Brian Massey, founder of Conversion Sciences, joins Craig Andrews to unpack the power of leadership through rigorous experimentation. Known as the "Conversion Scientist," Brian has spent over 15 years transforming how businesses approach their websites—moving from guesswork to data-backed results.

In this conversation, Brian breaks down why most companies treat their websites like static brochures and how that mindset kills performance. He explains his framework for the five types of websites and why identifying your type is the first leadership step in digital strategy.

Brian also dives into A/B testing, revealing why it’s not just about increasing conversions—it’s about creating a culture of learning and humility. He shares costly redesign failures from major brands and why launching a new website without testing is one of the riskiest moves a leader can make.

Finally, Brian reflects on how AI is reshaping marketing and what leaders must do to stay ahead.

Want to learn more about Brian Massey's work? Check out their website at https://conversionsciences.com.

Connect with Brian Massey on LinkedIn at https://linkedin.com/in/bmassey.

Think you'd be a great guest on the show? Apply at https://podcast.allies4me.com/podcast-guest/.

Want to learn more about Craig Andrew's work at allies4me? Check out his website at https://allies4me.com/.

KEY POINTS & TIMESTAMPS

• [00:01:06] Brian Massey’s background and his origin story in conversion optimization

• [00:03:30] The five types of websites and why most businesses start with the wrong one

• [00:05:31] What is conversion optimization and how it provides business value

• [00:07:08] The costly mistake of full-site redesigns without testing

• [00:09:00] Finish Line’s $3M mistake and why rollback options matter

• [00:11:07] Page-by-page redesigns as a lower-risk alternative to full overhauls

• [00:13:12] A/B testing demystified: how to test headlines, CTAs, and design

• [00:17:09] Humility in leadership: trusting the data over personal bias

• [00:18:22] The danger of poorly constructed tests: the New Coke story

• [00:20:15] AI meets personality tests: how Enneagram-informed prompts improve messaging

• [00:24:08] The limits of focus groups and the emotional power of design decisions

• [00:26:01] Testing storytelling elements—like a gambler’s past—as trust builders

• [00:30:06] The rise of generative AI and why prompting is the new leadership skill

• [00:34:00] Why the right AI-generated image beats generic stock photos

• [00:42:08] The story behind Brian’s signature lab coat and the psychology of authority

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment of my career.

00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;10
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on the show.

00;00;51;10 - 00;01;06;04
Craig Andrews
Today I want to welcome Brian Massey. He is the founder of Conversion Sciences. He's the author of your customer creation equation. And he's the host of the Unintended Consequences podcast.

00;01;06;04 - 00;01;11;28
Craig Andrews
Brian, since 2007, Brian has worked with hundreds of companies to improve their online businesses.

00;01;11;28 - 00;01;22;24
Craig Andrews
Let me just add a little bit of color that he's helped to make a lot more revenue through little adjustments to their website that they didn't need to do and why.

00;01;22;24 - 00;01;41;18
Craig Andrews
My favorite sayings that Brian has is he says I'm I'm wrong. Half of the time you're hiring me for the half of the time that I'm right. And I've known Brian for a number of years and really excited to bring him on. Leaders and legacies. Brian, welcome.

00;01;41;21 - 00;01;49;11
Brian Massey
Back. Thank you for having me. And I'm probably wrong more than half the time. Just incidentally. Well.

00;01;49;14 - 00;02;00;11
Craig Andrews
But but the key is it's the times that you're right are enough to move the needle enough for the companies to make it worth it.

00;02;00;14 - 00;02;03;02
Brian Massey
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And we know which,

00;02;03;02 - 00;02;05;28
Brian Massey
which times I'm right because we do the experiments.

00;02;06;00 - 00;02;15;28
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, you know, we met years ago, and I forget exactly how it worked out, but I told my wife, Karen about it, and she's like, I think I know him.

00;02;16;26 - 00;02;27;04
Craig Andrews
And I think you and I went back and forth a couple times. At one point you sent me a picture of your yearbook. You and my wife went to high school together.

00;02;27;07 - 00;02;30;07
Brian Massey
Yeah.

00;02;30;09 - 00;02;31;26
Craig Andrews
It's just wild.

00;02;31;29 - 00;02;34;25
Brian Massey
It is a strange coincidence. Yeah.

00;02;34;28 - 00;02;36;20
Craig Andrews
Yeah.

00;02;36;23 - 00;02;37;06
Brian Massey
I guess,

00;02;37;06 - 00;02;47;21
Brian Massey
I mean, it wasn't an overly large high school, so statistically, it's probably pretty rare. But, you know, we're both in Texas still, so that narrows down the probability.

00;02;47;23 - 00;03;03;17
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, I mean, in between high school, you made tours through Japan. She lived in West Virginia and North Carolina and then. Somehow. And you all grew up in Arlington and somehow both made it here to Austin.

00;03;03;20 - 00;03;13;09
Brian Massey
Somehow. Yeah. Austin's a magnet for a certain kind of person. I think. So the sample size is skewed and a little bit. Yeah.

00;03;13;12 - 00;03;19;03
Craig Andrews
That makes sense. Well I remember you know, I met you.

00;03;19;03 - 00;03;29;17
Craig Andrews
I think it was at, I think it was at Pub Con and you gave me a copy of your book, your customer creation equation.

00;03;30;28 - 00;03;47;29
Craig Andrews
And at the time I hadn't really heard of conversion optimization. I think that was, that was my introduction to it. And there were some of my biggest takeaways was you had five types of websites that you identified in that book. And

00;03;47;29 - 00;03;52;07
Craig Andrews
I can't remember what are the five types of websites.

00;03;52;10 - 00;03;52;22
Brian Massey
Well,

00;03;52;22 - 00;03;54;15
Brian Massey
the brochure site,

00;03;54;15 - 00;04;02;03
Brian Massey
the, the sales site, the, sales, sales support site. Oh my gosh.

00;04;02;03 - 00;04;05;15
Brian Massey
Site as a service where the site delivers the product,

00;04;05;15 - 00;04;10;02
Brian Massey
and lead generation site. I think those are the five. Yeah.

00;04;10;04 - 00;04;25;24
Craig Andrews
And. And for me, it was kind. It provides some clarity of. Well, we have these five categories. Before you build a website, you better figure out what you want to do and figure out which category you're going for.

00;04;25;26 - 00;04;38;05
Brian Massey
Yeah. Well, at the time everybody was building essentially brochure sites. So they, you know, they wanted their websites to help them generate business that they wanted to, you know, have people call on the phone,

00;04;38;05 - 00;04;53;29
Brian Massey
but, you know, they weren't putting the calls to action in there and they were instrumenting it, you know, to allow them to fill out a form or if they did have a form, it was on the contact page and there were no calls to action to basically, people were taking their brochures and putting them on the web and expecting

00;04;53;29 - 00;04;56;17
Brian Massey
that to be this revolution for their business.

00;04;56;21 - 00;05;05;23
Brian Massey
And so my, my primary point and, you know, I've always been kind of tilting at the windmills of corporate market.

00;05;05;23 - 00;05;13;25
Brian Massey
My goal was for them to stop then something like, oh, yeah, we have a, we have a brochure site up, but we really want one of these others.

00;05;13;25 - 00;05;14;06
Brian Massey
I think,

00;05;14;06 - 00;05;21;07
Brian Massey
I'm glad that, it was your first introduction to conversion optimization, and, that's the takeaway that I wanted to deliver.

00;05;21;09 - 00;05;31;08
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Now for those. And it's hard to imagine that there are people that don't know what conversion optimization is, but for the few there that don't. How would you describe conversion optimization?

00;05;31;10 - 00;05;39;05
Brian Massey
Well, so we describe it in conversion sciences as getting the most value out of every visitor to your website.

