Jen Halpern is the founder of Soft Sell Coaching and explores the nuances of effective leadership and sales strategy. Jen shares her transformational journey, from being a driven VP of Sales to embracing a people-first leadership approach. She delves into the importance of trust, self-awareness, and investing in individuals to build high-performing teams. Jen highlights actionable strategies, including consistent one-on-ones, hiring for diversity of strengths, and fostering accountability through coaching.
The discussion also tackles common tensions between sales and marketing teams, emphasizing the need for clear communication and alignment. Jen's personal anecdotes and professional insights illustrate how great leadership transcends ego, focusing instead on empowering teams for sustainable success.
Want to learn more about Jen Halpern's work? Check out her website at https://softsellcoaching.com/.
Connect with Jen on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenhalpern/.
Key Points with Time Stamps
- [00:00:51] Guest Introduction: Jen Halpern, founder of Soft Sell Coaching, is introduced.
- [00:04:10] Leadership Starts with Leaders: Jen discusses how sales leadership directly impacts team performance.
- [00:05:03] Invest in Humans First: Strategies for building trust and consistency within sales teams.
- [00:07:20] Soft Skills are Essential: Jen emphasizes authentic listening, asking meaningful questions, and showing up consistently.
- [00:18:14] Transformative Leadership: Jen recounts a pivotal moment with her daughter that reshaped her leadership style.
- [00:23:00] Ask vs. Tell: The power of asking questions to inspire lasting change in teams.
- [00:24:10] Sales and Marketing Alignment: Addressing miscommunication and fostering collaboration.
- [00:30:00] Measuring Results: Craig shares frustrations over sales team inefficiencies and the need for aligned dashboards.
- [00:32:03] Closing Thoughts: Jen encourages leaders to embrace coaching and self-investment to drive impactful change.
Transcript
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment of my career.
00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;10
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on the show.
00;00;51;10 - 00;00;57;19
Craig Andrews
Today I want to welcome Jen Halpern. She is the founder of Soft Sell Coaching. Jen is,
00;00;57;19 - 00;01;12;26
Craig Andrews
a skilled sales leadership coach with a strong track record of helping software teams grow and improve. The thing that I'm most interested in is the soft skills approach. Everybody hates a sleazy salesperson. And so, Jen,
00;01;12;26 - 00;01;17;10
Craig Andrews
Jen's going to talk to us about how to not be sleazy and still get sales.
00;01;17;13 - 00;01;36;27
Craig Andrews
And she has a method called the trust coaching system. That's an acronym for something which I'm sure we'll find out about soon. And she is. I've gotten to know Jen over the last month or so, and just every conversation with Jen is delightful. I'm sure you will find it as well. Jen. Welcome.
00;01;37;00 - 00;01;40;04
Jen Halpern
Thank you Craig. I'm super excited to be here. Love it.
00;01;40;07 - 00;01;44;02
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So anyway, and I forgot to mention,
00;01;44;02 - 00;01;50;12
Craig Andrews
you're a fellow Texan. I grew up in the northeast, but I've kind of adopted Texas. But did you grow up in Texas?
00;01;50;14 - 00;01;58;05
Jen Halpern
I am a Texas native, San Antonio, and I've been living in Houston. The last guest almost two decades now. Yep. It's in my blood.
00;01;58;07 - 00;02;00;11
Craig Andrews
Wow. Wow.
00;02;00;11 - 00;02;00;28
Craig Andrews
You know,
00;02;00;28 - 00;02;05;13
Craig Andrews
just kind of a quick side note. I was thinking about this this morning for some weird reason.
00;02;05;13 - 00;02;17;22
Craig Andrews
I know somebody posted something to social media about San Antonio. So when I woke up from my coma, I woke up in San Antonio. Coincidentally, I was having dreams in my coma about being on the Riverwalk.
00;02;17;24 - 00;02;40;14
Jen Halpern
Oh, interesting. When I grew up in San Antonio, the Riverwalk was not a place you wanted to frequent. In fact, you intentionally stayed away. It was drug and gang infested. A lot of crime. Since then, I mean, now it's a go to tourist attraction from various price points. Great food, great entertainment, mariachis, excellent Mexican food, all the things.
00;02;40;17 - 00;02;40;24
Jen Halpern
Yeah.
00;02;40;25 - 00;02;49;27
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Yeah. Well, interestingly enough, in my dream, in my coma, when I was on the Riverwalk, I was attending,
00;02;49;27 - 00;02;52;07
Craig Andrews
a dinner cruise on the Riverwalk.
00;02;52;07 - 00;02;55;08
Craig Andrews
And there were a whole bunch of mix ups.
