Jack Cohen, CEO of Dark Knight Ventures, joins Craig Andrews to explore the leadership tools that shaped his 40+ year career in commercial real estate and finance. In this episode, Jack breaks down the principles from his book, The Freedom Frameworks, revealing how practical tools—not empty platitudes—help leaders accelerate growth and stay grounded.

Jack shares his philosophy: great leaders acquire skills, accumulate experiences, and develop strong relationships. He unpacks how curiosity fuels those pillars and discusses how “red shirt moments”—unique personal insights—help leaders stand out and build trust.

Jack also speaks candidly about burnout, recovery strategies, and why high-impact leadership demands more than just hustle—it requires deliberate self-renewal. He explains how his aviation hobby and martial arts discipline help him stay sharp and energized. The conversation wraps with actionable frameworks that listeners can immediately use to lead better, think clearer, and create more value.

Want to learn more about Jack Cohen's work? Check out their website at https://darkknightventures.net/.

Connect with Jack Cohen on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/jack-m-cohen-9543269/.

Key Points with Timestamps

• 00:01:09 – Jack Cohen introduction and background in real estate and finance
• 00:01:25 – Why Jack wrote The Freedom Frameworks
• 00:02:48 – How lifelong curiosity shaped Jack’s leadership
• 00:03:21 – The three keys to leadership success: skills, experience, relationships
• 00:05:29 – Being curious about people builds deeper trust
• 00:07:08 – Leaders must show interest to build strong relationships
• 00:07:56 – The “red shirt” concept: how to stand out and connect
• 00:11:11 – Jack’s insights on the future of commercial real estate
• 00:15:05 – Why office vacancies are about more than just remote work
• 00:20:46 – Inside The Freedom Frameworks: practical tools for growth
• 00:24:12 – The importance of self-sufficiency and internal freedom
• 00:25:52 – How recovery strategies beat burnout and increase output
• 00:27:18 – Leaders need rituals that recharge their mental bandwidth
• 00:28:03 – Why skills outside your career can fuel your leadership
• 00:30:10 – Where to get The Freedom Frameworks
• 00:30:43 – How to connect with Jack Cohen directly

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment of my career.

00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;10
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on the show.

00;00;51;10 - 00;01;09;15
Craig Andrews
Today I want to welcome Jack Cohen. He is the founder and CEO of Dark Knight Ventures. Jack helps executives and entrepreneurs accelerate growth through strategic consulting investing investment. With over 40 years of experience in commercial, real estate and finance.

00;01;09;15 - 00;01;25;09
Craig Andrews
Jack has guided countless businesses toward success. More importantly, he's taken some of those nuggets, and he's put it in a book called The Freedom Frameworks, which gives over 60 practical business frameworks for career success.

00;01;25;11 - 00;01;34;04
Craig Andrews
They use this in his own decision making. Jack and I have been chatting over the last few minutes and I am looking forward to this conversation. Jack, welcome.

00;01;34;06 - 00;01;36;17
Jack Cohen
Greg. Thank you. I'm excited to be here and

00;01;36;17 - 00;01;39;07
Jack Cohen
excited to continue our conversation for everyone

00;01;39;07 - 00;01;41;03
Jack Cohen
to kind of listen into.

00;01;41;05 - 00;01;42;25
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So,

00;01;42;25 - 00;01;44;25
Craig Andrews
the,

00;01;44;25 - 00;01;52;09
Craig Andrews
you know, we were we were chatting and you said something about Curious George.

00;01;52;09 - 00;01;53;12
Craig Andrews
First off there,

00;01;53;12 - 00;01;57;26
Craig Andrews
I don't know, does the the kids today know who's curious George's.

00;01;57;29 - 00;01;59;27
Jack Cohen
I you know, I'm blessed that in,

00;01;59;27 - 00;02;00;17
Jack Cohen
in a,

00;02;00;17 - 00;02;15;10
Jack Cohen
last year in a three and a half month period, I got three grandchildren. So I have my, my, my three of my four children had babies three and a half months apart. And so I got all my curious George books ready to go.

00;02;15;10 - 00;02;16;02
Jack Cohen
And so,

00;02;16;02 - 00;02;21;11
Jack Cohen
whether they like it or not, my grandchildren are going to learn about Curious George.

00;02;21;13 - 00;02;24;26
Craig Andrews
Well, who was he and how did he. Influential.