00;05;39;05 - 00;05;45;11
Brian Massey
So for an e-commerce site, the primary thing you want people to do is buy. But you also could be,

00;05;45;11 - 00;05;50;22
Brian Massey
building your list, for people that aren't ready to buy or if you have more of a considered purchase,

00;05;50;22 - 00;05;53;00
Brian Massey
build out your list so you can continue to educate,

00;05;53;00 - 00;05;54;21
Brian Massey
update and promote your products,

00;05;54;21 - 00;05;55;13
Brian Massey
over email.

00;05;55;13 - 00;05;58;23
Brian Massey
So there's a value to that for the business.

00;05;58;23 - 00;05;59;16
Brian Massey
There may be,

00;05;59;16 - 00;06;04;09
Brian Massey
some education that people need to have, like understanding what conversion optimization is.

00;06;04;09 - 00;06;07;29
Brian Massey
So people downloading a report or reading a particular,

00;06;07;29 - 00;06;13;14
Brian Massey
article might be really important. So we try to value those things and,

00;06;13;14 - 00;06;22;20
Brian Massey
we do we use data behavioral science and experiments to figure out what those things are that,

00;06;22;20 - 00;06;28;21
Brian Massey
you know, what you can do with your website to get more people to take an action that begins a conversation or,

00;06;28;21 - 00;06;31;06
Brian Massey
has them buy something from you?

00;06;31;08 - 00;06;34;01
Craig Andrews
Yeah. You know,

00;06;34;01 - 00;06;35;25
Craig Andrews
one of the I hate doing,

00;06;35;25 - 00;06;39;00
Craig Andrews
website projects. I'll do one every now and then, but,

00;06;39;00 - 00;06;49;17
Craig Andrews
the reason I hate it is anytime we do that, people just come out of the woodwork. All of a sudden you discover that you have a company full of web experts, know exactly what should be on the website.

00;06;49;24 - 00;06;51;00
Brian Massey
Yeah.

00;06;51;02 - 00;06;57;10
Craig Andrews
And most of these people have never fired up Google Analytics in their life.

00;06;57;12 - 00;07;08;12
Brian Massey
But you know, it's so the, the thing that I've been tilting about for the last couple decades is all in testing. So you

00;07;08;12 - 00;07;25;12
Brian Massey
we got a new CMO. One of the first things I usually do is redesign the website and they hire smart people and give them a little bit of research. But then that team makes a bunch of decisions, and six months later, they push the whole thing out and hope that most of those decisions were good decisions.

00;07;25;15 - 00;07;27;04
Brian Massey
And that is,

00;07;27;04 - 00;07;40;16
Brian Massey
that's an experiment. It's just a very it's a very expensive experiment. So doing that is conversion optimization, because everybody's going to be watching the new website to see how it converts. Right.

00;07;40;16 - 00;07;41;04
Brian Massey
So it's,

00;07;41;04 - 00;07;53;24
Brian Massey
you know, our goal is to do experiments that, improve one of these metrics, one of these, you know, getting more people to take an action that benefits the business and the customer.

00;07;53;26 - 00;08;02;25
Brian Massey
B learn something about your visitors or don't, you know, using different copy, different headlines can tell you something about the language you need to be using,

00;08;02;25 - 00;08;03;29
Brian Massey
or doing,

00;08;03;29 - 00;08;05;16
Brian Massey
or doing.

00;08;05;16 - 00;08;08;12
Brian Massey
That that's what we call it. Exploratory and,

00;08;08;12 - 00;08;10;22
Brian Massey
exploitative tests.

00;08;10;22 - 00;08;14;29
Brian Massey
And our goal is to reduce the,

00;08;14;29 - 00;08;19;01
Brian Massey
the basically reduce the cost of those experiments because every experiment is a risk,

00;08;19;01 - 00;08;22;03
Brian Massey
an experiment, especially like an AB test.

00;08;22;06 - 00;08;44;24
Brian Massey
You put it out there, it has a lower conversion rate. It's costing you money because the variation that has lower conversion rate is reducing your sales. The amount of time it takes to design those experiments is expensive or has a cost. So if you think about the most expensive experiment, you can do, it's like change everything and push it out and see what happens.

00;08;44;26 - 00;08;47;06
Craig Andrews
And I'm trying to remember there's,

00;08;47;06 - 00;08;59;29
Craig Andrews
there's been some notable examples, like really big sites and push it out in like, you know, 24 hours later or a week later, they pull down the new site and put up the old site. You remember in the big ones.

00;09;00;03 - 00;09;00;25
Brian Massey
That was,

00;09;00;25 - 00;09;02;10
Brian Massey
that was the,

00;09;02;10 - 00;09;04;04
Brian Massey
sports apparel site,

00;09;04;04 - 00;09;05;14
Brian Massey
finish line.

00;09;05;16 - 00;09;06;05
Craig Andrews
Finish line.

00;09;06;06 - 00;09;27;01
Brian Massey
Yeah, yeah, they had this grand redesign, you know, one of those, you know, kind of cool. And this was in 2012 and they launched it at the beginning of the holiday season. So fortunately somebody kept the old site on a server somewhere so that they could roll back. Most of the time when businesses do a redesign, they don't.

00;09;27;08 - 00;09;42;18
Brian Massey
There's no way to roll back when they call me, they're like, I redesign the site. It's beautiful. We love it. Conversion rate dropped 40%. I'm like, I can fix this immediately for you. Just go back to the old site and we'll do some experiments and figure out what worked and what didn't work.

00;09;42;20 - 00;09;51;22
Craig Andrews
Yeah, we think that cost them. Well, just for the site development. What do you think? Ballpark. What finish line paid for that site in 2012?

00;09;51;24 - 00;09;56;03
Brian Massey
I don't even remember that. I think that they you know, I would expect that they for that would have paid,

00;09;56;03 - 00;10;05;28
Brian Massey
$200,000 or so. Yeah. And it cost them, you know, within a couple of weeks, I think cost them $3 million in revenue.

00;10;05;28 - 00;10;12;17
Brian Massey
In that first couple weeks. Yeah. Some heads rolled around that. Yeah.

00;10;12;17 - 00;10;18;06
Brian Massey
Marks and Spencer did the same thing, but so Marks and Spencer spent,

00;10;18;06 - 00;10;24;18
Brian Massey
some outrageous amount of money, like $50 million redoing their website.

00;10;24;20 - 00;10;25;08
Brian Massey
Yeah. And,

00;10;25;08 - 00;10;29;10
Brian Massey
when it went out, the conversion rate dropped.

00;10;29;12 - 00;10;33;26
Craig Andrews
Yeah. I mean, it's just insane and something.

00;10;33;28 - 00;10;55;21
Brian Massey
But, I mean, we're doing that with our websites, too. Just think, just think about that way. What every every, every changes. An experiment. Every time you you change something on the site, you're doing an experiment. You may not be going back and doing that before and after analysis, but you are watching your conversions and you want them to go up.

00;10;55;23 - 00;10;59;24
Brian Massey
So just think about what's the expense of this particular change.

00;10;59;24 - 00;11;04;02
Brian Massey
And how could we mitigate the risk by ourselves? Some design insurance with,

00;11;04;02 - 00;11;07;11
Brian Massey
some strategic testing.

00;11;07;13 - 00;11;15;04
Craig Andrews
Or you publish something a number of your years ago where you basically did a full website design by redesigning one page at a time.

00;11;15;23 - 00;11;17;01
Craig Andrews
Kind of experimenting.

00;11;17;01 - 00;11;19;21
Craig Andrews
What was what was that about?

00;11;19;23 - 00;11;22;23
Brian Massey
Well, so that was a company was called,

00;11;22;23 - 00;11;24;17
Brian Massey
what smart code. They sold,

00;11;24;17 - 00;11;33;18
Brian Massey
software and hardware for tracking and managing things in a warehouse, typically using barcodes and, yeah, they they wanted to rebrand.