00;02;55;08 - 00;02;58;29
Craig Andrews
The ex-wife of a ex friend,
00;02;58;29 - 00;03;07;19
Craig Andrews
decided that was right for me to marry her. And she was trying to do kind of a reverse proposal, and it didn't go well.
00;03;07;20 - 00;03;12;23
Craig Andrews
She got frustrated, and then we had to get off the boat because it turned out the boat was owned by the cartel.
00;03;12;25 - 00;03;15;04
Jen Halpern
Oh, wow. You want to be careful about that?
00;03;15;06 - 00;03;15;14
Craig Andrews
Yeah.
00;03;15;17 - 00;03;23;15
Jen Halpern
So another that's a podcast for you. The whole the ex wife, I mean, the ex friend, the ex girlfriend, the cartel. That's a great
00;03;23;15 - 00;03;24;14
Jen Halpern
story.
00;03;24;16 - 00;03;25;11
Craig Andrews
So, anyway,
00;03;25;11 - 00;03;32;17
Craig Andrews
but let's let's talk about sales because. Here's the thing. I talked to so many people who,
00;03;32;17 - 00;03;48;18
Craig Andrews
they just dread it. They hire salespeople, they're disappointed in their performance, and they're disappointed in their methods. And, you know, some of it is that some people just walk away feeling dirty and, and the way they approach sales or they feel disappointed.
00;03;48;19 - 00;04;01;17
Craig Andrews
I meet very, very few people that feel really good about their sales team, although I'm at one who say it's the best sales team in the industry, he should actually feel more disappointed than he did.
00;04;01;17 - 00;04;05;13
Craig Andrews
But generally I run across very few people that,
00;04;05;13 - 00;04;10;17
Craig Andrews
feel in great about their sales team. Why is that?
00;04;10;19 - 00;04;40;02
Jen Halpern
That's a powerful question in my mind. Craig. It starts and stops with leader with the sales leader. It's that simple. And I consult some of my clients. They start out with why aren't my sellers aligning or doing what I tell them to do and how I tell them to do it? Because that's the disconnect versus starting with what is it that you want to accomplish being a sales rep here at this company, and how can I help you get there?
00;04;40;05 - 00;05;03;07
Jen Halpern
It's a whole different mentality, and it includes tactical soft skills that are consistent and repeatable that so many clients, when they come to me, they are not doing this and stop me, Craig, because I'll go on a tangent here. It's just not me any time. But I'll give you a concrete example. So many sales leaders forget that their people are number one, period.
00;05;03;07 - 00;05;12;14
Jen Halpern
It's not tools and process and all the and account strategy and deal strategy. It's investing in your humans because they are the ones that are driving the numbers.
00;05;13;04 - 00;05;41;05
Jen Halpern
So how do you consistently invest in your humans. You can start with having a consistent repeatable one on one with the same or similar agenda in which you're coaching them on their will and their skill. That's a different conversation than the deal strategy, the account strategy and quota attainment. It's very human. Your will and your skill. And when sellers believe that their leaders invest in them, they perform better.
00;05;41;07 - 00;05;44;08
Jen Halpern
It's that simple. I'll pause there.
00;05;44;11 - 00;05;57;14
Craig Andrews
Wow. Well, when you're digging into them, hearing you talk about basically the the motivation, what what motivates these guys, what gets them out of bed in the morning. And,
00;05;57;14 - 00;06;04;25
Craig Andrews
and again, I have a prototype in my head. And I know this is not the majority, you know.
00;06;04;25 - 00;06;12;07
Craig Andrews
But let me not quantify it, but this isn't everybody in the sales community, but I think of,
00;06;12;07 - 00;06;16;08
Craig Andrews
people that they're like, remind me of some of the pilots I have known.
00;06;16;08 - 00;06;16;20
Craig Andrews
They,
00;06;16;20 - 00;06;19;05
Craig Andrews
they have just these massive egos,
00;06;19;05 - 00;06;23;15
Craig Andrews
and they're completely unteachable. And,
00;06;23;15 - 00;06;28;12
Craig Andrews
and ironically, many of them have a few things they should learn, but yet they're unteachable.
00;06;28;12 - 00;06;45;09
Craig Andrews
I may have a skewed perspective on this, but what you're talking about is getting into the intrinsic motivation. What? Let's start with exceptional salespeople. People that are just, you know, God put them on this earth to sell.
00;06;45;12 - 00;06;48;14
Craig Andrews
What is it that gets them out of bed in the morning?
00;06;48;16 - 00;07;19;28
Jen Halpern
So let's take a word. Take away the word sales because it still today like you said people sometimes it ruffles people's feathers. And let's replace it with sales or serve or help or advise. It's the same thing. Sales is just a word that we as humans have decided to attach some kind of meaning to it. The stellar sales reps that I know that I have hired and trained and get to coach are the ones that recognize the importance of the relationship.