00;02;24;28 - 00;02;25;15
Jack Cohen
So,

00;02;25;15 - 00;02;48;24
Jack Cohen
so Curious George, was a little monkey. And in a zoo. And I forgot the zookeepers name. And the series of books were always about George, curious George, the the monkey that was always getting in trouble because he kind of got out of his cage, and he was curious about something on the other side of the fence, and he found himself in them in a predicament that got himself in trouble.

00;02;48;24 - 00;03;13;29
Jack Cohen
And it was, you know, the zookeeper that brought him back. And, you know, obviously as a little boy, I can't sit here and tell you that that moved me. But historically, I have always been one of those curious people. I'm interested in people. I'm interested in what they do. I'm interested in people's businesses and and that curiosity has helped me along the way because, you know,

00;03;13;29 - 00;03;21;01
Jack Cohen
one of the things I say in the book is that I think there's three keys to success in your life, in your business, in your profession.

00;03;21;03 - 00;03;51;29
Jack Cohen
There's only three keys, but you have to do it every day. I think you have to acquire skills. I think you have to accumulate experiences. And I think you have to develop relationships. And so curiosity for education, for experi variances and for relationships has really served me well. And that's not to say all my experiences were good or all my skill acquisition was useful, but I can see where it anchored me on my path.

00;03;51;29 - 00;03;53;03
Jack Cohen
And I, you know,

00;03;53;03 - 00;04;03;05
Jack Cohen
it wasn't conscious then what what did somebody say? Life is best understood looking backwards. But really, you have to live it moving forward.

00;04;03;07 - 00;04;16;04
Craig Andrews
You know, something that, always has struck my curiosity as I look at cities and I think back 100, 150 years and why did people settle here?

00;04;16;07 - 00;04;21;26
Jack Cohen
And I wonder that all the time, like Las Vegas.

00;04;21;28 - 00;04;39;10
Craig Andrews
Think about this. I mean, it's now if you go to Vegas and you have a nice car, air conditioned car, it's still a half hour or 45 minutes to get to Lake Powell. Yeah. And, it's a complete mystery why people moved to Las Vegas and settled that gambling.

00;04;39;12 - 00;04;42;15
Jack Cohen
The mob, the mob and Moe Greene,

00;04;42;15 - 00;04;52;18
Jack Cohen
their Jewish account lawyer and and and that and the the stories about Vegas and the connection between the mob and the Jewish business community.

00;04;52;18 - 00;04;59;08
Jack Cohen
Is is folklore there books written about that? But your question still a good one. Why is somebody in,

00;04;59;08 - 00;05;01;08
Jack Cohen
Enid, Oklahoma, where,

00;05;01;08 - 00;05;03;03
Jack Cohen
Mickey Mantle was born, right.

00;05;03;03 - 00;05;10;07
Jack Cohen
And and so and the other corollary to that is imagine being a settler, like, we bitch and moan about,

00;05;10;07 - 00;05;16;11
Jack Cohen
United Airlines being late on our flight. Imagine crossing country to Vegas from,

00;05;16;11 - 00;05;18;27
Jack Cohen
Atlanta, Georgia to,

00;05;18;27 - 00;05;25;23
Jack Cohen
in a, in a in a wagon train, you know, you know, you know, like over the hill. I don't know how they got over the mountains.

00;05;25;23 - 00;05;29;24
Jack Cohen
And so. Yes, but maybe they were curious.

00;05;29;26 - 00;05;50;11
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, I think one of the things that you were talking about, one of the you mentioned people. Have you ever. I know the answer this certainly you've met people where you walked away. You know, maybe you talk to your wife and you said something like, you know, they didn't seem the least bit curious about me.

00;05;50;13 - 00;05;52;29
Jack Cohen
How that happens all the time. Yeah. Yeah,

00;05;52;29 - 00;05;55;05
Jack Cohen
it it is funny about that. And,

00;05;55;05 - 00;06;07;08
Jack Cohen
sometimes people are judgmental about that. I think sometimes maybe it's just nothing more than the guy was worked up telling stories about himself or the gal really is a narcissist and,

00;06;07;08 - 00;06;12;14
Jack Cohen
you know, really wants to you to know them. But, yes, we have that conversation.

00;06;12;16 - 00;06;13;10
Jack Cohen
Actually, I,

00;06;13;10 - 00;06;19;21
Jack Cohen
I know some people really, really well that my wife and I debate about going out with for that exact same reason.

00;06;19;23 - 00;06;25;20
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, and I think one of the most intoxicating things is feeling understood.

00;06;25;23 - 00;06;29;23
Jack Cohen
Yeah, yeah, it's funny you say that. It really is, because,

00;06;29;23 - 00;06;31;00
Jack Cohen
I don't know if it's a weakness,

00;06;31;00 - 00;06;34;17
Jack Cohen
or an insecurity, but you don't have to agree with me.