00;11;33;18 - 00;11;40;15
Brian Massey
They had a pretty distinct branding already on the website. So we were like, well, we don't want to just go in and change everything.

00;11;40;18 - 00;11;43;10
Brian Massey
So we started with the money pages and,

00;11;43;10 - 00;11;59;18
Brian Massey
redesign those, and those are those, those are this was the lead generation site. So that was where people filled out their information to get a quote or to contact sales, started there. And then we just kind of work backwards. The information pages that fed that,

00;11;59;18 - 00;12;01;13
Brian Massey
all the way back to the home page.

00;12;01;15 - 00;12;04;26
Brian Massey
So there were times where there was a pretty jarring,

00;12;04;26 - 00;12;17;22
Brian Massey
shift in, in brand. And we, we know that that is going to have an effect on people, but collecting the data seemed so valuable, and mitigating the risk was so valuable that they were willing to,

00;12;17;22 - 00;12;23;06
Brian Massey
give that experience for the short period of time that we were optimizing those pages.

00;12;23;08 - 00;12;25;15
Brian Massey
And this is just a trade off that,

00;12;25;15 - 00;12;26;14
Brian Massey
you have to,

00;12;26;14 - 00;12;28;02
Brian Massey
be comfortable with.

00;12;28;05 - 00;12;40;00
Craig Andrews
Yeah, they you've mentioned ab testing a few times, and for those that don't know or don't know it well, what what is AB testing.

00;12;40;03 - 00;12;41;20
Brian Massey
Yeah. And you know, the, the mistake

00;12;41;20 - 00;12;45;11
Brian Massey
frequently make is talking so much about AB tests.

00;12;45;11 - 00;13;12;13
Brian Massey
AB testing is where you have an idea for how to change the page. Something as simple as, say, changing the headline. Let's make the headline less conceptual and more functional. So from, the place where all your dreams come true, you say, change the headline to Disneyland is a place with great rides and a lot of fun.

00;13;12;15 - 00;13;16;15
Brian Massey
Something like that is you're going from a kind of a conceptual,

00;13;16;15 - 00;13;22;18
Brian Massey
headline to something that's tells them exactly what they're going to get on this page. You,

00;13;22;18 - 00;13;40;29
Brian Massey
either design another page with a different headline or using a B testing tool to make that change in real time when the visitor comes, and then you send the first person to the original, second person to the variation, and you go back and forth until you reach what we call just statistical significance.

00;13;41;01 - 00;13;50;15
Brian Massey
And when you have that, you can compare which one generated the most leads, generated the most sales, whatever you're trying to optimize in that. In that case, most calls,

00;13;50;15 - 00;14;05;05
Brian Massey
and that will tell you not only if the idea is better than the original, but we'll give you an idea for about how much you expect the conversion rate to go up, how many more people you expect to take advantage of that when you roll it out to the rest of the population?

00;14;05;07 - 00;14;11;02
Brian Massey
So that's an AB test. It's like a clinical trial for the drug companies. Do you want to,

00;14;11;02 - 00;14;14;19
Brian Massey
isolate as many variables as you can so you know exactly what,

00;14;14;19 - 00;14;16;06
Brian Massey
cause the effect,

00;14;16;06 - 00;14;22;08
Brian Massey
and you just do this iteratively. So it's the best data we can collect. It's the most confidence that we can have that,

00;14;22;08 - 00;14;23;26
Brian Massey
a change is going to improve things.

00;14;23;26 - 00;14;38;21
Brian Massey
And it honestly really gamify is marketing because every week you're sitting down with the customer and seeing how your horse is running. You know, you don't test bad ideas, you test good ideas, you think they're going to improve things. And it's kind of fun to,

00;14;38;21 - 00;14;42;27
Brian Massey
place your bets and see how your horses run.

00;14;43;00 - 00;15;05;02
Craig Andrews
Well, and I think back to, you know, the situation where, you know, you launch a web project and all of a sudden the all the web experts in the company, you know, emerge. And one of them is like, well, my, my other Ethel said, you know, she wants to see this on the website. Well, that that could actually be something that you test, you know.

00;15;05;02 - 00;15;19;02
Craig Andrews
So and Ethel's idea of what should be on the website could go into a hypothesis, but Ethel isn't the one that's ultimately going to determine it. It's but it's maybe a place for generating ideas to test. Yeah.

00;15;19;04 - 00;15;28;04
Brian Massey
Well, and Ethel may be spookily intuitive, so you don't want to excuse me? Don't want to lose the ideas, but the the entire process,

00;15;28;04 - 00;15;30;08
Brian Massey
becomes an opportunity for,

00;15;30;08 - 00;15;31;15
Brian Massey
ideas. And,

00;15;31;15 - 00;15;35;03
Brian Massey
so you're, you're collecting these ideas, and then you're going and doing some research,

00;15;35;03 - 00;15;46;08
Brian Massey
looking at the analytics, looking at heatmap reports that tell you where people are clicking on where their mouse is moving or how far they're scrolling on a page that you're trying to improve.

00;15;46;10 - 00;16;00;23
Brian Massey
And so, you know, some evidence that this idea might actually make a difference. Sometimes you have enough evidence and you say, like, yeah, let's just change it. Sometimes you have enough evidence. You're like, nope, nobody cares about that. You might want to change the call to action on a button. And,

00;16;00;23 - 00;16;03;28
Brian Massey
you go and look at it, it's like, no, almost everybody's clicking on that button.

00;16;03;28 - 00;16;11;25
Brian Massey
We we don't really need to improve that. Let's do something else. So when everybody somebody pokes their head in and says,

00;16;11;25 - 00;16;17;23
Brian Massey
hey, I have this idea on a competitor site, we should do that. And that person signs your paychecks. The,

00;16;17;23 - 00;16;25;06
Brian Massey
the intuition is to like, oh, let's test that next, because the boss said, well, if you've got a system in place, you can say, that's a great idea.

00;16;25;06 - 00;16;28;26
Brian Massey
I'll add that to our hypothesis list. I'll do the research and,

00;16;28;26 - 00;16;39;12
Brian Massey
we will schedule that in as appropriate. They feel heard and they're not able to jump in there and kind of disrupt what you're what you're exploring with your experiments.

00;16;39;12 - 00;16;41;23
Brian Massey
That particular month.

00;16;41;26 - 00;16;50;04
Craig Andrews
Well, and what I've found in things I've tested is I'm not always really good at,

00;16;50;04 - 00;17;09;12
Craig Andrews
knowing the winner, I, you know, there there's again what you said. There's kind of an educated guess based on what we know about marketing, but between, let's say, 3 or 4 good ideas, I found that I'm often surprised by when it ends up winning.

00;17;09;14 - 00;17;29;13
Brian Massey
It's a very humbling thing, these beautiful designs that you're so proud and like, oh, the client's gonna be so happy with this. I know this is going to win. And then those crazy visitors have a different opinion and it doesn't. It doesn't improve anything. Or worse, reduces the conversion rate.

00;17;29;16 - 00;17;38;18
Craig Andrews
Yeah. You know, a group of marketers I've always felt sad for and this is before the internet, you know, 1984 when,

00;17;38;18 - 00;17;40;13
Craig Andrews
when Coke went,

00;17;40;13 - 00;17;41;22
Craig Andrews
rolled out New Coke.

00;17;43;01 - 00;17;55;21
Craig Andrews
You know how many people they tested that on? 2000, 200,000. It's a massive sample. And 200,000 people led them to the wrong answer.