00;07;20;04 - 00;07;37;02
Jen Halpern
And it's it's not that's not people pleasing. It's understanding who is your prospect, your client, your customer. How do you get to know them? You invest the time and you ask questions. Unless you're in a super high volume, fast paced, transactional sale.
00;07;37;02 - 00;07;42;28
Jen Halpern
It's the awareness which you talked about. Ego. If the ego is so big, there's no room for awareness.
00;07;43;00 - 00;08;14;24
Jen Halpern
That's not my client. There has to be a sense of awareness. And that stellar salesperson recognizes the value of the soft skills. Authentic listening asking productive meaningful questions. Being able to have the confidence to pause and set expectations and interrupt and clarify it's I believe that that's table stakes. And that also builds trust between the sales rep and the prospect or customer client.
00;08;14;26 - 00;08;26;23
Jen Halpern
And it doesn't happen overnight. It's how are you showing up and how are you showing up consistently? That's external. There's also internal. How does that salesperson connect with and relate to their leaders to their,
00;08;26;23 - 00;08;32;23
Jen Halpern
adjacent support teams? Like customer success, like all the things
00;08;32;23 - 00;08;38;00
Jen Halpern
tech support, you name it. Software engineers speaking specifically in the SAS market.
00;08;38;03 - 00;08;48;14
Jen Halpern
So it's really it's a human being that gets what it means to be a human being and that people value being seen and heard. I'll pause there. I love that topic. It's a great question.
00;08;48;16 - 00;08;55;28
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And I, I do think about, you know, I have worked with some exceptional salespeople.
00;08;55;28 - 00;09;13;12
Craig Andrews
The. I one of the things I've seen in them, I've seen a kind of a, a paradox of being extremely driven, but very patient and,
00;09;13;12 - 00;09;14;19
Craig Andrews
you know, careful.
00;09;14;19 - 00;09;20;10
Craig Andrews
I'll give an example from, you know, when I used to do product marketing in the semiconductor world.
00;09;20;12 - 00;09;29;21
Craig Andrews
The sales team would come back and they keep telling us, hey, the customers are asking for this. They're asking for this or asking for this. You know, from the product marketing side.
00;09;29;21 - 00;09;34;08
Craig Andrews
We honestly, we kind of ignored them. And then eventually, you know, I,
00;09;34;08 - 00;09;43;25
Craig Andrews
one of us often, may I go on the road and hear it directly from the customers, and I come back to the factory and say, I have heard from the customers, and they said, they need this.
00;09;43;27 - 00;09;57;17
Craig Andrews
And the smart sales guys would sit back and say, oh, wow, Craig, you really did sort that out, you know? And when I reflected back, I was like, oh, wait a minute. They've been telling me that for six months. I just didn't listen to them.
00;09;57;20 - 00;10;00;03
Jen Halpern
Trusting.
00;10;00;05 - 00;10;08;23
Craig Andrews
But they had that ego in check that they were more interested in getting what they needed for their customer than getting credit for it.
00;10;08;25 - 00;10;33;19
Jen Halpern
That that is awareness. That's a grounded, aware salesperson. And like you mentioned, it's an interesting paradox. The successful ones, they're also often coin operated, but not only coin operated, because they get the fact that if I get this customer and we maintain and we grow together, I can continue to provide them, help or serve them or solve their problems.
00;10;33;25 - 00;11;03;03
Jen Halpern
And then I can ask them for specific referrals with a whole different process, but only if you've earned their trust. So yeah, that's a great example. All the ego in the room. Boy, those are the ones that probably last 18 months and do a lot of company hopping. Right. Because they're. I would I would doubt they are consistent quota hitters, which is even harder to do today because there's different trends that are happening.
00;11;03;03 - 00;11;04;07
Jen Halpern
Yeah.
00;11;04;09 - 00;11;06;29
Craig Andrews
So if I may
00;11;06;29 - 00;11;20;10
Craig Andrews
owner or CEO and I don't have a big sales team and I'm hiring. I mean these guys are going to come in. They're going to tell me they you know, they you know they're made you know, they have magic in their lips and
00;11;20;10 - 00;11;25;09
Craig Andrews
how do I identify these people to make sure I never hire these.
00;11;25;11 - 00;11;36;03
Jen Halpern
I love that question. I believe in a very thorough, comprehensive hiring or interviewing and hiring process. And I'll give you a couple of examples.
