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Matt Dorman has been building digital platforms since 1995. On this episode of Leaders and Legacies, he shares how his experience coding for major brands like Time, J&J, and Fox News taught him a core truth: without strategy, a website is just decoration. Matt walks listeners through what separates successful sites from failures—and why leadership in tech means understanding both the code and the business behind it.

He discusses the critical elements of strategic planning, including audience segmentation, measuring success across editorial, revenue, and engagement, and how business owners can avoid the trap of “pretty but pointless” websites. Craig and Matt also dig into the current WordPress controversy, cutting through the drama to explain what really matters for business decision-makers.

From shaping narratives after 9/11 to leading Ndevr’s digital innovation today, Matt’s approach to leadership is built on clarity, adaptability, and service to mission.

Want to learn more about Matt Dorman's work? Check out their website at https://www.ndevr.io/.

Connect with Matt Dorman on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewdorman/.

Key Points with Timestamps

  • [00:00] Craig’s coma story & what it revealed about real leadership

  • [01:00] Introduction to Matt Dorman and the origin of Ndevr

  • [02:30] Growing up as an Army brat and influence of military discipline

  • [05:00] Witnessing 9/11 while working at Time for Kids and helping children process the event

  • [09:00] Why strategy should drive your website—not aesthetics

  • [11:00] Building sites for women’s lifestyle brands and the need for long-form content

  • [11:45] The three pillars of website success: revenue, engagement, editorial

  • [15:00] Mistakes SMBs make when measuring website success

  • [16:00] Why strategy should precede design and dev work

  • [18:00] Google Analytics, URL structure, and planning for data

  • [19:00] What’s really happening with WordPress and why it still matters

  • [22:00] Advice for business leaders choosing a CMS today

  • [23:15] Big brands using WordPress and why it's not going away

  • [24:30] Where to connect with Matt and learn more

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment of my career.

00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;10
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on the show.

00;00;51;19 - 00;01;11;08
Craig Andrews
Today I want to welcome Matt Dorman. He is the co-founder of endeavor, and it's spelled funny. That's Ndevr. And Ndevr is a technology services agency specializing in high scale digital platforms. You're probably wondering what that means. Largely websites.

00;01;11;08 - 00;01;16;05
Craig Andrews
He's built websites for brands like time, Johnson Johnson, Fox News,

00;01;16;05 - 00;01;22;15
Craig Andrews
and others. And he, bridges the gap between technical execution and business strategy.

00;01;22;18 - 00;01;32;16
Craig Andrews
Because if you do not have a strategy for your website, you're making a piece of art, not a business tool. That's my opinion. I'll see if,

00;01;32;16 - 00;01;34;22
Craig Andrews
Matt agrees with that in a minute.

00;01;34;22 - 00;01;37;23
Craig Andrews
He is a lifelong digital innovator. Matt started,

00;01;37;23 - 00;01;48;21
Craig Andrews
coding the moment he got an internet connection in 1995 and still doing it started off in the New York metro area, but is now in Colorado.

00;01;48;23 - 00;01;50;07
Craig Andrews
Matt, welcome.

00;01;50;09 - 00;01;53;27
Matt Dorman
Yeah. Thanks, Craig. Thanks for having me on. Great pronunciation of our,

00;01;53;27 - 00;01;59;23
Matt Dorman
our our company name with the lack of vowels. We saved a lot of money with that.

00;01;59;26 - 00;02;06;18
Craig Andrews
I bet I, I used to work for a guy that had no vowels in his name.

00;02;07;14 - 00;02;12;11
Craig Andrews
And, you know, customers would always ask, how do you pronounce his name? And

00;02;12;11 - 00;02;20;08
Craig Andrews
it was one of those names you couldn't look at when you pronounced it because it just, it didn't make any sense. It would hurt your brain. So you just had to kind of memorize it phonetically.

00;02;20;08 - 00;02;25;06
Matt Dorman
It would have too many, like N's and G's or something.

00;02;25;09 - 00;02;33;14
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So you were telling me something. You said you grew up, you were an Army brat growing up. So you lived all over the place?

00;02;33;17 - 00;02;34;09
Matt Dorman
Yeah, I did,

00;02;34;09 - 00;02;36;25
Matt Dorman
lucky enough to stay in the States.

00;02;36;25 - 00;02;39;19
Matt Dorman
It was actually my mom who re-enlisted.

00;02;39;19 - 00;02;45;00
Matt Dorman
And she went all over and plus the up the south. But I would go between my dad and my mom,

00;02;45;00 - 00;02;47;02
Matt Dorman
when she deployed out outside the US.

00;02;47;05 - 00;02;51;05
Craig Andrews
Wow. So what are some places that you've lived?

00;02;51;07 - 00;02;52;18
Matt Dorman
Yeah, I've lived in Texas.

