnnie Cochran was top notch. Top 10% of lawyers I've ever seen. Client case.

00;17;58;17 - 00;18;10;05
Craig Andrews
Yeah, well, let's let's jump to the full because I'm still curious how you ask your wife, hey, will you be the fool? And she not only did she not divorce you when you were in prison,

00;18;10;05 - 00;18;13;18
Craig Andrews
but she's you're still married, and she apparently likes you.

00;18;13;20 - 00;18;15;05
Paul Glover
She does, she does,

00;18;15;05 - 00;18;24;09
Paul Glover
think about this. I'm doing five and a half years. She lives in Chicago. I'm in southern Illinois, 5.5 hour drive. She came down once a month,

00;18;24;09 - 00;18;35;10
Paul Glover
for five and a half years till I got out. And we would spend a day and a half in the visiting room. And now, the first two years I was incarcerated, I engaged in revenge fantasy.

00;18;35;12 - 00;19;05;29
Paul Glover
I was going to get even with everybody who put me in prison. I had accepted no responsibility or accountability for being in prison. Other people put me there and I was going to get even. But I tell everybody that that if in your life, if you're paying attention, there are epiphanies that occur. And the epiphany for me was at the end of year two of my incarceration, I started to see prisoners who had been there when I arrived, but got out, come back.

00;19;06;01 - 00;19;32;05
Paul Glover
Recidivism in the in the the the federal prison system is 80%, 80% of all people who go to prison or get out and go back to return to prison. Recidivism is that huge. And I realized that if I did not change who I was and how I behaved, I was not only going to lose my family, but I was going to become a career criminal.

00;19;32;08 - 00;19;42;26
Paul Glover
I knew I could feel it. I could see me in these people coming back. So I decided that I was going to have to do the hard thing. I was going to have to transform who I was.

00;19;42;26 - 00;19;47;25
Paul Glover
And I knew I couldn't do that on my own. And obviously, the person who know me the best, who loved me,

00;19;47;25 - 00;19;50;28
Paul Glover
and, and I saw once a month,

00;19;50;28 - 00;19;54;20
Paul Glover
was the person that I was, I was going to enlist to help me.

00;19;54;23 - 00;19;56;09
Paul Glover
And I had read about the,

00;19;56;09 - 00;20;02;14
Paul Glover
the concept in the pool, and I thought, this is it. This is perfect. I need her to be my pool. We're setting in the,

00;20;02;14 - 00;20;12;04
Paul Glover
we're setting in the visiting room 110 degrees. There's 300 other inmates around. And I talked to her about this concept, and I tell her, I want you to become my pool.

00;20;12;07 - 00;20;41;12
Paul Glover
Now, to me, this is an honor, right? This is of honor. And so. So I say I love you, and I know you could do this. I want you to become my pool. And she says, no. And I was like, what do you mean, no? And she goes, look, I love you, but I know you, and I'm not going to drive 5.5 hours to set in this hot, crowded building room to hear you argue with me when I tell you something you don't want to hear.

00;20;41;14 - 00;20;48;17
Paul Glover
And she says, and I've got a lot of stuff to tell you, but I'm not going to do this exercise with you. I was like, what?

00;20;48;17 - 00;21;03;25
Paul Glover
So we reached an agreement that, by the way, she got a she of a steel backbone, right? I mean, she said, no, I'm not going to do it, I don't care. I said, okay, so we reached an agreement the last half hour of our monthly visit.

00;21;03;27 - 00;21;15;12
Paul Glover
She would tell me three things that I needed to change, and the only thing I was, the only thing I could say in response was thank you.

00;21;15;14 - 00;21;32;13
Craig Andrews
That's straight up vestige. When somebody when invested, when somebody makes a recommendation, you know, there's this there's a vestige process. The only answer you can give is thank you. This is not the time to argue, not the time to tell them they're wrong. They don't understand if they only know. Thank you.

00;21;32;15 - 00;21;57;03
Paul Glover
You're spot on. And that was way before I knew this stage, by the way. But I understood I understood this. This was the deal. But she wasn't. She was that was. She wasn't satisfied with that. She said, okay, now I'm going to tell you this stuff. Although then you say, thank you, but when I come back here 30 days from now, you better be able to tell me what you've done, what actions you've taken about those three things.