00;11;36;03 - 00;11;53;22
Jen Halpern
In my mind, whenever a sales rep is engaging with a customer, client or prospect, that is a form of presenting and it's still a back and forth conversation. But I mean, having your ducks in a row, I mean, being confident, I mean being prepared and engaging.
00;11;53;25 - 00;12;17;23
Jen Halpern
What's in it for the person I'm talking to versus my quota? So, for example, as part of an interviewing process, it's also a vetting or a screening process. I would ask my candidates to come prepared, whether it's in-person or virtual, and give me an eight minute presentation so that I can see how do they show up in a presentation mode.
00;12;17;26 - 00;12;42;17
Jen Halpern
And it could be from making salsa to making beer, to correlating exercise and attaining quota, whatever they want to step into that allows them to shine. And I'm looking for very specific things when they're presenting, even as simple as are they following directions? Do they come in and give me a 22 minute presentation, because I'll stop them at minute 11 and say, do you remember what the directions were?
00;12;42;17 - 00;12;44;24
Jen Halpern
This was an eight minute whatever.
00;12;44;24 - 00;13;04;00
Jen Halpern
When I say it's also a vetting process, I was constantly surprised by how many people would say, oh, you want me to present as part of the interviewing? No. Thank you. Well, I want to know that upfront before I hire you and then expect you to present to me what we do and all the things.
00;13;04;03 - 00;13;17;02
Jen Halpern
Another quick takeaway in terms of the interviewing process is ask your candidates to send you a short email describing what the product or services that the company does. And
00;13;17;02 - 00;13;27;19
Jen Halpern
what is a short email. Is that two sentences or is it five paragraphs? And I leave it up to them because that's an opportunity for them to be creative. And I'm also looking for what is their voice say?
00;13;27;21 - 00;13;42;23
Jen Halpern
Can they write. Do they open with hey bro. Right. Like what level of polish exists. And then also part of the hiring or interviewing process is how to determine if someone is coachable. And that involves
00;13;42;23 - 00;13;49;28
Jen Halpern
role play on the spot. So this is an individual that's got to be willing to step in. Got some confidence and some insecurity.
00;13;50;00 - 00;14;03;05
Jen Halpern
Are they willing to do the things that is likely an a player a candidate, or at least a, B minus or B plus that can be coached to an A player? Yeah. Back to you. Yeah.
00;14;03;08 - 00;14;14;19
Craig Andrews
Well, and I'm thinking of somebody specifically that could have a much, much higher closing rate if they would take a little bit coaching.
00;14;14;21 - 00;14;20;25
Jen Halpern
If they would take you just nailed it. If they would take a little bit of coaching and it's not a one hit wonder, it's
00;14;20;25 - 00;14;25;20
Jen Halpern
you know in the world of sales coaching and sales training I've got
00;14;25;20 - 00;14;34;26
Jen Halpern
colleagues who they show up, they do a, a one day thingy once a quarter and then they're gone. Where's the follow up and the reinforcement and the consistency?
00;14;34;26 - 00;14;45;28
Jen Halpern
Otherwise it's it's it's a waste of time and money. So to take that little bit of coaching and then implement it to see results, you got to do the work.
00;14;46;01 - 00;14;46;09
Craig Andrews
Well,
00;14;46;09 - 00;15;03;06
Craig Andrews
one of the things I like to say is Michael Jordan didn't have a single coach. He had a team of coach. Yeah. Yeah. You know, one of the best athletes in my lifetime, certainly with a massive ego. But the ego wasn't so big that he locked the coaches out of his life.
00;15;03;08 - 00;15;04;21
Jen Halpern
I love that did you see,
00;15;04;21 - 00;15;08;26
Jen Halpern
was it a Netflix docu series? Er, it was it not the movie? Er, but,
00;15;08;26 - 00;15;16;05
Jen Halpern
there was a a documentary about Jordan. I highly recommend it. It's like six episodes and it goes deep. Yeah.
00;15;16;07 - 00;15;36;19
Craig Andrews
I may have seen that. And I remember, I don't know if it was that. It was some something I saw when he was in minor league baseball. They were talking to his batting coach, and his batting coach said, yeah. After a game, the team would go out for beers. Jordan was in the batting cage. He was in the batting cage.
00;15;36;19 - 00;15;53;01
Craig Andrews
And he said if he hadn't gone back to the NBA, he would have been in the major leagues within a year or two. Wow. You know, and so it's that work ethic and but he knew he needed to be better.
00;15;53;03 - 00;16;16;12
Jen Halpern
Two words come to mind when you share that story. And I hear that story and it's practice discipline practice discipline practice discipline. That's it. It's effortful. It's not effortless. Right. It's easy to say it's got to put in the effort to do the practice and the discipline. Yeah, that would have been a hoot. I think it would have been the tallest baseball player ever.