00;02;52;18 - 00;02;54;09
Matt Dorman
I lived in,

00;02;54;09 - 00;03;00;10
Matt Dorman
Maryland for a little while, also to DC. I lived in Tennessee for quite a while.

00;03;00;10 - 00;03;15;03
Matt Dorman
And then back to my. My parents are actually from Washington state in North Idaho. So back and forth between there, of course, lived a lot of a lot of my time up there and then kind of moved to Georgia my senior year in high school, did that and then went to new Jersey,

00;03;15;03 - 00;03;16;11
Matt Dorman
for, for college.

00;03;16;13 - 00;03;25;29
Matt Dorman
So on my own. And then that's where I, I stayed there working until about ten years ago. We moved out to Colorado and Texas.

00;03;25;29 - 00;03;27;15
Craig Andrews
Where were you in Texas?

00;03;27;17 - 00;03;30;19
Matt Dorman
San Angelo. Oh, yeah.

00;03;30;22 - 00;03;32;15
Craig Andrews
I thought that was an Air Force base, though.

00;03;32;15 - 00;03;35;20
Matt Dorman
She was doing training. Exactly. Yeah, she was doing training.

00;03;35;20 - 00;03;42;11
Matt Dorman
There it came. Her the the Air Force base. And so she was. And she was at Fort Hood later, but I wasn't with her. I was in college by then.

00;03;42;13 - 00;03;45;02
Craig Andrews
Yeah. How about Maryland? Where were you in Maryland?

00;03;45;04 - 00;03;45;24
Matt Dorman
She was at,

00;03;45;24 - 00;03;46;06
Matt Dorman
the,

00;03;46;06 - 00;03;57;08
Matt Dorman
I'm I blanking on the name Fort Meade. As for me. Yep. Exactly. So we live in Laurel, Maryland. Which is right. Right in that area. Right outside of right between Baltimore and D.C..

00;03;57;10 - 00;04;00;19
Craig Andrews
So there's a a local term for those folks. And,

00;04;00;19 - 00;04;06;01
Craig Andrews
I'm inclined to ask, is she a spook? Meaning a spy?

00;04;06;04 - 00;04;06;23
Matt Dorman
So,

00;04;06;23 - 00;04;09;03
Matt Dorman
no,

00;04;09;03 - 00;04;11;22
Matt Dorman
she she what? She didn't do that very long.

00;04;11;22 - 00;04;15;04
Matt Dorman
I mean, she'd probably be a more interesting person to be on a podcast than me, and she,

00;04;15;04 - 00;04;17;13
Matt Dorman
she she went back into the Army,

00;04;17;13 - 00;04;21;02
Matt Dorman
at the time, and then she learned the she she learned Arabic,

00;04;21;02 - 00;04;22;15
Matt Dorman
with the Iraqi dialect.

00;04;22;15 - 00;04;22;22
Matt Dorman
Yeah.

00;04;22;22 - 00;04;25;28
Matt Dorman
She went there to probably listen to and and and do things. But,

00;04;25;28 - 00;04;27;22
Matt Dorman
her husband ended up getting stationed at

00;04;27;22 - 00;04;29;21
Matt Dorman
Fort Campbell, Kentucky.

00;04;29;21 - 00;04;35;07
Matt Dorman
And so she decided to get moved with him. And then she ended up in 101st,

00;04;35;07 - 00;04;42;23
Matt Dorman
air assault. And that was right before the first Gulf War. So lucky her. She was in 101st with,

00;04;42;23 - 00;04;46;18
Matt Dorman
Arabic and knowing the Iraqi dialect.

00;04;46;20 - 00;04;56;12
Matt Dorman
So she got, she got deployed to Saudi Arabia for a long time. I, she told me that she was camping in the desert because I was like an, I don't know, seventh grade then or something.

00;04;56;12 - 00;05;01;10
Matt Dorman
And, you know, she ended up getting deployed and got a halo into Baghdad.

00;05;01;13 - 00;05;06;26
Craig Andrews
Oh my goodness. Wow. Which being high, high altitude, low opening jump.

00;05;06;28 - 00;05;08;24
Matt Dorman
No, it wasn't a jump. It was a rappelling.

00;05;08;27 - 00;05;09;09
Craig Andrews
Rappelling.

00;05;09;13 - 00;05;14;04
Matt Dorman
Okay, 101st they come out of the helicopters and just rappelled down, I guess.

00;05;14;07 - 00;05;17;01
Craig Andrews
Wow. Yeah. You know, one person asked that,

00;05;17;01 - 00;05;28;24
Craig Andrews
you know, I met somebody here in Austin a few years back from Columbia, Maryland, and, you know, Columbia, I immediately assume Fort Meade and the NSA and what have you and asked them, I said,

00;05;28;24 - 00;05;30;22
Craig Andrews
you know, are you a a spook? And,

00;05;30;22 - 00;05;37;18
Craig Andrews
and he said, no, but I used to be and as a matter of fact, you probably have some of my malware on your computer.