00;06;34;17 - 00;06;47;27
Jack Cohen
I'm not a control freak. I think I'm an influence freak. I really want to be heard. I want to be understood. And then you can go do whatever you want, and hopefully I'll participate, you know?

00;06;48;03 - 00;06;52;23
Jack Cohen
But I am in tune with the fact that I like to be,

00;06;52;23 - 00;06;56;10
Jack Cohen
understood. And I think a lot of people do.

00;06;56;12 - 00;07;08;13
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And so, I mean, that just seems like a simple thing to keep in mind, you know, to your point about being curious if you want to build relationships, be curious about the people you want build the relationships with.

00;07;08;17 - 00;07;14;21
Jack Cohen
Yeah, really good point. Really good point. It's just very it's very true. And,

00;07;14;21 - 00;07;19;16
Jack Cohen
I always find, you know, we were talking about bombs and I'm not, you know, like, surprises,

00;07;19;16 - 00;07;20;14
Jack Cohen
earlier. And,

00;07;20;14 - 00;07;28;19
Jack Cohen
I always find those delightful, like, you have no idea that people, you know, did something. You know, it's interesting story. It's a little off point, but,

00;07;28;19 - 00;07;30;17
Jack Cohen
one of the things I have done is,

00;07;30;17 - 00;07;32;12
Jack Cohen
done sales training for,

00;07;32;12 - 00;07;37;08
Jack Cohen
real estate service companies where you have different product types.

00;07;37;08 - 00;07;56;03
Jack Cohen
And how do we guys get these people to code, conspire. And we created this concept called a red shirt. You know, if I'm doing if we're going to all interview for something, everyone shows up in the on days in a suit and tie with a white shirt and then it all shifted to the A suit and tie and a light blue shirt.

00;07;56;06 - 00;08;15;25
Jack Cohen
Well, what if you showed up as a red shirt? At the end of the day, somebody may not remember crackerjack, but they'll remember the guy or gal who has a red shirt on. And so the whole key to a red shirt is to tap into somebody's secret sauce. And I, I tell you, to this day, I cannot remember the guy's name, but he ran the southern region.

00;08;15;25 - 00;08;18;22
Jack Cohen
He was a manager. Now, you know, in the real estate business.

00;08;18;22 - 00;08;37;06
Jack Cohen
My dad used to say there are two types of people. Deal people and no one else you need, right? You'll never make a name for yourself as a manager. Well, I, I thought that was silly then. I think it's silly now. So here's a guy who's a manager of a bunch of deal people who are like herding cats.

00;08;37;09 - 00;08;56;16
Jack Cohen
And we find out in conversation of his red shirt that what does he do on the weekend? He he is part of a survival search and rescue in the mountains in California. I'm sorry. What? Yeah, yeah, on my free time, I get up all my stuff. I'm trained to save people. I'm medically,

00;08;56;16 - 00;08;59;16
Jack Cohen
trained. And Bob, Bob, Bob on this is a big guy.

00;08;59;23 - 00;09;08;10
Jack Cohen
And and he on the weekend works on survival. And so I referred to him. And in my head I see a Saint Bernard. And and the funny

00;09;08;10 - 00;09;21;07
Jack Cohen
is it is. I don't know how that story came up. I can't even remember his name, but I would want to work for that guy because he shared the secret sauce about him and his personality.

00;09;21;10 - 00;09;30;29
Jack Cohen
And so when you hear stories like that about people in a professional center setting or at a cocktail party, I love those stories and I get all excited about it. Yeah.

00;09;31;01 - 00;09;48;11
Craig Andrews
Yeah, I and, you know, I think you tapped into something really powerful there. Yeah. So I'm a marketer and I'm always trying to figure out how to make people stand out. And some of the tough news I have to share with folks, I'm like, you know, let's say, for instance, financial advisors, you know,

00;09;48;11 - 00;09;52;15
Craig Andrews
Ken Fisher spends, you know, a 100 million a year trying to convince people that he's different.

00;09;52;21 - 00;10;11;09
Craig Andrews
He even says it in the ads for different. I'm like, no, there's 450,000 financial advisors. You look substantially similar to everyone else. And so it's often those things like, you know, the red shirt items that you're talking about that are more personal, that make you interesting.