00;16;16;14 - 00;16;40;26
Craig Andrews
Yeah. But the you know, I think when you're when you're looking at your sales team and you're interviewing, if you have somebody that won't take coaching, I think it's real simple. If Michael Jordan saw the need for coaching, so should you. So should make there's nobody on this planet that won't benefit from a coach. And they think they're too good for coaching.
00;16;41;03 - 00;16;43;05
Craig Andrews
They're probably the wrong person.
00;16;43;07 - 00;17;03;17
Jen Halpern
I completely agree. I invest in a business coach and sometimes a spiritual coach and on occasion a nutrition coach. When my waste, you know, when things when I start gaining weight. But I agree, otherwise how can I really have street cred and authenticity with my clients and I'm coming in to coach them up if I also don't invest.
00;17;03;18 - 00;17;07;15
Jen Halpern
I agree with you 100% correct? Yeah.
00;17;07;17 - 00;17;31;29
Craig Andrews
So now you told me a story about how, we're going to pivot a little bit because, again, sales is such a driven field. And, and business owners, I mean they're not mostly are not laggards. I know I'm a little messy. The guy barely works and he makes a decent living. I'm like,
00;17;31;29 - 00;17;36;03
Craig Andrews
you suck. But you know, in general, a lot of business owners
00;17;36;03 - 00;17;41;07
Craig Andrews
are, you know, kind of driven individuals and salespeople are driven individuals.
00;17;41;10 - 00;17;41;27
Craig Andrews
And,
00;17;41;27 - 00;17;47;13
Craig Andrews
and your daughter confronted you about that one day. Oh.
00;17;47;15 - 00;17;55;10
Jen Halpern
So good memory. I call that a hug and a punch moment and say it again. A hug and a punch moment.
00;17;55;10 - 00;18;14;24
Jen Halpern
So context. I was VP of sales for SAS, a SAS company, and was driving at the time, about an hour and ten minutes each way, and that was when there was no traffic, and I had no idea the extent of which I was showing up when I got home, such that one day in the kitchen.
00;18;14;26 - 00;18;19;05
Jen Halpern
My daughter Jordan, I think she was 14 at the time.
00;18;19;05 - 00;18;32;28
Jen Halpern
She she asked me out of the blue. She said, mama, why do you come home so angry every night? And I for me, that was that was the hug and punch moment, because it came from love. But,
00;18;32;28 - 00;18;35;24
Jen Halpern
it was a punch in the gut because I had no idea.
00;18;35;27 - 00;18;36;06
Jen Halpern
Yeah.
00;18;36;06 - 00;19;00;20
Jen Halpern
What does that mean? How am I showing up at work such that I'm coming home and I'm showing up differently, and it it really led me down a path of transformative leadership where I got to look inward as well as look outward and learn new skills and change my approach. For example, when I was, whenever I was in the hiring role, I sought out many mes.
00;19;00;22 - 00;19;15;21
Jen Halpern
I believe that's a mistake. I believe you want to find people that are the young to your yet yang, yin and yang, right? So that was a very transformative moment, even such that I left corporate America after reflection. And that is what led to soft sell coaching.
00;19;15;24 - 00;19;31;07
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Wow. So. You know, I think when you were talking. I'll tell you where my mind went. You're going to think I'm nuts here, but I started thinking about marksmanship.
00;19;31;07 - 00;19;41;17
Craig Andrews
You know, so I was in the Marines and they taught me how to shoot and, the, you know, the challenge of marksmanship is for you to have, you know,
00;19;41;17 - 00;19;42;09
Craig Andrews
I was in the Marines.
00;19;42;09 - 00;20;08;21
Craig Andrews
We were learning to shoot, not to go to the Olympics. We were learning to shoot bad guys. And, and the key is the well-aimed shot is far better than the rapid shot. So when you see these movies of just spraying bullets all over the place, that's a great way to waste bullets. And bullets are heavy, and you don't want to carry those in the combat.
00;20;08;23 - 00;20;12;16
Craig Andrews
And so it's really about having breathing control. It's about,
00;20;12;16 - 00;20;14;24
Craig Andrews
a lot of factors,
00;20;14;24 - 00;20;27;07
Craig Andrews
including a weird factor that I use. I can't remember if I mention in my book, you don't aim at the target, you don't focus on the target. You focus on the front sight posture. You don't focus on the outcome. You focus on something else.
00;20;27;07 - 00;20;47;19
Craig Andrews
If you want to be the best shooter in the world, or amongst the best. And when you're talking about that, I just couldn't help but wonder if if you're in that mood where you're coming home angry every night. I can't imagine that that's not showing up somewhere in your sales and hurting your numbers.