00;21;57;05 - 00;22;17;19
Paul Glover
So she left. And like I said, this, this process about killing. Seriously, I am combative. I've got an opinion. If someone attacks me by immediate responses to attack back, can't do it right? She leaves, I get up, I change at change clothes and I start walking around the track. Right. I'm burning off this stress.

00;22;17;19 - 00;22;18;27
Paul Glover
But she was absolutely right.

00;22;18;27 - 00;22;45;11
Paul Glover
And I realized this. I realized this is what I have to do. I have to transform. And so I would take those three items and I would have an action plan. I'm an action plan guy, and I'll give you one. I never believed in service. She service to my client was really not service to them. They were only the opportunity for me to make money, but also to do what I really wanted to do perform.

00;22;45;14 - 00;23;00;21
Paul Glover
I was a performer. I am a performer, I got it, I got it, I had an audience and somebody is going to pay me for this. This was like bad testing. So I decided I'd never been about service. It was always all about me. So the first thing that I did, I went to the,

00;23;00;21 - 00;23;07;13
Paul Glover
education department, and I talked to the person in charge of that and said, I want to teach GED.

00;23;07;15 - 00;23;31;00
Paul Glover
And you said, here, you out of your mind. You're an old white guy now. I'm 50 years in prison. He said, this is nothing but young blacks for Saint Louis, who are drug dealers and they're 19, 20 years old. They're not going to want they will not listen to you, I said, that will require to be there. By the way, if you didn't have a high school degree, you had to go to GED class.

00;23;31;02 - 00;23;49;28
Paul Glover
I said, I don't care, I want to do this. So I went in and I started. There were 14 of 14 young blacks and I said, look. And I came with a I came with a deck of cards. I said, look, I'm here because I want to be. You don't want to be. But this is the deal. Anyone who wants to listen to what I have to say,

00;23;49;28 - 00;23;50;25
Paul Glover
such over here.

00;23;50;28 - 00;24;08;27
Paul Glover
The rest of you take cards, go over to the side, play cards. The only thing I'm asking you to do is not interrupt the class. 12 of one went over two or said in there because they're curious, right? I said, look, here's the book. Read it. You're going to have to take the test. I don't want to talk to you about this book.

00;24;09;04 - 00;24;27;21
Paul Glover
I want to talk to you about what you have to do not to come back to person. That's how it started. At the end of three months, I had a group of 14. Wow. And from that point on, I taught GED until I got out. That was my first act of service.

00;24;27;23 - 00;24;36;22
Craig Andrews
That's pretty amazing. What do you think? What caused the change? How did you go from 2 to 14?

00;24;36;25 - 00;25;05;28
Paul Glover
The the two of were listening to me. Pardon me. Start to tell them things about about life that they've never heard before. And they were looking at me, a successful white guy and lawyer. Obviously, some respect goes with that, right? They'd all had lawyers. And second, I'm a story teller and I told I was telling them, I'm going to give you the facts of life that you've never heard before, and we're going to have a discussion about that.

00;25;05;28 - 00;25;28;29
Paul Glover
You don't have to believe me. You can have an opinion that says, no, we'll have a dialog. It's not going to be a monologue. It will be a dialog. But I'm going to tell you things that you need to know so that when you get out, you will be able to change or not, not to come back. And I pointed out to them, I said, do you really want to come back here every 3 or 4 years because you see your friends, they're all coming back.

00;25;29;01 - 00;25;51;13
Paul Glover
I said, that's your life unless you do something about it. Now. And obviously that's a hard core lesson, right? But it was one that rang true. You can't tell people lives and and think you're going to do anything about it, but they recognize the truth. Those two guys did well. The 12 that are sitting over there. But you know, you play a card, but you realize you got to it.

00;25;51;13 - 00;25;55;22
Paul Glover
You're hearing something and suddenly you're paying a little bit of attention, right?

00;25;55;22 - 00;25;57;13
Paul Glover
When no matter what, that guy just say,

00;25;57;13 - 00;26;06;14
Paul Glover
wow them. Slowly they migrated over because they suddenly realized that I was giving them something of value.

00;26;06;16 - 00;26;20;22
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Wow. So that was that was one of the first things your wife said was you need to start serving people. Yeah. And what what are some other things that she told you to do?

00;26;20;25 - 00;26;24;04
Paul Glover
Well, she she was all about, you know, I

00;26;24;04 - 00;26;45;13
Paul Glover
you ego. I had a huge ego. I was a narcissist. Practically. Right. And she says you need you need to stop. She said you need to you need to recognize that what you do and how you do it is not appropriate. And she said, for being a human being, she was like, okay.