00;17;55;23 - 00;18;17;22
Brian Massey
Yeah. Well, speculation is that that's because they design it. It's a poorly designed test because people don't drink Coke in little sippy cups. So the experience of tasting it negated, you know, the kind of the can and like so that the hypothesis is that that was,

00;18;17;22 - 00;18;22;00
Brian Massey
a missed opportunity because they poorly designed this the taste test.

00;18;22;03 - 00;18;22;27
Craig Andrews
You know.

00;18;22;29 - 00;18;36;17
Brian Massey
If you're sipping than something that is sweeter or less sweet, I don't remember I think it was less sweet. Might be preferable. But when you're guzzling, it can, like you apparently want classic Coke one.

00;18;36;17 - 00;18;48;06
Craig Andrews
I think there was also an element of nostalgia there. You know, there is a little bit hard to test, you know, when you're sitting there drinking a Coke and it reminds you of when granddad took you fishing for the first time.

00;18;49;14 - 00;18;55;00
Craig Andrews
That's really what you're buying is the experience of reliving that memory. You know with granddad.

00;18;56;15 - 00;18;59;06
Craig Andrews
And so I took that memory away.

00;18;59;08 - 00;19;04;04
Brian Massey
Yeah. I have a, I have a memory of that with a fast food chain and

00;19;04;04 - 00;19;24;13
Brian Massey
that memory still to this day when I was, when I was a kid and to this day I still go to that fast food joint because of that memory. It's very powerful and measurable. That's the beauty of these AB tests. As you begin to detect these effects in, the experiments.

00;19;24;15 - 00;19;27;21
Craig Andrews
You know, I was talking to somebody literally yesterday.

00;19;27;21 - 00;19;48;14
Craig Andrews
They have, you know, they had these different personality tests, Myers-Briggs and in gram desk and all that, and they have a new test that they believe is better. And I, Thomas, a guy's your biggest hurdle. I believe, is going to be overcoming the emotions of somebody who's done one of these other tests before.

00;19;48;16 - 00;19;58;00
Craig Andrews
Because, you know, for me, the first test was Myers-Briggs, and it was the first time I took a test that made me feel understood.

00;19;59;21 - 00;20;15;20
Craig Andrews
I feel understood because I did this Myers-Briggs. I said, that's a powerful emotion. You got to realize what you're fighting against. You're fighting against this emotion. They have a special affinity to that other test.

00;20;15;22 - 00;20;18;03
Brian Massey
Interesting. You mentioned that we have a, we have a client that

00;20;18;03 - 00;20;20;01
Brian Massey
runs their, their business on

00;20;20;01 - 00;20;23;24
Brian Massey
the Enneagram like, you know, it's personal and stuff like that. And

00;20;23;24 - 00;20;39;04
Brian Massey
what's really interesting is that they understand the Enneagram. So when we're talking about rewriting copy on their website, the language models, the generative AI, the chat, GPT or the world also understand the Enneagram.

00;20;39;06 - 00;20;41;27
Brian Massey
So it becomes a model for us to,

00;20;41;27 - 00;20;46;23
Brian Massey
speak with the language models and tell them what we're looking for. We're looking for someone we want to test,

00;20;46;23 - 00;20;47;08
Brian Massey
a very,

00;20;47;08 - 00;20;49;25
Brian Massey
aggressive type A personality against,

00;20;49;25 - 00;20;52;27
Brian Massey
calmer, more, humanist.

00;20;52;27 - 00;21;00;03
Brian Massey
Model. And we can consistently have the, the, language models give us variations that match those personalities.

00;21;00;03 - 00;21;02;12
Brian Massey
It's very powerful.

00;21;02;15 - 00;21;14;04
Craig Andrews
Now. Yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting tools, you know, another test. Another famous test that almost led to the wrong decision. Have you ever seen the video?

00;21;14;04 - 00;21;15;24
Craig Andrews
The focus group. That focus group?

00;21;15;24 - 00;21;19;04
Craig Andrews
Apple's 1984 commercial.

00;21;19;06 - 00;21;21;20
Brian Massey
I have not seen that.

00;21;21;23 - 00;21;25;24
Craig Andrews
It was a disaster. The focus group flunked it. They thought it was

00;21;25;24 - 00;21;38;02
Craig Andrews
horrible commercial. The Apple board of directors got the results. They pulled the funding on the on the ad. And the only reason that ad ever ran was because Steve Jobs was Steve Jobs.

00;21;38;02 - 00;21;51;09
Craig Andrews
Yeah, I was him and was meeting in front of the board, and the board pulled funding and Steve looks at Y's and says, hey, I'll pay for half if you'll pay for half was like, sure.

00;21;51;11 - 00;22;15;20
Craig Andrews
And he looks at the board and he does a classic jobs move. And he's like, guys, we're running this ad. The choice you have right now is to be forever remembered as the people who supported this, or the people that didn't have the wisdom to realize this is powerful. And and he basically bullied the board into funding the ad and, and but the, the, you know, the testing,

00;22;15;20 - 00;22;25;14
Craig Andrews
you know, the they had they again, they put money to testing and the testing led them wrong.

00;22;25;14 - 00;22;29;03
Craig Andrews
And I'm not comparing that testing with the testing you're doing.

00;22;29;03 - 00;22;36;17
Craig Andrews
The focus group testing, I think focus groups end up leaving, leading a lot of companies to make bad decisions.

00;22;36;20 - 00;22;43;16
Brian Massey
And so, you know, any time you're dealing with data, you know, you don't want to you want to score it. So a small group of people,

00;22;43;16 - 00;22;52;17
Brian Massey
that know they're being asked, you know, they're being tested, that, you know, are aware that you're looking for their opinion.

00;22;52;17 - 00;22;55;00
Brian Massey
There's a human element that comes into it.

00;22;55;00 - 00;23;02;00
Brian Massey
And we're social animals. So we number one, we want to give you the answer that we think you want. We want to be nice. So you will,

00;23;02;00 - 00;23;11;20
Brian Massey
you know, kind of signal the sorts of answers that you want. And we'll pick up on that and we'll change what we think based on what we think. You want us to think.

00;23;11;23 - 00;23;17;00
Brian Massey
And so excuse it. And if we have a feeling about something,

00;23;17;00 - 00;23;23;12
Brian Massey
our preference will make up a story. It's like, oh, I like the way this was laid out. And,

00;23;23;12 - 00;23;26;17
Brian Massey
the color scheme was more professional and,

00;23;26;17 - 00;23;34;21
Brian Massey
etc., etc. but the real reason was because the red reminded me of the blanket that my grandmother used to snuggle me up in when I was a kid.

00;23;34;23 - 00;23;38;01
Brian Massey
So focus groups are great for,

00;23;38;01 - 00;23;40;13
Brian Massey
understanding the language that people use,

00;23;40;13 - 00;23;45;22
Brian Massey
when they're talking about your product, but is not usually good for,

00;23;45;22 - 00;23;46;12
Brian Massey
getting,

00;23;46;12 - 00;23;55;13
Brian Massey
strict statistical confidence that what you have is a good idea. Yeah. And I would also argue the focus group for that commercial.

00;23;55;13 - 00;24;08;02
Brian Massey
Do they know that it actually was the source of increased sales, or was the the purpose of the commercial really to establish their brand identity, which we did a fantastic job of?

00;24;08;05 - 00;24;08;13
Brian Massey
Yeah.

00;24;08;13 - 00;24;18;18
Brian Massey
I mean, not having pre sales and, you know, the focus groups actually may have been accurate. It's just the people running the focus group were testing for the wrong thing. Like.

00;24;18;21 - 00;24;26;22
Craig Andrews
You know when you said that what test groups always this in how you said. But I believe it's what you were saying is the people in

00;24;26;22 - 00;24;34;03
Craig Andrews
test groups, they weren't please. The tester, any time you're testing someone, they won't feel like they're passing the test.

00;24;34;05 - 00;24;35;01
Brian Massey
Exactly.