00;20;47;21 - 00;20;51;16
Jen Halpern
Oh. Listen, if I was at,
00;20;51;16 - 00;21;00;12
Jen Halpern
Well, I actually was able to walk out at a very good at a fair, fairly good place. We were about 82, or maybe it was 88% of our number.
00;21;02;28 - 00;21;12;24
Jen Halpern
When I left, I asked my sales team for feedback of how would they describe me as their leader. And I got some very positive feedback and some,
00;21;12;24 - 00;21;19;11
Jen Halpern
not so positive feedback. For example, a short temper, which I didn't realize that I would come across as,
00;21;19;11 - 00;21;40;07
Jen Halpern
impatient or curt and as a human. There's a time and place for that, as long as there is awareness to then pause and repair versus just impatient, or then leading into admonishment and telling versus asking and forgetting to engage and invest in your people.
00;21;40;10 - 00;22;00;02
Jen Halpern
So that entire experience, it all started with my daughter basically calling me forth and me having a productive exit with my then CEO and getting powerful feedback, feedback as a gift, positive and negative areas of opportunity from my team was also very powerful. Yeah, I agree.
00;22;00;04 - 00;22;01;04
Craig Andrews
When you said
00;22;01;04 - 00;22;21;02
Craig Andrews
asking instead telling I just want to drill in on that. You know, when I think about that, that's that's aiming that's focusing on the front sight pose versus focusing on the target. You know, if you want. And because when you wouldn't tell people you're like, oh, I know exactly what's wrong with you lesson and I'll tell you and you can get better.
00;22;21;04 - 00;22;41;18
Craig Andrews
And I've learned, I've learned the hard way that the fastest way to change is, again, that's that slow breathing and asking them questions, because when they come to the answer themselves, that's a that becomes a deeply held belief.
00;22;41;21 - 00;23;09;16
Jen Halpern
Bingo. And adult learning theory tells us that when you come to the opportunity of improvement that you want to work on all on your own, you've got a much greater chance of achieving that skill and improving in that skill. That's I believe that's a fundamental difference in sales leaders. Everywhere is like, if you just go in the CRM and you just go here and you click on this tab and you do that, you're going to pull it up, run the report to the dashboard, go to the client prospect.
00;23;09;16 - 00;23;15;28
Jen Halpern
Just say this and do that. That is a complete disservice to coaching and elevating and
00;23;15;28 - 00;23;33;16
Jen Halpern
leading your sales team. Yeah, it's asking versus telling. Maybe 80% of the time there's a time and place where when you're the leader, this is our charter, this is our number. This is our process, right? There's a time and place for telling, but most of it gets to be asking.
00;23;33;18 - 00;23;35;24
Jen Halpern
That's the investment in your people.
00;23;35;27 - 00;23;37;05
Craig Andrews
Yeah.
00;23;37;07 - 00;23;44;27
Jen Halpern
And thank you for your service, by the way. Thank you for reminding us that you are a marine. I appreciate that it is Veterans Day. Thank you.
00;23;44;29 - 00;23;46;19
Craig Andrews
All right. Well, thanks.
00;23;46;19 - 00;23;49;05
Craig Andrews
So there's one thing that I want to,
00;23;49;05 - 00;24;07;18
Craig Andrews
before we wrap up, I always have to ask great salespeople all this because I'm a marketer, and sales and marketing can be like cats and dogs. And so my question to you is, why is that? Why does sales and marketing fight so much?
00;24;07;18 - 00;24;10;19
Craig Andrews
And how can we fix that dysfunction?
00;24;10;21 - 00;24;32;11
Jen Halpern
So there's a couple things. And the one word that comes up that's in my mind right now is communication. And that's the overarching theme. So you've got sales and you've got marketing. When did they sit down and discuss what is a lead, how to define and align on what is a lead, what is a suspect, what is a prospect?
00;24;32;15 - 00;24;56;04
Jen Halpern
What is a lead. And that is such a mess. I see client after client after client, which easily leads to well, if marketing stop giving us crap leads. Well, if the salespeople would pick up, you know, take action, activity and follow up. But it has to start with acknowledging there's going to be a healthy tension, and then they've got to have consistent, repeatable communication so that they're you minimize surprise.
00;24;56;06 - 00;25;18;05
Jen Halpern
And it's it's ongoing and it's not. Well, I dumped in 20,000 leads from various lists that I built that I bought. Oh it's got to be alignment on the strategy, alignment on the action, the execution. And that's just as I say, it's communication. It's not effortless. It's arduous. It can be. But you've got to align on what is a lead.
00;25;18;12 - 00;25;23;21
Jen Halpern
Right. And then working backwards to achieve the common goals. That would be my.