00;05;37;21 - 00;05;39;12
Craig Andrews
So. So anyway,

00;05;39;12 - 00;05;41;23
Craig Andrews
so you you launched off and,

00;05;41;23 - 00;05;51;02
Craig Andrews
you landed in New York City. And one of the things I noticed was you were at time, like time magazine, right?

00;05;51;05 - 00;05;54;15
Matt Dorman
Yeah, I was it was actually so timing because I was a subbrand of time,

00;05;54;15 - 00;05;57;11
Matt Dorman
time for kids, which was their is their,

00;05;57;11 - 00;06;00;24
Matt Dorman
school publication for K to

00;06;00;24 - 00;06;09;14
Matt Dorman
I'm going to say like fifth grade now, so and then and then later work with Time.com, but also a lot of the other, they call them titles.

00;06;09;14 - 00;06;12;25
Matt Dorman
The digital brands one.

00;06;12;25 - 00;06;21;03
Craig Andrews
And the thing that stood out to me was you were there when 911 fit. So you're with a major publisher around a major event?

00;06;21;08 - 00;06;25;09
Matt Dorman
Yeah, yeah, I was I was there that day, walked in,

00;06;25;09 - 00;06;28;10
Matt Dorman
saw the towers in the morning and walked in and we were doing our thing.

00;06;28;10 - 00;06;31;28
Matt Dorman
Again, I was what, time for kids. So that made it even more interesting.

00;06;31;28 - 00;06;38;18
Matt Dorman
I didn't write or create content. I was just on the website, but I was helping the team create or they're creating content.

00;06;38;18 - 00;06;40;26
Matt Dorman
I was helping get content out to teachers,

00;06;40;26 - 00;06;42;16
Matt Dorman
that day and that week really,

00;06;42;16 - 00;06;46;24
Matt Dorman
so they could explain it to, to kids. Yeah.

00;06;46;26 - 00;06;50;10
Craig Andrews
Oh my goodness. What that feel like?

00;06;50;10 - 00;06;52;03
Matt Dorman
At the time, I mean, it was.

00;06;52;07 - 00;06;53;16
Craig Andrews
It was.

00;06;53;19 - 00;06;55;04
Matt Dorman
Surreal, I guess,

00;06;55;04 - 00;06;59;12
Matt Dorman
I mean, so close it was having to work that that week,

00;06;59;12 - 00;07;04;06
Matt Dorman
didn't really get to think about, I think what the rest of our country was probably thinking,

00;07;04;06 - 00;07;11;26
Matt Dorman
as much because we it was more about trying to get again, since we were working with the kids and teachers, I felt like it was somewhat of a purpose,

00;07;11;26 - 00;07;13;21
Matt Dorman
to help get that out.

00;07;13;24 - 00;07;17;06
Matt Dorman
And again, I wasn't creating content. I was just helping in any way I could,

00;07;17;06 - 00;07;22;00
Matt Dorman
update the website and, you know, get things up to date quickly that. But,

00;07;22;00 - 00;07;24;01
Matt Dorman
it was different that that day was pretty different to.

00;07;24;01 - 00;07;26;01
Matt Dorman
I do remember about kind of,

00;07;26;01 - 00;07;28;02
Matt Dorman
because we didn't leave right away, everything was shut down, but,

00;07;28;02 - 00;07;28;22
Matt Dorman
got to leave later.

00;07;28;22 - 00;07;33;11
Matt Dorman
And you can see when I left, I could see everything was down. So was just smoke and out of,

00;07;33;11 - 00;07;35;25
Matt Dorman
downtown.

00;07;35;28 - 00;07;51;27
Craig Andrews
Yeah. I mean, and, I mean, I just must have felt like an enormous responsibility, you know, that things just changed in their country in a way that, you know, I'm president, the biggest attack on American soil. And,

00;07;51;27 - 00;07;55;19
Craig Andrews
and your job was to make help kids make sense of things.

00;07;55;22 - 00;08;01;28
Matt Dorman
Yeah. A small part of I mean, I made I did a small part of that. I think that was my whole job. But,

00;08;01;28 - 00;08;06;24
Matt Dorman
it was hard to see at the time because it was just trying to get the work done,

00;08;06;24 - 00;08;10;11
Matt Dorman
as quick as possible. And it's kind of the first time I got to work from home.

00;08;10;14 - 00;08;11;22
Matt Dorman
Also,

00;08;11;22 - 00;08;15;16
Matt Dorman
didn't get to do it much later because there's some, you know, they they don't want to strain on the,

00;08;15;16 - 00;08;23;19
Matt Dorman
on the system to get people in and out if you didn't have to. So we were at work from home a bit for the next day or so.