00;24;35;03 - 00;24;37;08
Craig Andrews
And I used that years ago.

00;24;37;08 - 00;24;42;04
Craig Andrews
We had a financial advisor as a client, and we found out,

00;24;42;04 - 00;24;54;02
Craig Andrews
somebody just mentioned this in casual conversation that their chief investment officer used to be a gambler. I'm like, oh, boy. And he was already fascinating because he was a,

00;24;54;02 - 00;25;04;04
Craig Andrews
computer science major dressed like a computer science major. Guy's haircut where computer science majors got their haircut, went to the same gym where computer science majors didn't work out.

00;25;04;07 - 00;25;04;23
Craig Andrews
And,

00;25;04;23 - 00;25;08;06
Craig Andrews
and so it was, you know, very interesting character anyway. And,

00;25;08;06 - 00;25;15;05
Craig Andrews
I went back the next week and said, hey, we'd like to change your About Us page. And they're like, oh, that's good. Yeah. How about it? And,

00;25;15;05 - 00;25;19;04
Craig Andrews
so I actually have a draft of what we want to put up there. And it was a story.

00;25;19;29 - 00;25;25;27
Craig Andrews
It was a story in kind of three acts. And they read through it and they said, you know, we really like this.

00;25;25;27 - 00;25;28;26
Craig Andrews
We'd like you to remove one thing.

00;25;28;26 - 00;25;37;24
Craig Andrews
Can you check out this bit about him being a gambler? As I said, we could, but that's going to remove the biggest trust building element of the story.

00;25;37;26 - 00;25;46;15
Craig Andrews
And so, you know, we go through expected conversation. Well, you know, I don't think you understand our clients and I, I do and,

00;25;46;15 - 00;25;58;02
Craig Andrews
I think this young lady, Talia, speaks up and she says, Craig, do you have a way of testing it? And I kind of paused and I thought about it. It's like, yeah, I think I do.

00;25;58;04 - 00;25;59;05
Craig Andrews
So,

00;25;59;05 - 00;25;59;28
Craig Andrews
well,

00;25;59;28 - 00;26;01;05
Craig Andrews
what was that website?

00;26;01;05 - 00;26;03;07
Craig Andrews
Usability.

00;26;03;07 - 00;26;11;03
Craig Andrews
It was usability hub. Yeah, I think so is where you would send users to the website and you would,

00;26;11;03 - 00;26;16;22
Craig Andrews
you would have them, you would give them a list of tasks because that's what usability testing is, is task completion.

00;26;16;25 - 00;26;19;01
Brian Massey
Probably user testing and where you're like.

00;26;19;03 - 00;26;24;24
Craig Andrews
Yeah, that's it, that's it. And I had a whole bunch of credits on that. And so,

00;26;24;24 - 00;26;36;23
Craig Andrews
and so I thought, well, let me go ahead and use this, but let me create some decoys because people want them. People think they're being tested on something. So I had them read,

00;26;36;23 - 00;26;42;09
Craig Andrews
the About Us page and tell them you're going to read this page, and then we're going to ask you some questions on it.

00;26;42;12 - 00;26;48;19
Craig Andrews
I wanted them to think we were testing on retention. My only goal was to make sure they read every word on that page

00;26;48;19 - 00;27;10;19
Craig Andrews
that missed the bit about gambling. And to your point about test construction, unfortunately, I just batched out a few tests and it came back and I realized people felt rushed by the cameras. So I had to revise the test to say, turn off your camera, take all the time you need to read this, because we're going to ask you some questions about what's on this page.

00;27;11;15 - 00;27;22;24
Craig Andrews
And so I revised the test, batched out some more tests and we made them think we were testing them when we you know retention or you know what they understood about that. And

00;27;22;24 - 00;27;30;12
Craig Andrews
when they came back we asked them to list the three things that stood out to them. What about that which we cared about a little bit?

00;27;30;15 - 00;27;40;03
Craig Andrews
Then we had them do a whole bunch of other tasks that we didn't care about at all. Those were red herrings. And then we came back and said,

00;27;40;03 - 00;27;52;07
Craig Andrews
okay, based on what you've seen, what are the greatest strengths and the greatest weaknesses of this company? And absolutely nobody said anything about the gambling.

00;27;52;10 - 00;27;54;09
Brian Massey
And one more interesting.

00;27;54;11 - 00;27;55;26
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah.

00;27;55;26 - 00;28;14;20
Craig Andrews
Back when we were asking, what are the top three things you remember from the story? We had one person giggling as she was talking about how he used to be a gambler. And when we were reviewing the results with my kind of paused the the video, I said, guys, what you just saw was delight.

00;28;15;16 - 00;28;22;23
Craig Andrews
This copy delighted your audience and you know and that's creating an emotional bond. That's, that's going to make you money.

00;28;24;01 - 00;28;30;21
Craig Andrews
And it did it. You know we tripled their revenue in 18 months. They bought by tens of millions of dollars.

00;28;30;28 - 00;28;34;13
Brian Massey
Yeah I assume it wasn't just that that change now.

00;28;34;16 - 00;28;37;27
Craig Andrews
Yeah. There was something going on. Yeah.

00;28;38;00 - 00;28;43;16
Brian Massey
But yeah I mean the the you know the tool you're talking about is you know, online focus groups.

00;28;43;16 - 00;28;58;23
Brian Massey
And the, the beauty of those is like, if you've got a couple design ideas, you don't have to take them all to a B tests. You can provision, you know, 25 or 50 people to look at the two and ask them questions about the designs.

00;28;58;23 - 00;29;16;27
Brian Massey
But to your point, you need to make sure you're not tipping them off about what you want them to pay attention to. But it's just a great way to to narrow things down. It takes about an afternoon for them to run. It's a buck or two a person. It's not expensive. I don't know why we're not doing more of that.

00;29;16;29 - 00;29;30;00
Craig Andrews
Yeah, you know what? I know from myself? Just because I know I have my own biases. I always trust the users more than I trust me.

00;29;30;02 - 00;29;38;02
Brian Massey
And that's a lesson that is usually hard won in this business. Like, oh, because you trust yourself, right? And over time you're like,

00;29;38;02 - 00;29;48;07
Brian Massey
I really I don't, I don't trust myself anymore because I keep losing. Yeah.

00;29;48;10 - 00;29;51;05
Craig Andrews
So the one thing that's changed,

00;29;51;05 - 00;30;06;26
Craig Andrews
over this time is I mean in the last few years, last was it been two years, three years since they rolled out ChatGPT. I mean, machine learning has been out there for over a decade. Money generative AI has has come out and,

00;30;06;26 - 00;30;09;05
Craig Andrews
some of it's gotten a little bit overblown.

00;30;09;05 - 00;30;35;14
Craig Andrews
You know, when I was buying a new mouse, they had a a AI version, which just meant that there was a little button in the middle that you could click, and I would pull up a menu that would do something, and you could. It turns out this mouse that was like 20 bucks cheaper, I could program one of the other buttons to do the same thing that there's there's some goofiness out there about AI, but there's some real applications where generative AI is changing things.

00;30;35;18 - 00;30;38;04
Craig Andrews
What changes are you seeing?

00;30;38;07 - 00;30;41;05
Brian Massey
What changes am I not seeing?

00;30;41;05 - 00;30;49;22
Brian Massey
You know, I was I started my first company in the 90s and 95 when the internet was really exciting.

00;30;49;22 - 00;30;56;06
Brian Massey
And we know that there going to be people needing applications online, and we had some unique capabilities and stuff. So,

00;30;56;06 - 00;30;57;07
Brian Massey
but, you know, that was,

00;30;57;07 - 00;31;02;07
Brian Massey
you know, on a ten year journey, you know, first the, you know, the big hype,

00;31;02;07 - 00;31;13;02
Brian Massey
cycle and the.com bust in 2000, which actually does closing the business because several of our clients got hit by that.