00;25;23;23 - 00;25;49;12
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And one of the things I've been communicating more aggressively is you know, we do inbound lead generation. We don't you know, the way we build list is opt in lists okay. And and I tell them straight up, 10% of these leads are going to be crap. We can't change that. Sorry. That's just the way it is. We have weird people fill out lead forms and you know, sorry.
00;25;49;13 - 00;25;53;19
Craig Andrews
Wish I could change it. Can't. Let's just accept that.
00;25;53;19 - 00;25;57;07
Craig Andrews
But the the thing that really,
00;25;57;07 - 00;26;02;06
Craig Andrews
bugs me. And I'm thinking of one example where the client that did,
00;26;02;06 - 00;26;13;23
Craig Andrews
they manage water for corporate campuses. And one of the leads that we got in was the head of operations for SeaTac airport.
00;26;13;23 - 00;26;17;06
Craig Andrews
And he had a $30 million budget.
00;26;17;08 - 00;26;34;12
Craig Andrews
The dude never got called. He never got to follow up. And they were sitting there like, well the leads are crap. I'm like, this is the head of operations for SeaTac airport. He has a $30 million budget. What about him? Looks like a bad lead.
00;26;34;15 - 00;26;36;02
Jen Halpern
Yeah.
00;26;36;04 - 00;26;53;06
Craig Andrews
It it's it's infuriating. As a marketer, I'm like, guys, we worked hard to design messaging and a process to get you this lead. And it's a valuable lead. Why don't you call them.
00;26;53;08 - 00;26;59;03
Jen Halpern
Did you get any responses. Why didn't why wasn't it called. Why wasn't it vetted. What happened.
00;26;59;05 - 00;27;00;04
Craig Andrews
Blah blah blah blah.
00;27;00;12 - 00;27;27;18
Jen Halpern
Yeah yeah that's a shame. And that's not okay. That needs to be. That's part of the consistent, you know, you're having depending on the lead flow and the size of the the all the things, all the variables, I would think that heads of sales and heads of marketing and the, the next levels are communicating at least once a week in a consistent, repeatable way with aligned dashboards where they can look at the data and have those conversations and flag those things.
00;27;27;21 - 00;27;34;05
Jen Halpern
But but all the parties have to get to be adults. That's the I guess that's step one.
00;27;34;08 - 00;27;44;16
Craig Andrews
Well, and I think of another example that, you know, I mentioned them earlier, the it was a client we took on and when we took them on their closing rate was between 30 and 33%.
00;27;44;16 - 00;27;54;28
Craig Andrews
And I started noticing something in the numbers. And we didn't quite have the dashboards to tell the story. But I remember sitting down with GM and said I think your closing rate's dropping.
00;27;55;01 - 00;27;58;14
Craig Andrews
It's like oh no. You know yeah that's all good. And
00;27;58;14 - 00;28;07;19
Craig Andrews
and then you know I was able to kind of crunch the numbers and sure enough, the closing rate to drop down to the mid 20s. And I mentioned he was like, oh, well, you know,
00;28;07;19 - 00;28;11;17
Craig Andrews
we got the best sales team in the industry. I can't tell you the number of times I heard that.
00;28;11;20 - 00;28;23;02
Craig Andrews
And and then it kept dropping and I and finally we made a dashboard where they could look at real time. We actually had a dashboard form where they could look at their last,
00;28;23;02 - 00;28;29;29
Craig Andrews
last 12 week, week by week closing rate and compare it against historical.
00;28;29;29 - 00;28;34;21
Craig Andrews
And so we got to the point, because they had long sales cycles, most of our clients do,
00;28;34;21 - 00;28;39;08
Craig Andrews
that you know, you don't want to wait 60 or 90 days to figure out you had a problem.
00;28;39;08 - 00;28;52;24
Craig Andrews
We made a dashboard to say, hey, storms brewing, you got a problem coming up. You're going not you're not going to hit your numbers. And I thought that that may motivate things. The closing rate dropped down in the teens.
00;28;52;26 - 00;28;54;13
Jen Halpern
Wow. Interesting.
00;28;54;13 - 00;29;12;14
Craig Andrews
It went eventually to single digits. Their closing rate eventually dropped to single digits. And the leads that were coming in filled out a three page web form. This wasn't somebody it just you know this took devotion. And it's as a marketer that's frustrating.
00;29;12;14 - 00;29;20;14
Craig Andrews
And and that's at least from the marketing side that some of the tension like, hey guys, we're working our butts off for you.
00;29;20;16 - 00;29;23;12
Craig Andrews
Why aren't you closing these leads?