00;10;11;11 - 00;10;18;18
Jack Cohen
Yeah. Yeah. And I think I think people do business with interesting people. I just think that, you know, and it's funny, it's like,

00;10;18;18 - 00;10;31;24
Jack Cohen
I'm trying to impart this wisdom on kids coming out of college who think, yeah, I studied hard and I took this class and all that kind of and therefore I'm valuable to your company. Dude, do you have any hobbies?

00;10;31;24 - 00;10;47;21
Jack Cohen
No. What do you like to do? Oh, I like to do, you know, games we we like. That's how many interesting like. Yeah. You know, so I again I, I don't know I, it sounds too judgmental, but,

00;10;47;21 - 00;10;56;02
Jack Cohen
I think we are attracted to interesting people who are fun to interact with because sometimes business has ups and sometimes it has downs.

00;10;56;04 - 00;10;57;02
Craig Andrews
Yeah.

00;10;57;02 - 00;11;11;02
Craig Andrews
Absolutely. Well, and one get to the framework and then a couple months, but there's maybe you can help me satisfy a little bit my own personal curiosity. So you do commercial real estate. What have you been doing in commercial real estate.

00;11;11;04 - 00;11;16;18
Jack Cohen
So I have been on the finance side for almost 44 years. So,

00;11;16;18 - 00;11;22;28
Jack Cohen
early in my career, we, represented life insurance companies. People don't really think about this, but,

00;11;22;28 - 00;11;38;11
Jack Cohen
in business, if you think about asset and liability matching, real estate is a long term held asset historically. And therefore life insurance companies used to finance that in order to offset their liabilities to life insurance.

00;11;38;14 - 00;11;39;09
Jack Cohen
And so,

00;11;39;09 - 00;11;41;16
Jack Cohen
our business in the early days,

00;11;41;16 - 00;12;01;15
Jack Cohen
I've made three great mistakes in my life. The first one was going to work for my dad. We were called a mortgage banker, and we represented in Chicago certain life companies. If you want to borrow money from John Hancock in Chicago, you could not borrow for them. And so I started with life insurance companies and then banks and pension funds and debt funds and Wall Street.

00;12;01;21 - 00;12;03;12
Jack Cohen
And I have been,

00;12;03;12 - 00;12;09;00
Jack Cohen
a self-proclaimed canary in the coal mine, in the, in the commercial real estate finance,

00;12;09;00 - 00;12;16;11
Jack Cohen
capital markets. So my view is I'm here to help other people capitalize their,

00;12;16;11 - 00;12;25;03
Jack Cohen
projects, but it's all income producing. I know very little about residential, and I forget to refinance my home when interest rates go down. Right.

00;12;25;03 - 00;12;27;08
Jack Cohen
The cobbler without any shoes.

00;12;27;11 - 00;12;40;26
Craig Andrews
Yeah, well, you know, I've there's a couple things I have always. There's one that's just really has me wondering. Yes. Like Austin right now has 20% vacancy and it's,

00;12;40;26 - 00;12;41;27
Craig Andrews
real estate.

00;12;41;27 - 00;12;43;02
Craig Andrews
I saw that,

00;12;43;02 - 00;12;47;10
Craig Andrews
the, the founder of Under Armor set off to build,

00;12;47;10 - 00;12;53;04
Craig Andrews
you know, a new part of Baltimore, you know, and the place is a ghost town.

00;12;53;07 - 00;13;11;04
Craig Andrews
And and part of the thing that made it a ghost town was that they started this before Covid. And then a lot of people didn't return to the office. What's, from your perspective, what's the future for commercial real estate? Is this just a temporary dip as it can recover well.

00;13;11;04 - 00;13;11;17
Jack Cohen
So,

00;13;11;17 - 00;13;13;29
Jack Cohen
you're you're asking a very nuanced question.

00;13;13;29 - 00;13;17;02
Jack Cohen
So I'm going to pass it. I think,

00;13;17;02 - 00;13;41;19
Jack Cohen
office is a problem, and I think office was a problem that everyone ignored pre-COVID and Covid, clearly, for the reason you explained has kind of surfaced. But there were there were, systemic problems in the, the age of the auto stock, in the quality, in the sustainability, you know, the tree huggers.

00;13;41;19 - 00;13;51;23
Jack Cohen
We're worried about carbon footprints. There's a lot of that that created problems. Setting that aside, in my almost 44 years in the,

00;13;51;23 - 00;13;56;11
Jack Cohen
business, we have had same xylem fail. We had,

00;13;56;11 - 00;14;01;06
Jack Cohen
an Asian crisis, a Russian crisis. We had the great financial,

00;14;01;06 - 00;14;09;04
Jack Cohen
crisis. We've had bad tenants, bad lenders. None of that exists. What happened is two things.