00;31;13;04 - 00;31;15;01
Brian Massey
But so and then,

00;31;15;01 - 00;31;22;08
Brian Massey
you know, the beginning of this century, I was spending a lot of time building websites for mostly B2B technology companies and,

00;31;22;08 - 00;31;23;15
Brian Massey
starting to introduce,

00;31;23;15 - 00;31;27;02
Brian Massey
analytics so that we knew what was working, what wasn't working.

00;31;27;02 - 00;31;31;03
Brian Massey
But, you know, it was 20 years before,

00;31;31;03 - 00;31;34;01
Brian Massey
the more mature internet that we know,

00;31;34;01 - 00;31;35;16
Brian Massey
came about.

00;31;35;18 - 00;31;43;26
Brian Massey
It's happening so fast. And I and honestly, I think I was going to be a bigger change, a bigger impact on us than the internet,

00;31;43;26 - 00;31;46;21
Brian Massey
which people find amazing to hear. But,

00;31;46;21 - 00;31;48;13
Brian Massey
I think it's true. I think it's going to,

00;31;48;13 - 00;31;53;11
Brian Massey
not only change our, our the way we work and the way we live faster.

00;31;53;11 - 00;31;55;20
Brian Massey
It's going to change more.

00;31;55;22 - 00;31;59;18
Brian Massey
So it's a, it's a little bit terrifying,

00;31;59;18 - 00;32;01;01
Brian Massey
quite honestly.

00;32;01;01 - 00;32;16;09
Brian Massey
But if I was to give anybody advice, it's like, start learning how to prompt. Eventually the prompt will not be the most important thing you're going to be. You're going to have AI built into whatever you're doing, everything you're doing, and it's going to, you know, automatically make things better for you.

00;32;16;09 - 00;32;20;28
Brian Massey
But but right now, I think you need to understand how to prompt and how to,

00;32;20;28 - 00;32;22;00
Brian Massey
get an idea of,

00;32;22;00 - 00;32;26;28
Brian Massey
what the capabilities and shortcomings of these tools are.

00;32;27;00 - 00;32;40;25
Craig Andrews
You remember the old days of Google, where there was a skill and how you put in your search query into Google to get the the right result and, you know, we're we're we're going back a number of years where, you know.

00;32;40;25 - 00;32;42;21
Brian Massey
Before,

00;32;42;24 - 00;32;51;00
Craig Andrews
And before they started interpreting. You know what? I think Brian's really asking. Let me search, serve up these results, because I think this is what he's looking for.

00;32;51;02 - 00;33;07;20
Brian Massey
Yeah. And they were doing like, just like a basic string matching. I don't think it was ever quite that basic, but it was mostly matching words that appeared on page. So you had to be kind of clever about what synonyms you use, what variations you use. Yeah.

00;33;07;22 - 00;33;28;07
Craig Andrews
And I wonder if that's kind of what prompting is like now. It's kind of like the early days of Google you know prompts AI prompts are kind of where we were with the early days of Google. And like you're saying, you know, I, I would bet ten years from now the idea of having a carefully designed prompt will be obsolete.

00;33;28;09 - 00;33;31;26
Brian Massey
Well, and the obvious way to get good prompts is to,

00;33;31;26 - 00;33;41;29
Brian Massey
go to a ChatGPT ChatGPT or one of the language models and ask it to help you write a prompt. And then you take that prompt and you paste it into a new thread. And,

00;33;41;29 - 00;33;49;11
Brian Massey
so there's this circular capability that is, very helpful.

00;33;49;11 - 00;33;55;17
Brian Massey
But it's just an example of how many ways,

00;33;55;17 - 00;34;00;08
Brian Massey
these, these, GPT TS are going to change the way we work.

00;34;00;10 - 00;34;01;19
Craig Andrews
What about marketing?

00;34;01;19 - 00;34;10;29
Craig Andrews
You know, there's, you know, I see a range of things, you know, on one side where, you know, hey, we're turning the whole marketing department over to AI.

00;34;10;29 - 00;34;19;04
Craig Andrews
One, you know, let's see some things on the other, you know, the, the, the late adopters of. No, no, no, we're going to stick with what we know works.

00;34;21;16 - 00;34;26;28
Craig Andrews
How do you see AI impacting what we're doing in marketing?

00;34;27;01 - 00;34;31;19
Brian Massey
So I think first we're going to have the Lumiere effect.

00;34;31;19 - 00;34;35;08
Brian Massey
Dr. Davis coined this term, and that's where we're using new tools in,

00;34;35;08 - 00;34;37;20
Brian Massey
ways of doing old things.

00;34;37;20 - 00;34;42;23
Brian Massey
So, you know, now we're going to. Right. We're just having the language models,

00;34;42;23 - 00;34;47;21
Brian Massey
write articles for us, then use that to bang out on our, on our keyboards and things like that.

00;34;47;23 - 00;34;50;25
Brian Massey
The thing I'm, I'm excited about is,

00;34;50;25 - 00;34;59;21
Brian Massey
what we were talking about earlier. So one of the most important things on your website is the messaging is the language, the copy, the images.

00;34;59;21 - 00;35;16;01
Brian Massey
And we tend to have somebody in marketing write that for us. So it comes out in their voice, even though they might sprinkle some, some, brand voice things in there, or they've got a copywriter that they use consistently to provide that place that has, you know, developed that.

00;35;16;03 - 00;35;31;18
Brian Massey
But when you want to test and begin to understand, well, you know, kind of we tend to write in a very logical, methodical way. What if we added a little bit more emotion or storytelling to your earlier example?

00;35;31;18 - 00;35;38;25
Brian Massey
It is hard for a human to write differently than the way they write. So,

00;35;38;25 - 00;35;40;25
Brian Massey
the language models, as it turns out, don't care.

00;35;40;25 - 00;35;56;15
Brian Massey
They don't have this, this memory and all of these biases. And other than the stereotypes that they've been trained in that have been trained into them. And so you can tell them, you know, I want to write for Enneagram nine or Myers-Briggs in T,

00;35;56;15 - 00;36;01;27
Brian Massey
and they understand what that is because of all the researching and stuff that's been published on the web.

00;36;02;00 - 00;36;12;04
Brian Massey
This is very exciting because I can consistently deliver messaging in a different voice, which means I can test it, I can test it.

00;36;12;04 - 00;36;16;00
Brian Massey
Whereas that was always very hard. So that's very exciting.

00;36;16;00 - 00;36;19;03
Brian Massey
We are just starting to get into,

00;36;19;03 - 00;36;30;24
Brian Massey
being able to do analysis of our, our tests and even our analytics data so we can, number one, get the look at the insights that we typically search for.

00;36;30;24 - 00;36;33;27
Brian Massey
But the language models also,

00;36;33;27 - 00;36;50;26
Brian Massey
allow us to provide insights that we wouldn't have thought of. And so that's very exciting. The coding capabilities of these things are incredible. Just absolutely super accelerating. Anything that you want to do. So I think more of us are going to be,

00;36;50;26 - 00;36;58;23
Brian Massey
using code if not actually programing. And then there's all the, the content generation stuff.

00;36;58;26 - 00;37;05;17
Brian Massey
Don't go to junk or your favorite stop photography site and pull that picture of,

00;37;05;17 - 00;37;15;16
Brian Massey
diverse individuals smiling around a computer for your landing pages. Have ChatGPT, do something for you.

00;37;15;16 - 00;37;18;24
Brian Massey
I guess Dall-E or Midjourney have them

00;37;18;24 - 00;37;26;08
Brian Massey
that do something for you that moves your value proposition forward. Don't waste an image on a stock photo.

00;37;26;11 - 00;37;28;17
Brian Massey
Yeah. Style photos.