00;29;23;14 - 00;29;48;11
Jen Halpern
That's an opportunity in my mind to ask some permission to ask some very powerful questions, starting with the GM, for example, what is your resistance to acknowledging the numbers in front of you? Is this a lifestyle business, or are you okay with you could be shut, your doors could be closing in six months if you continue down this, you know, based on cash positive, all the variables.
00;29;48;13 - 00;30;00;26
Jen Halpern
But what's what's going on here? I'm feeling like you're I'm not being heard and really drill down. And he could just be it's ego. But that's an opportunity to ask some really hard questions.
00;30;00;28 - 00;30;22;00
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well and the reality is sales and marketing need to work together and I, I unfortunately on a couple of occasions recommend replacing the sales team with the fax machine. Back in the days of fax machines, but that was that wasn't the right thing to do, but it was came out of a frustration.
00;30;22;08 - 00;30;26;03
Jen Halpern
And this a lesson learned moment, right, a growth moment. Yep.
00;30;26;05 - 00;30;37;17
Craig Andrews
But I think, at least for me, where I've gotten to the point is recognizing their unique skills and salespeople that I don't have.
00;30;37;17 - 00;30;46;26
Craig Andrews
And it hit me one morning, I was like, well, I was in the shower. I was I was just thinking about this. And I was like, you know, when I'm in the shower, I'm thinking about what I'm going to do today.
00;30;46;26 - 00;31;09;13
Craig Andrews
I'm thinking about the projects that I'm going to be working on. You know, the systems that we're going to be building. It hit me. I was like, I think great salespeople, when they're in the shower, they're thinking about who they're going to be talking to that day. And it's different skills and different wiring. And I think there has to be a mutual respect for what each brings to the table.
00;31;09;15 - 00;31;36;07
Jen Halpern
I love that that's that the yin and yang right. That acknowledge that there will be healthy tension. There will be tension. But it's on us as adults to keep it a healthy tension where we're communicating and collaborating. Yeah. And showing up, respecting what each other does, what the teams are doing. There's got to be that communication and that clarity, that alignment on what is a lead and then what is the process and the handoff and all the things.
00;31;36;07 - 00;31;43;00
Jen Halpern
Yep. Wow. That's good. Great recognition. You've got the awareness. Oh yeah.
00;31;43;02 - 00;32;03;13
Craig Andrews
Well I've stepped on the bike a few times. But anyway Jen this has been so great I, I love your approach. It's I think there's a lot of people that want to take the sales as sales. They probably been hiring the wrong people. Maybe they have the wrong team in place, or maybe they have much of the right team that just needs some coaching.
00;32;03;16 - 00;32;05;06
Craig Andrews
How can they reach you?
00;32;05;08 - 00;32;26;17
Jen Halpern
A couple things. So I'm on LinkedIn all the time. So feel free to DM me on LinkedIn and feel free to visit my website. I've got a very short contact me form. And also whether you call it old school or not, I've got my cell phone on my LinkedIn profile, so pick up the phone call or text and let's have a conversation to see if for a match.
00;32;26;19 - 00;32;27;19
Jen Halpern
Yeah.
00;32;27;21 - 00;32;30;27
Craig Andrews
Well that's awesome. Well, thanks for coming on Layers and Legacies.
00;32;30;29 - 00;32;37;00
Jen Halpern
Thank you for having me. Craig, are you going to tell us about your cufflinks first?
00;32;37;02 - 00;32;41;28
Craig Andrews
The my wife gave me these cufflinks. There are Superman cufflinks.
00;32;41;28 - 00;32;44;16
Craig Andrews
She gave them to me before I got sick.
00;32;44;16 - 00;32;46;16
Craig Andrews
But they've become my favorite cufflinks,
00;32;46;16 - 00;32;52;12
Craig Andrews
since getting out of the hospital and just having the learn how to walk again, learn how to do a lot of things again. And they,
00;32;52;12 - 00;32;54;06
Craig Andrews
they kind of keep me going.
00;32;54;08 - 00;32;57;11
Jen Halpern
That's your superpower. Your Superman cufflinks, I love it.
00;32;57;13 - 00;32;57;28
Craig Andrews
Yeah.
00;32;58;06 - 00;32;59;23
Jen Halpern
Thanks for having me.
00;32;59;25 - 00;33;02;24
Craig Andrews
Absolutely.
00;33;02;24 - 00;33;29;18
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Alize for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this
00;33;29;18 - 00;33;31;13
Craig Andrews
episode on social media.
00;33;31;15 - 00;33;54;25
Craig Andrews
Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or posted on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest, tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.
00;33;54;27 - 00;34;03;04
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe your thumbs up! Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.
00;34;03;04 - 00;36;05;09
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Alize for me.com. or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