00;26;45;21 - 00;26;58;24
Paul Glover
And so she I had to now I had to start keeping a daily journal. And in the journal I had to write down things that I did that were nice.

00;26;58;26 - 00;27;13;10
Paul Glover
Right. Because I was not a nice guy. Oh, what did I tell everyone? You know, you always hear you go into prison and tough and you up. I went into prison, Craig, and it soften me. Wow. I came out a different person. I came out a person with a different perspective about life.

00;27;13;10 - 00;27;16;22
Paul Glover
But I also came out with a different perspective about me.

00;27;16;24 - 00;27;19;15
Paul Glover
And. No, I was not a likable guy.

00;27;19;18 - 00;27;46;28
Craig Andrews
Well, and that's I mean, that's pretty amazing. You know, you said the incarceration rate is 80%. And, you know, obviously 80% of people go into prison and makes things worse. You went into prison and what what would you break that down? I mean, because I would imagine that translates over to business, that, you know, the majority of people are doomed to keep making the same mistakes again and again.

00;27;47;00 - 00;27;47;20
Paul Glover
Oh, yeah.

00;27;47;22 - 00;27;51;29
Craig Andrews
What made the difference for you? Why are you not a career criminal?

00;27;52;01 - 00;28;14;13
Paul Glover
My wife, I mean, in all honesty, it was my wife, my family and the realization though I, she I and again I to say everybody has an epiphany. I believe that the universe does teach us lessons and the same lesson until we learn it. Now, I'm a slow learner. I've got to tell you, I do not learn well or rapidly, but I will learn because

00;28;14;13 - 00;28;26;28
Paul Glover
I'm intelligent enough to recognize that something has to happen or something else will, and that that epiphany of seeing the return was the thing that shocked me.

00;28;26;28 - 00;28;48;08
Paul Glover
I mean, I just it just suddenly was like my eyes opened to what was going to happen to me if I continued to do what I had done and I would. There was no reason for me to change. I knew that when I got out, I could go back to this group and be employed, and there was no you might not be a lawyer, but they were going to make sure.

00;28;48;08 - 00;29;05;00
Paul Glover
Because you know what? I was a stand up guy. I wasn't going to turn anybody in. And in fact, when I got out of prison, probably a couple of three months, I got a call from a person that was a part of this group who said, listen, you're a stand up guy. You're a smart guy. We got a place for you.

00;29;05;02 - 00;29;11;17
Paul Glover
We got a job. And I said, you know, with all due respect, thanks, but no thanks.

00;29;11;17 - 00;29;20;27
Paul Glover
By the way, I was struggling. I mean, you get out. I was a 50 year old ex-con who was trying to create a career from scratch.

00;29;20;27 - 00;29;31;17
Paul Glover
And not not the easiest thing to do, believe me. But I knew that I could not continue doing what I wanted to do unless I wanted to lose my family and be a be a crop.

00;29;31;25 - 00;29;42;03
Paul Glover
It just the realization. It just slapped me upside the head. It really did. It was a shock to me, because like I said, the first two years I was getting even with everybody.

00;29;42;06 - 00;29;46;23
Craig Andrews
Yeah, now I get that. I get that the,

00;29;46;23 - 00;30;11;22
Craig Andrews
there there's so much I want to explore, I think, why don't we focus on this for the next, you know, next couple minutes? Because I think this is the biggest takeaway is how do business owners take this concept of the fall and put in place how, you know, because you coach business, you run across people.

00;30;11;24 - 00;30;14;26
Craig Andrews
How as a business owner, do I take this concept

00;30;14;26 - 00;30;19;10
Craig Andrews
as a of a fool and implement it into my business and into my life?

00;30;19;12 - 00;30;20;02
Paul Glover
Well, first,

00;30;20;02 - 00;30;28;28
Paul Glover
I do, you know, all my business is referral. 80% of the people who are referred to me, that we don't do business together because they won't do the work.

00;30;28;28 - 00;30;31;22
Paul Glover
I can tell you, I love one of my clients who,

00;30;31;22 - 00;30;42;21
Paul Glover
Who? I asked for a, recommendation. His recommendation was Paula's a Sherpa. He will get you to your mountaintop, but he will not carry your pack.