00;37;28;17 - 00;37;43;05
Brian Massey
And then the things that are really going to change, like there's going to be a killer app that everyone's going to use and that is going to change our culture. And I don't know what that is yet.

00;37;43;07 - 00;37;48;13
Craig Andrews
Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. You know, I think a lot of it's it's fine.

00;37;48;13 - 00;37;55;05
Craig Andrews
I see a lot of people who are still staying back from me. I was,

00;37;55;05 - 00;37;56;26
Craig Andrews
I'm in a mastermind group, but

00;37;56;26 - 00;38;09;13
Craig Andrews
not marketers, just different business owners. And we were talking yesterday, and I was trying to come up with some ideas for some GPT to do for, you know, do for clients.

00;38;09;13 - 00;38;37;18
Craig Andrews
Just to add some value. And, you know, what are some things that they would do. Well. And I went into the conversation and I didn't realize that I'd petrified them because as soon as they heard this, they're like, I'm not a computer science major. I don't understand this high tech stuff. And I'm like, guys, if you can have a conversation with somebody, you can use ChatGPT.

00;38;37;20 - 00;38;58;16
Craig Andrews
And, you know, I just think there's this fear of it. And and in terms of writing a GPT, I told you, I wrote one this morning. And I mean, it's wonderful because, you know, I, I've taken, you know, I took a C plus plus back in the day. And, you know, you get one thing wrong. You miss a common the code that just doesn't work.

00;38;58;19 - 00;39;10;14
Craig Andrews
Semicolon in the code doesn't work. And the nice thing about these GPT zwei program is just with natural language, you know, like, hey, I want you to do this.

00;39;10;16 - 00;39;16;23
Brian Massey
And then if you, you know, get an error, you're like, oh, and here's the error that came. Can you fix that? Yeah.

00;39;16;23 - 00;39;26;21
Brian Massey
And, you know, they'll they'll go back and say, oh, I should put a check in there for this, and then I'm going to go and change it everywhere that I needed to do that check, which just okay.

00;39;26;24 - 00;39;30;16
Brian Massey
Yeah, do that thing.

00;39;30;18 - 00;39;50;05
Craig Andrews
Yeah. I mean, as an example, we were talking about this earlier, the one that I wrote this morning. You know, when a lead comes in, you always have all this research and it can be kind of tedious. And it's like, you know, this seems like something GPT should do. And so I wrote a little GPT that, you know, can give it to clients.

00;39;50;05 - 00;39;51;01
Craig Andrews
They

00;39;51;01 - 00;39;58;16
Craig Andrews
and they that the GPT asks some three questions. What's their name? What's their email? What what was the,

00;39;58;16 - 00;40;02;06
Craig Andrews
the location of the IP address where they converted from?

00;40;03;09 - 00;40;14;23
Craig Andrews
And you give it those three bits of information, it just goes off and scours the web, comes back, says, I believe this is their LinkedIn page, believe this is their Facebook page. You know, here's an even looks at like,

00;40;14;23 - 00;40;34;25
Craig Andrews
when people register companies, it pulls up the phone number and the address where they had to, you know, register their company and just all sorts of things and like a summary of who they are and just boom, you know, answer three questions and that later you have all these answers.

00;40;34;28 - 00;40;36;15
Brian Massey
That's a good GPT two.

00;40;36;17 - 00;40;50;02
Craig Andrews
Yeah. But I think it's going to be hard. And for people are standing back and looking at all this AI stuff and say, well, I'll get into it later. I think we're already at later.

00;40;50;04 - 00;41;00;28
Brian Massey
Yeah. And, you know, the truth is that that capability is probably going to be built into your marketing automation system at some point. So you know, someone else will. We'll take care of that for you.

00;41;00;28 - 00;41;15;03
Brian Massey
Or your CRM, you know, whatever tool you're using to size up the quality and the qualification about, prospects. So for most of most of the most of us, it's just going to be built into the products.

00;41;15;03 - 00;41;18;05
Brian Massey
And so we aren't really going to have to do prompt engineering. Yeah.

00;41;18;05 - 00;41;18;28
Brian Massey
But,

00;41;18;28 - 00;41;30;11
Brian Massey
knowing how to knowing how to grade what it's telling you comes from, you know, having conversations with a chat, GPT and, and understanding what the limitations are. Yeah.

00;41;30;14 - 00;41;34;18
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And I'm using, you know, one of the top CRMs,

00;41;34;18 - 00;41;52;05
Craig Andrews
and it's, it's not quite at that point know now they have a little add on where you can buy something extra and, and we'll kind of fill that in. But I, I know their data source and I've been using it was a data source they acquired. And

00;41;52;05 - 00;41;53;11
Craig Andrews
it's not quite there yet.

00;41;53;11 - 00;41;56;25
Craig Andrews
But I think you're right. It's just going to continue to evolve.

00;41;56;27 - 00;41;57;22
Brian Massey
Yeah.

00;41;57;24 - 00;42;08;11
Craig Andrews
Now one thing I forgot to I meant to ask this earlier. And for those who are watching, they see what looks like probably a white sport coat, but it's not a sport coat.

00;42;08;14 - 00;42;11;01
Brian Massey
It is not. It's a lab coat.

00;42;11;04 - 00;42;17;11
Craig Andrews
So I've when you when I saw that you were wearing lab coats, I,

00;42;17;11 - 00;42;28;06
Craig Andrews
I was so envious. I was like, that is a genius idea. I hate that he got it first. I, I've always admired that, and I've always been pissed. I was like, crap.

00;42;28;06 - 00;42;32;13
Craig Andrews
That's such a smart idea. Why do you wear a lab coat?

00;42;32;15 - 00;42;35;04
Brian Massey
Well, I have a bit about that. And,

00;42;35;04 - 00;42;43;25
Brian Massey
it goes something like this. So there is an area of scientific research called enclosed cognition, and it's the,

00;42;43;25 - 00;42;44;15
Brian Massey
it's the

00;42;44;15 - 00;43;02;24
Brian Massey
systematic study of the effect of clothing on the wearer and the people around them. And they've studied the lab coat, and they found that if you take a group of people and put them in a lab coat and give them a cognitive test, they can score about 17% higher than a group of people wearing street clothes.

00;43;02;26 - 00;43;07;27
Brian Massey
So when I'm wearing the lab coat, I actually think I'm smarter than I really am.

00;43;07;27 - 00;43;11;03
Brian Massey
They obviously have studied uniforms, and,

00;43;11;03 - 00;43;12;22
Brian Massey
people wearing a lab coat will,

00;43;12;22 - 00;43;16;02
Brian Massey
be able to give direction to people, and,

00;43;16;02 - 00;43;23;17
Brian Massey
they will take it as an authoritative direction. So they trust, respect and will follow the rules of somebody wearing a lab coat.

00;43;23;19 - 00;43;32;19
Brian Massey
So not only do I think I'm smarter than I am, but that really I'm. You think I'm smarter than I really am, and this is that unfair advantage that we're trying to get with,

00;43;32;19 - 00;43;37;07
Brian Massey
behavioral science and testing and stuff that we're doing on the website. But,

00;43;37;07 - 00;43;39;11
Brian Massey
you know, when I walk out on stage, even today,

00;43;39;11 - 00;43;42;21
Brian Massey
I wear the lab coat, and I always feel this moment of,

00;43;42;21 - 00;43;47;23
Brian Massey
people are going to be just like, oh, this is sticky.