00;14;09;04 - 00;14;27;27
Jack Cohen
Interest rates went down, cap rates went down. And I'm going to use the term judgmentally. Lazy sponsors didn't really have plans to enhance the value of their asset, and they borrowed money short term. They broke. If you remember, in the 90s,

00;14;27;27 - 00;14;29;23
Jack Cohen
the failure of long term capital,

00;14;29;23 - 00;14;37;06
Jack Cohen
management, there was a book called When Genius Fails and the punchline was match your assets with your liabilities in terms of.

00;14;37;09 - 00;15;05;21
Jack Cohen
But everyone got greedy. And so rates coming down, cap rates coming down. Borrow short and I'll flip the property all of a sudden. Maybe because of Covid and and the PGP payments we had lots of inflation. Feds fed stepped in and spiked interest rates. Well you spiked interest rates. All that short term borrowing was floating rate. And what's happened is, is that the sponsor the building can't afford the debt service.

00;15;05;23 - 00;15;29;06
Jack Cohen
And they don't have enough capital to be able to refinance the property. So you have, across the country, really good borrowers, largely, really good assets, largely really good markets, largely with capital stacks upside down. And so some of the things we do with some of the companies that I work with is to help refinance and recapitalize those assets.

00;15;29;11 - 00;15;35;12
Jack Cohen
But you are right, office is an issue, and that's going to take some time.

00;15;35;14 - 00;15;43;28
Craig Andrews
Is it something that's just going to occur over time? Eventually our appetite for the office space will match the the inventory.

00;15;44;00 - 00;16;06;16
Jack Cohen
Yes or no? I think a couple of things have to happen in Chicago in particular, I was talking to a friend and client who's a suburban developer, and what's happening in Chicago is something like either 10% of the stock or like 100,000,000ft. A lot of square feet is being taken to the ground. And it's it'll be land value for a while and something will get redeveloped.

00;16;06;16 - 00;16;34;10
Jack Cohen
So if we reduce the stock, that's one thing if we change the purpose. So some cities like Manhattan are trying to convert office to apartment, and that's not always going to work. But the third thing that is actually likely to happen is exactly what you suggested is offer is will actually change the environmental experience for their employees, who will want to come back to the office.

00;16;34;13 - 00;16;40;14
Jack Cohen
And we will reuse office differently. You know, I'm a little older than you, but when I got into,

00;16;40;14 - 00;16;42;16
Jack Cohen
the real World in Chicago,

00;16;42;16 - 00;17;00;27
Jack Cohen
the average square footage per person was like 400ft². Pre-COVID, it got down to 100ft² per capita because a hotel in and cubes and all these other stuff. And before Covid, Google made a big splash with their campus.

00;17;00;27 - 00;17;20;05
Jack Cohen
And yeah, you can work outside and the Wi-Fi works in the gym or whatever. And what they were really trying to do is enhance the environment for the employee. Then work from home came and everyone says, well, wait, this is easy. I can do my laundry, I can walk the dog, I can talk on the phone. I'm way more, which is crap.

00;17;20;05 - 00;17;40;03
Jack Cohen
That's not the case, right? People are so the lambo's they need to be working together in cohorts and collaborate. So it will take some time. But there is some dramatic stuff. There's too much stock, there's obsolete stock. And on top of it, we need to get demand and supply back in place.

00;17;40;05 - 00;18;03;18
Craig Andrews
Yeah. The other thing that I've seen I, I've seen this for decades and I just my brain, it hurts my brain. I don't understand it. I'll see a brand new office space open. You know they'll build, you know, a couple hundred thousand square feet and it's empty. You go to try, right at least. And they're like, these are our rates.

00;18;03;18 - 00;18;24;18
Craig Andrews
And you're like, that's too expensive. Can you offer lower? And they're like, nope, nope. And they will let I've seen buildings sit empty for like 2 or 3 years because they went and dropped the rates. It's not that they didn't have interest and I can't figure that out. I'm like, how is this a winning proposition for you to be paying servicing that debt for 2 or 3 years with no revenue?

00;18;24;21 - 00;18;36;27
Jack Cohen
No, it's and you know, what know I've learned in the real estate business is you can't legislate against greed or stupidity. And the industry is, is, is, is chock full of both. That is,

00;18;36;27 - 00;18;42;13
Jack Cohen
you're right. It's a stupid business decision. That shouldn't be.

00;18;42;16 - 00;18;47;05
Craig Andrews
Okay. Right? I thought maybe I was missing something profound.