00;30;42;24 - 00;30;46;09
Paul Glover
Yeah, most leaders want me to carry their pack.

00;30;46;09 - 00;30;56;22
Paul Glover
Why? They don't want to carry it themselves first. They don't want to recognize their. Because the mistakes that they made. And when someone starts to point it out,

00;30;56;22 - 00;31;07;03
Paul Glover
they don't like that they live in an echo chamber. One of my biggest chores is when I do become someone's coach is to break their echo chamber.

00;31;07;05 - 00;31;34;05
Paul Glover
The echo chamber is they're surrounded by people who continually tell them how great they are. Look at how successful you are. Look at how successful the company is. They don't hear or see the things they need to change for sustained success. I don't I don't coach for success. I coach for legacy and sustainability. That means you can't keep doing what you're doing and continue to be successful.

00;31;34;05 - 00;31;35;24
Paul Glover
The world doesn't work that way.

00;31;35;24 - 00;31;59;05
Paul Glover
Marshall Goldsmith's book, What Got You Here will not get you there. Absolutely the case. So for leaders who have been successful, the concept they have to deal with is the paradox of success. Their success will lead to their failure. If they don't do something about how they do what they do and who they are, the world has changed.

00;31;59;05 - 00;32;18;12
Paul Glover
Whether we like it or not. The pandemic has changed. People's attitudes about work and leadership, and leaders now need to accept that and change who they are and how they interact with employees, with customers, with their executive teams, all of that.

00;32;18;12 - 00;32;24;27
Paul Glover
And and I find that that leaders who come to me have an to all leaders who seek coaching,

00;32;24;27 - 00;32;27;28
Paul Glover
or they have an itch that needs to be scratched.

00;32;28;01 - 00;32;50;19
Paul Glover
They may not know what it is, but they realize that they need something other than what they have. That exploration is, is the important part of any coaching relationship is let's find out what you want out of this experience. And if it's to be a tell everyone, I will not waste my time,

00;32;50;19 - 00;32;51;04
Paul Glover
doing,

00;32;51;04 - 00;32;53;17
Paul Glover
making you a better speaker.

00;32;53;19 - 00;33;12;11
Paul Glover
That's a skill set. Find a speaking coach. I'm fine with that. It's not that I couldn't do it, but why would we waste my time and your money doing that? Let. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about what your leadership needs to look like, what your legacy needs to look like. And that certainly is a longer perspective. It's a longer view.

00;33;12;14 - 00;33;23;20
Paul Glover
But we start then determining how you have to change to get there. Yeah. You know, it's it's it I don't know whether that is explanatory or not but but

00;33;23;20 - 00;33;29;06
Paul Glover
but most leaders are not capable of doing that.

00;33;29;08 - 00;33;32;07
Craig Andrews
You know, as, as you were talking, I was thinking about,

00;33;32;07 - 00;33;39;13
Craig Andrews
somebody who was kind of the fool in my life here recently, actually, I mentioned him. He was the,

00;33;39;13 - 00;33;51;25
Craig Andrews
his he was the one who grew up in new Jersey. His best friend growing up was the grandson of the head of the new Jersey family. Yeah. And I showed him that picture of me in the wheelchair going to Camp Gladiator.

00;33;51;27 - 00;34;14;22
Craig Andrews
And he just looked at me and said, Craig, what happened to the to the animal in that photo? I'm like, what do you mean? He's like the guy who showed up at Camp Gladiator in a wheelchair and on oxygen. He was an animal. Where's that animal today? What are you doing in your life with that beastly intensity? And it didn't offend me.

00;34;14;24 - 00;34;36;05
Craig Andrews
It was like, oh my goodness, Joe, thank you for saying that. Thank you for having the boldness to say that. Oh, and I think that's what you're talking about is when you when you're coaching someone and what all leaders need is somebody in their life who will unapologetically ask those tough questions.

00;34;36;08 - 00;34;58;11
Paul Glover
Oh my. One of my taglines I've got a couple of first, I'm the no B.S. performance coach, but second, my my my job, my legacy is all about challenging the best to be better. Yeah, but you have to be challenged by somebody who you trust, respect, but also who cares about you. I tell people I care, just not that much.

00;34;58;13 - 00;35;31;22
Paul Glover
I refuse to let you convince me that I need to be kind to you. But we're back to kind of tough. I'm tough about this because I know that people have to do certain things that they don't want to do. And I'm going to tell you what that is. I have a very accentuated bullshit antenna. I know when somebody trying to lay a line on me, because obviously I've got a lot of experience with it, and I'm more than happy to tell you that what you're doing either makes no sense, just makes no sense.