00;43;47;25 - 00;43;49;25
Brian Massey
But I had a I was at a conference,

00;43;49;25 - 00;43;51;11
Brian Massey
week before last, and,

00;43;51;11 - 00;44;01;22
Brian Massey
I was watching the presenter and at the end I went up and asked him a question, and he looked at me and said, you're the guy that wears the lab coat. And he told me the story that in 2012,

00;44;01;22 - 00;44;03;19
Brian Massey
I was presenting,

00;44;03;19 - 00;44;07;16
Brian Massey
and when I was presenting on, I was like, conversion optimization,

00;44;07;16 - 00;44;10;22
Brian Massey
opened his eyes and change the direction of his career.

00;44;10;22 - 00;44;11;01
Brian Massey
And,

00;44;11;01 - 00;44;15;13
Brian Massey
here we are 12 years later, and he's the one presenting, and I'm in the audience.

00;44;15;13 - 00;44;18;03
Brian Massey
You know, those kind of moments are,

00;44;18;03 - 00;44;33;07
Brian Massey
I just kind of. They're rare and, you know, think about how many thousands of people I present to and write for. There's not a lot of feedback, but it's such a good feeling to know that there are people out there that are hearing what you say and,

00;44;33;07 - 00;44;36;11
Brian Massey
doing things differently in their lives and in their businesses as a result.

00;44;36;13 - 00;44;39;27
Brian Massey
It's very gratifying for me. Yeah.

00;44;40;00 - 00;45;02;28
Craig Andrews
Well, and I think it's a reminder that even in AI, there's some principles that we need to understand, like the principle of authority gained by wearing a leg coat and looking for other ways of establishing authority. I think. You know, if you put me in one of the F1 cars that they take out to the, the track here in Austin, I'm not going to win the race.

00;45;03;27 - 00;45;24;27
Craig Andrews
You know, there's some skill, you know, you have the car and then you have the driver, and it takes both, you know, to win the race. And so I think whatever, everything good, anything goes with AI. I still think you need an experienced driver. That's driving it.

00;45;24;29 - 00;45;28;20
Brian Massey
Well, I don't know who to credit this for, but one of my favorite,

00;45;28;20 - 00;45;50;01
Brian Massey
lines is that if you're using ChatGPT in your business, in your job, and you don't like the results, then you're doing something wrong and you're not prompting it properly, because these tools are spectacular in their ability to, do research fast and help you narrow things down and your thought process.

00;45;50;04 - 00;45;53;10
Brian Massey
So do you need to be, there is some expertise involved?

00;45;53;10 - 00;46;15;19
Brian Massey
I tend to learn by just jumping in and and trying things, so that's my style. But there's plenty of training online now for how to do these, these, you know, prompting and eventually being able to connect pieces of your life into an assistant. It's going to be the agents that are really going to change the way,

00;46;15;19 - 00;46;16;05
Brian Massey
our lives.

00;46;16;05 - 00;46;24;28
Brian Massey
Right. So, yeah, I think you do need to know how to drive and know how to drive skillfully. Yeah.

00;46;24;28 - 00;46;27;22
Brian Massey
And get there soon. Don't wait.

00;46;27;25 - 00;46;35;13
Craig Andrews
Now, speaking of conferences, you just wrapped up an event called Conversion Live. And what was conversion life?

00;46;35;15 - 00;46;36;29
Brian Massey
Conversion live was,

00;46;36;29 - 00;46;43;09
Brian Massey
our attempt to answer this question both for us and, and for the people in our orbit.

00;46;43;09 - 00;46;50;24
Brian Massey
You know, we know a lot of really smart people have been doing this since 2007. And even before that,

00;46;50;24 - 00;46;59;17
Brian Massey
and so we wanted to gather these brilliant people together and ask the question. So the assumption is that 2024 was the last year that we could say, wait and see.

00;46;59;17 - 00;47;13;26
Brian Massey
2025 is like, this is going to be happening right now, or we're going to start falling behind very quickly. So ask them where the state of the art is in terms of what we can be using this year in our businesses,

00;47;13;26 - 00;47;25;10
Brian Massey
using any new technology, but the language models of AI, trans transforming so much that, a lot of our, a lot of our sessions are really focused on that.

00;47;25;12 - 00;47;25;29
Brian Massey
And then,

00;47;25;29 - 00;47;33;22
Brian Massey
we've got a track on career. So how do how does our career change as a, as a marketer or manager?

00;47;33;22 - 00;47;44;21
Brian Massey
With these new tools changing everything in our processes and workflows, that's what it's, it's primarily about. And incidentally, we're going to be taking all of the presentations,

00;47;44;21 - 00;47;48;20
Brian Massey
and dropping them into a language model so that,

00;47;48;20 - 00;47;54;22
Brian Massey
those that couldn't be there for the virtual conference can go back and ask this expert,

00;47;54;22 - 00;48;03;27
Brian Massey
what, what happened in that specific questions and let it take you to specific places in presentations that answer questions you have.

00;48;03;29 - 00;48;08;06
Brian Massey
So I don't have to sit and watch all of the, sessions.

00;48;08;06 - 00;48;13;17
Brian Massey
It's already been digested. Yeah. And I'm really excited about this. This use of AI.

00;48;13;20 - 00;48;16;14
Craig Andrews
How do people find that content?

00;48;16;17 - 00;48;19;20
Brian Massey
Conversion live.com is where you can,

00;48;19;20 - 00;48;21;21
Brian Massey
you know, find out how to get access to,

00;48;21;21 - 00;48;22;13
Brian Massey
conversion.

00;48;22;13 - 00;48;24;28
Craig Andrews
Mind, I love that.

00;48;24;28 - 00;48;29;00
Craig Andrews
I thought that was such a cool idea when you mention it that the,

00;48;29;00 - 00;48;36;18
Craig Andrews
because I one of my terms descriptions of AI is is it's the great summarizer, you know,

00;48;36;18 - 00;48;54;25
Craig Andrews
of. If I don't want to read a whole document, I'll just say, hey, tell me what this says. What do I care about? And so I love that to be able to kind of use a, a large language model to kind pick through and search for the stuff that was meaningful from the conference.

00;48;54;28 - 00;48;56;24
Brian Massey
My favorite new application is,

00;48;56;24 - 00;49;02;02
Brian Massey
I got a new car, and so I took the owner's manual and dropped it into notebook. And Lem and,

00;49;02;02 - 00;49;14;24
Brian Massey
started asking questions about settings and things like that. And, I didn't have to read the whole manuals, and I, I just never would. It's just not the way I learned. So rather than looking at menus and dials and stuff,

00;49;14;24 - 00;49;20;25
Brian Massey
and I was able to get all my questions answered and, you know, a few minutes just amazing.

00;49;20;28 - 00;49;22;08
Brian Massey
That's cool.

00;49;22;10 - 00;49;26;00
Craig Andrews
Hey, Brian, how can people find you? How can they reach you?

00;49;26;02 - 00;49;33;05
Brian Massey
Everything that we're learning, we're writing about at Conversion sciences.com. And if you are interested in a team,

00;49;33;05 - 00;49;38;00
Brian Massey
to come in and turn your website into a high converting machine,

00;49;38;00 - 00;49;39;25
Brian Massey
happy to jump on the phone with you and you'll find,

00;49;39;25 - 00;49;42;23
Brian Massey
all the details about that there as well.

00;49;42;26 - 00;49;44;15
Craig Andrews
Well that's awesome. Thanks for sharing this.

00;49;44;15 - 00;49;47;28
Craig Andrews
Leaders and legacies.

00;49;48;00 - 00;49;59;19
Brian Massey
It's been a great conversation, as it always is. I didn't forget that we were recording because it just feels very natural. That's cool.

00;49;59;19 - 00;50;26;13
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Alize for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this

00;50;26;13 - 00;50;28;08
Craig Andrews
episode on social media.

00;50;28;10 - 00;50;51;20
Craig Andrews
Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or posted on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest, tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.

00;50;51;22 - 00;50;59;27
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe your thumbs up! Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.

00;50;59;27 - 00;53;02;04
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Alize for me.com. or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.