00;18;47;07 - 00;18;49;16
Jack Cohen
No, but what I thought you were going to say, which is,

00;18;49;16 - 00;19;07;15
Jack Cohen
I don't mean this as horrible sounds, but it's almost like a Ponzi scheme in Chicago. What was happening is somebody in a good building, a law firm, a developer would go to them and say, Craig, you're a law firm. I'd like to be my anchor tenant in my building that I'm going to,

00;19;07;15 - 00;19;08;01
Jack Cohen
develop.

00;19;08;01 - 00;19;26;27
Jack Cohen
And you'll move in in five years and you'll say, well, when I just moved in two years ago in. Like the space. Yeah, but I'm going to give you money. I'm going to give you this. I'm going to give you that. And there became the shell game that created a sort soft,

00;19;26;27 - 00;19;36;23
Jack Cohen
submarket of sub vacancy subleasing. And no one paid attention to any of that because they was a shiny object.

00;19;36;23 - 00;19;47;22
Jack Cohen
Oh, new building, new anchor tenant. Isn't this all wonderful? And then the other mistake we made is unlike any other asset type in office. We started,

00;19;47;22 - 00;19;57;18
Jack Cohen
spending money for our tenant on their inside of their space. Right. You move into an apartment building, it's paint and carpet industrial building. It's paint carpet on 5% of the building.

00;19;57;18 - 00;20;24;07
Jack Cohen
Right. But it got to a point in LA where the building cost less than 150 bucks a foot shell in core to build it. And the tenant improvements cost were almost 200. Well, that's not sustainable. What everyone should understand is the market is too soft. If we're bribing our tenants with that kind of lucrative reasons to move in, it's no longer an economically viable asset class.

00;20;24;10 - 00;20;41;05
Jack Cohen
And that has to flush through. I think the minute you say crack and you can have this space, it's $10 a foot and I don't care what you put in your building now, Craig's not going to move when the next developer comes by and says, can I take you as my anchor tenant because you've invested in your space?

00;20;41;08 - 00;20;46;18
Craig Andrews
Yeah, that makes sense. Well, let's, let's put it let's talk about these,

00;20;46;18 - 00;20;53;19
Craig Andrews
frameworks, 60 practical business frameworks. What are those? How did you develop them and how do you use them?

00;20;53;21 - 00;20;54;03
Jack Cohen
So,

00;20;54;03 - 00;20;56;03
Jack Cohen
I'll give you a metaphor first.

00;20;56;03 - 00;21;21;19
Jack Cohen
As as we were chatting about before, I confess, I have a superhero complex, and my favorite superhero is Batman. Why? He had no superpowers. He was blessed with intellectual and economic resources. And what did he do? He use those two to create tools to affix to his utility belt, to help others on their journey.

00;21;21;21 - 00;21;43;21
Jack Cohen
And I thought, what a cool construct and metaphor for a business consulting business where you could help others optimize their journey. But in order to do that, you kind of had to have tools to affix to you to your utility belt. So I'm in high school and I'm looking around in my,

00;21;43;21 - 00;21;49;21
Jack Cohen
class and I'm realizing I'm not the dumbest person in the class, but I'm certainly not innately the smartest.

00;21;49;23 - 00;22;16;20
Jack Cohen
So what I'm going to do is outwork everyone. And how am I going to do that? I'm going to learn something about time management. So literally in middle school I started studying time management. So for, you know, the first framework I that I curated was how I could you accomplish more with less perceived less resources. And over the last 50 years I have,

00;22;16;20 - 00;22;18;08
Jack Cohen
accumulated these frameworks.

00;22;18;08 - 00;22;19;09
Jack Cohen
Some of them,

00;22;19;09 - 00;22;25;00
Jack Cohen
I made up, others I was taught and some I even stole. And on that basis,

00;22;25;00 - 00;22;34;20
Jack Cohen
these were frameworks that I used to manage me to manage others, to manage teams, to manage businesses and and with it. Fast forward.

00;22;34;20 - 00;22;41;06
Jack Cohen
I have been blessed to be asked on industry associations at conferences to run roundtables.

00;22;41;09 - 00;22;58;06
Jack Cohen
And I had this idea. The idea was, why don't I facilitate a discussion with young professionals? So Off-Broadway, private room, young professionals, you know, 25 to 35 years old, what do you guys want to talk about? And no question, a third of their,

00;22;58;06 - 00;23;08;29
Jack Cohen
their questions were about career development, career or career management. And so I don't know why I got this bug up my rectal cavity and concluded, what if I inventory all these frameworks?