00;35;31;24 - 00;35;34;24
Paul Glover
Right? The way you're behaving makes no sense.

00;35;34;24 - 00;35;40;09
Paul Glover
Now you can continue to do it, but I'm going to tell you what the results are too. And once again,

00;35;40;09 - 00;35;50;29
Paul Glover
people are people are who are open to that, who are open to go through the transformation. I think, you know, we talk about change. Change for leaders is often about transformation.

00;35;51;03 - 00;36;13;28
Paul Glover
You have to change your style. If you're since the pandemic, if you are not in transformation mode, you have a limited life as a leader. Yeah. Emotional intelligence, which used to be a joke, right? If you said that to leaders about emotional intelligence, they'd look at you like you had two heads. Now that's an essential skill set. You may not like it, I don't.

00;36;13;29 - 00;36;15;13
Paul Glover
And by the way, I tell people

00;36;15;13 - 00;36;29;26
Paul Glover
what I'm going to talk to you about or tell you you're not going to like. I don't care if that's what you're looking for, but somebody else. And we're going to have that top conversation and it will be a conversation, but it's also going to be about what the work environment requires.

00;36;29;26 - 00;36;42;01
Paul Glover
Now, now you can either accept that or not, but you're not you're not going to be successful. If you don't. You must change. You must adapt.

00;36;42;04 - 00;36;54;28
Craig Andrews
Wow. Well, obviously for those, you know, for the 20%, they're willing to do the work to carry their own pack up to the top of Everest. You've got something for them.

00;36;54;28 - 00;36;57;06
Craig Andrews
Paul, how did people reach you?

00;36;57;06 - 00;36;59;01
Craig Andrews
What's the best way for people to reach you?

00;36;59;03 - 00;36;59;22
Paul Glover
Two ways.

00;36;59;22 - 00;37;01;08
Paul Glover
Obviously, I've got a,

00;37;01;08 - 00;37;02;13
Paul Glover
a website.

00;37;02;13 - 00;37;08;16
Paul Glover
You can email me at Paul at Paul Glover coaching.com, or you can catch me on,

00;37;08;16 - 00;37;11;02
Paul Glover
on LinkedIn at Paul Glover Coaching.

00;37;11;02 - 00;37;14;23
Paul Glover
I always love to respond to people who've been in your audience,

00;37;14;23 - 00;37;22;14
Paul Glover
that enjoyed what I had to say or didn't enjoy it. I always like the person who's going to convince me I'm wrong.

00;37;22;16 - 00;37;25;03
Paul Glover
Because. Because I'm open to the dialog.

00;37;25;03 - 00;37;26;29
Paul Glover
So no, that's how they can reach me.

00;37;26;29 - 00;37;32;14
Paul Glover
I, I obviously, I'm passionate about what I do, and I'm also passionate about my message.

00;37;32;14 - 00;37;33;06
Paul Glover
Craig,

00;37;33;06 - 00;37;45;28
Paul Glover
it is about it is about recovery from failure and how we all have to understand that's a part of life. You know, we have the yin and the yang symbols.

00;37;46;01 - 00;37;51;20
Paul Glover
To me, that's 50% success, 50% failure. That's the way the board set.

00;37;51;20 - 00;37;57;22
Paul Glover
If you don't like that and want to fight against it, I'm okay with that. Except for the fact you're going to lose.

00;37;57;24 - 00;38;02;17
Craig Andrews
Wow. Well, Paul, this has been absolutely amazing.

00;38;02;17 - 00;38;04;13
Craig Andrews
I do hope people reach out to you.

00;38;04;13 - 00;38;07;00
Craig Andrews
Thanks for sharing your story on leaders and legacies.

00;38;07;02 - 00;38;12;17
Paul Glover
Craig, thank you so much for the opportunity. Much appreciate it.

00;38;12;17 - 00;38;39;11
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Alize for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this

00;38;39;11 - 00;38;41;06
Craig Andrews
episode on social media.

00;38;41;08 - 00;39;04;20
Craig Andrews
Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or posted on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest, tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.

00;39;04;22 - 00;39;12;27
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe your thumbs up! Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.

00;39;12;27 - 00;41;15;00
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Alize for me.com. or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.