00;23;09;02 - 00;23;48;19
Jack Cohen
And I started putting in writing stories about these frameworks, stories where I, as a man, failed or a father failed, or stories about my children, things that I use the framework for, and I organize them really targeting the young professional to give them a workbook for career management self-efficacy skills. So some of it is time management, some of it's how to run a meeting, but a lot of it is how to think about beginning with the end in mind and creating pull energy for yourself so that you can come up with a career development plan for yourself.

00;23;48;21 - 00;23;55;16
Jack Cohen
Whether you're a young professional or perish the thought middle age, and decide you want to go from being a lawyer to,

00;23;55;16 - 00;24;12;02
Jack Cohen
real estate developer or whatever it may be. So it's really been although it wasn't conscious, it was a life's journey. And I kind of realized that life is best understood looking backwards, but all of us have to live it going forward.

00;24;12;05 - 00;24;21;17
Jack Cohen
And my thought was, well, can I help optimize people's journey by giving them some stories and an easy workbook to learn some of this stuff?

00;24;21;19 - 00;24;32;10
Craig Andrews
So if I'm hearing you correctly, basically you're able to get with these tools, you're able to get more work done with less effort. Would that be one way of putting it?

00;24;32;13 - 00;24;47;10
Jack Cohen
Yeah for sure. And you can be more self-sufficient, right? I think everyone focuses on outcomes, but rarely do they think about the source activities. You know,

00;24;47;10 - 00;25;08;05
Jack Cohen
Michael Jordan famously said one time, you'll miss 100% of the shots that you don't take. Right? And and so the idea was there was a lot of practice that went into a lot of source activities that by the time he got to the game and won all those championships, everyone focused on the outcome.

00;25;08;07 - 00;25;28;17
Jack Cohen
Well, I think a lot of people say I want that, but they don't know how to get there. And so the these are tools and frameworks to help them have the journey right. Freedom frameworks. What I value most in life was freedom I own. I protected for myself and for those that are in my orbit. And how do you be free?

00;25;28;17 - 00;25;52;15
Jack Cohen
You have to be responsible, but you have to be independent and self-sufficient. And I don't mean that economically. I mean that with your skills, with your relationships, with your experiences. And now how can we we be on this journey? And so I had different metaphors and different frameworks that helped explain good times, bad times. I give you a silly example.

00;25;52;17 - 00;25;53;27
Jack Cohen
As one of these,

00;25;53;27 - 00;26;07;20
Jack Cohen
women in the roundtable asked, I'd like to talk about burnout, and I let these kids talk about burnout. And it was really kind of fascinating to listen to. And then they wanted my input. I said, no, no, you don't want my input.

00;26;07;20 - 00;26;09;24
Jack Cohen
Yeah. No, we really do. I said, no, no, I'm not.

00;26;09;24 - 00;26;15;05
Jack Cohen
I'm here to facilitate. So that boxed me in a corner. And I said, look,

00;26;15;05 - 00;26;24;15
Jack Cohen
Jim, Laura was the head coach for Jimmy Connors. Remember? Jimmy Connors was the tennis first bad boy of tennis.

00;26;24;17 - 00;26;25;23
Craig Andrews
Yeah, the angry guy.

00;26;25;26 - 00;26;59;21
Jack Cohen
Right. And in the book, Jim McClure said high stakes professional athletes are not overstressed. They're under recovered. He encouraged Jimmy Connors to do those antics to blow off steam. And when I tried to explain to everyone is we need to ebb and flow about our stress and our recovery, too much of us want to achieve something and we work, work, work, work, work and we burnout.

00;26;59;24 - 00;27;18;04
Jack Cohen
Where are we working about the if you believe it's a sine wave and the peaks are our stress and our troughs our recovery, what are we doing day to day for recovery strategies?

00;27;18;07 - 00;27;21;24
Craig Andrews
And what would be a good recovery strategy?

00;27;21;27 - 00;27;26;09
Jack Cohen
Well, it depends on people. I, I, another story.

00;27;26;09 - 00;27;30;17
Jack Cohen
You know, what changed your life kind of thing? I'm ten years old and,

00;27;30;17 - 00;27;42;16
Jack Cohen
I and Thunderball comes out the real James Bond, Sean Connery. And in Thunderball, he had a black belt. He flew an airplane, he drove a motorcycle, he drove a fast one,

00;27;42;16 - 00;27;43;22
Jack Cohen
boat and he rochlin.

00;27;43;29 - 00;28;01;01
Jack Cohen
And I'm thinking how much there was this girl thing, but that was lost on me at ten years old. But this became a bucket list of skills that I wanted to acquire as part of my arsenal. I didn't know what I was going to do. I certainly wasn't going to be a secret agent. Right. How do you go do that?

00;28;01;03 - 00;28;03;05
Jack Cohen
But fast forward, I fly,

00;28;03;05 - 00;28;03;29
Jack Cohen
single pilot,

00;28;03;29 - 00;28;12;27
Jack Cohen
a citation jet. For me, flying aviation is a great recovery for me. I live in the mountains. I like to hike.

00;28;12;27 - 00;28;27;12
Jack Cohen
I like exercise to blow off steam. But I have all this pent up energy. I have to blow it. Blow it off other people, you know, could do crochet or cooking or, you know, woodwork.

00;28;27;12 - 00;29;00;11
Jack Cohen
It doesn't really matter. But how do we weave our hobbies and those things that clear our mind? Sherlock Holmes once said, the best rest is a change of problem. So whether I was getting a second degree black belt and Tamaki side eye aikido, or learning to scuba dive or learning to fly or rock climbing, all of these were activities that caused so much focus and cleansed my brain for the work or familial,

00;29;00;11 - 00;29;03;19
Jack Cohen
or sibling or wife or children.

00;29;03;19 - 00;29;08;07
Jack Cohen
Anxiety that I have all day that is weighing me down.

00;29;08;09 - 00;29;20;17
Craig Andrews
Okay, now, and that makes a lot of sense. And I think about that in the context of something I need to do is get more out into the workshop and do a little bit more woodworking.

00;29;20;17 - 00;29;26;01
Craig Andrews
Because I know when I do that, my work product here is better.

00;29;26;03 - 00;29;45;20
Jack Cohen
And then and there's the whole point, because for some reason it just cleanses your brain. It's like reset on your sometimes your computer gets all screwed up and you call it and it says, just reboot it and you say what they say, turn it off. Like, you know, like my wife never turns her phone off. And every once in a while there's a problem, right?

00;29;45;20 - 00;29;54;29
Jack Cohen
And I just turn it off and let it sit for ten minutes. That's a reboot. Woodworking for you is a reboot. Why don't we do that more?

00;29;55;01 - 00;30;01;13
Craig Andrews
Well, that's a great tip, Jack. I could literally go another hour. I,

00;30;01;13 - 00;30;05;29
Craig Andrews
this has just been amazing, but we got to wrap up,

00;30;05;29 - 00;30;10;07
Craig Andrews
your book, The Freedom Frameworks. Where can people get that?

00;30;10;10 - 00;30;11;24
Jack Cohen
It's on all the platforms.

00;30;11;24 - 00;30;12;08
Jack Cohen
It's,

00;30;12;08 - 00;30;12;26
Jack Cohen
Amazon,

00;30;12;26 - 00;30;16;26
Jack Cohen
seems to be where people are most accessing it, but Barnes and Noble and,

00;30;16;26 - 00;30;17;24
Jack Cohen
and the other,

00;30;17;24 - 00;30;33;28
Jack Cohen
it's freedom framework. It's Jackson actually. Next week, it's coming out an audiobook. Remember Craig had talked about telling stories about my kids. So my son Wyatt is going to be me talking about him in the audiobook.

00;30;34;04 - 00;30;37;22
Jack Cohen
If that doesn't put white in therapy, I don't know what will.

00;30;37;25 - 00;30;43;11
Craig Andrews
Okay. That's awesome. And Jack, how can people reach you?

00;30;43;13 - 00;30;44;26
Jack Cohen
I, I have a website,

00;30;44;26 - 00;30;50;04
Jack Cohen
Dark Knight, like Batman, Dark Knight Ventures, dot net. So ventures, plural.

00;30;50;04 - 00;30;55;09
Jack Cohen
My phone number is (312) 543-5872. And,

00;30;55;09 - 00;31;00;28
Jack Cohen
I, you know, I'm I'm here to help others optimize their journey.

00;31;01;01 - 00;31;03;28
Craig Andrews
Well that's awesome. Thank you for coming on, Leaders and Legacies.

00;31;04;01 - 00;31;08;10
Jack Cohen
Thank you for having me, Craig. It was a delight.

00;31;08;10 - 00;31;35;04
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Alize for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this

00;31;35;04 - 00;31;36;29
Craig Andrews
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00;31;37;01 - 00;32;00;13
Craig Andrews
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00;32;00;15 - 00;32;08;20
Craig Andrews
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00;32;08;20 - 00;34;10;25
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Alize for me.com. or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.