00;08;23;21 - 00;08;27;06
Craig Andrews
Well. So,

00;08;27;06 - 00;08;43;09
Craig Andrews
you know something I mentioned in your intro, and it is that everybody knows they need a website, but I'm not convinced everybody knows why they need a website.

00;08;43;12 - 00;08;44;20
Matt Dorman
Yeah.

00;08;44;22 - 00;08;51;17
Craig Andrews
Yeah, it's it's kind of like one of these things where it's just kind of a checklist list item and,

00;08;51;17 - 00;08;59;01
Craig Andrews
And so, but I imagine, you know, some of the larger brands like time,

00;08;59;01 - 00;09;13;14
Craig Andrews
JNJ and Fox, they have a specific strategy. It's not just, hey, we're going to put something pretty up. And first off, I mean, let me ask you if you agree, if you're if your website does not have strategy behind it, you're just making art.

00;09;13;17 - 00;09;15;18
Craig Andrews
Is that would you agree or disagree.

00;09;15;21 - 00;09;34;06
Matt Dorman
That I agree to a point? I mean, I think there's like especially when you say everyone thinks they need a website and they don't really know. I think the reality is everyone does need a website. I mean, everyone to a certain level needs their contact info, their logo, their brand kind of a page, right? So if you just go with that, I think it's more than just art.

00;09;34;06 - 00;09;36;15
Matt Dorman
I think you're like, you're providing information.

00;09;36;15 - 00;09;43;14
Matt Dorman
I mean, Google doesn't really trust you without a website, email domain, things like that. So I think that's a baseline.

00;09;43;14 - 00;09;54;03
Matt Dorman
I think there are people that go from that into they don't have a strategy, so they just have a lot of stuff which art in one way or another, whether it's words or visuals.

00;09;54;05 - 00;10;02;25
Matt Dorman
I think you're right. I never thought of it that way, because I jump so far into the like. The sites that we build are all about information delivery.

00;10;02;25 - 00;10;09;18
Matt Dorman
On a constant basis, but that there's a full purpose and strategy to, to like, they have to have some kind of site,

00;10;09;18 - 00;10;10;21
Matt Dorman
and digital presence.

00;10;10;23 - 00;10;18;10
Craig Andrews
So what, what's, what's typical site that you're working on now? What's, what's its purpose. Who's who's consuming the content.

00;10;18;12 - 00;10;19;26
Matt Dorman
Yeah. Like I get to it's

00;10;19;26 - 00;10;32;17
Matt Dorman
I over the years and still even now, I work with a lot of women's lifestyle brands. Which isn't my typical content of of engaging. So. But it's similar where they're trying to deliver,

00;10;32;17 - 00;10;35;28
Matt Dorman
whether it's news, entertainment style,

00;10;35;28 - 00;10;36;24
Matt Dorman
things like that.

00;10;36;24 - 00;10;39;07
Matt Dorman
Current always,

00;10;39;07 - 00;10;48;00
Matt Dorman
to their audiences. So, you know, the website is one, you know, over the past X years has become one delivery mechanism.

00;10;48;02 - 00;10;57;14
Matt Dorman
But again, if they don't have that, the social brands like the social kind of sharing things don't really have effect for these types of brands.

00;10;57;14 - 00;11;02;23
Matt Dorman
A lot of things are changing as far as like different social kind of tools, whether it's,

00;11;02;23 - 00;11;16;14
Matt Dorman
you know, short clips of videos and things like that, you don't necessarily a lot of brands don't have a buy need, have a need of a website because they're just pumping out video shorts and, and things like that that are engaging their audience to buy something.

00;11;16;16 - 00;11;35;29
Matt Dorman
Typically. So, I think the brands that I get to work with and the types of content because they're trying to create longer form content is a bit different. So that requires some kind of website of like, you're going to go to someplace, what, no matter what device something and read something or watch a video that's going to be long form.

00;11;36;02 - 00;11;41;17
Craig Andrews
How do they measure success? How do they know when, when when you've done a good job?

00;11;41;19 - 00;11;59;08
Matt Dorman
Yeah. I mean, we work we kind of did some kind of self-reflection on this, of how we've been, how we've been helping people. And I think we realized that we have kind of three pillars. So and and they see it this way too, except if we're working with the ad salespeople, they're only dealing with revenue. So how much the site's making,

00;11;59;08 - 00;12;02;07
Matt Dorman
financially, typically they have an audience development team.

00;12;02;07 - 00;12;06;19
Matt Dorman
So they want to know that there's audience engagement and growth of the audience.

00;12;06;19 - 00;12;14;17
Matt Dorman
And then of course, the editorial, which, you know, if you ask any one of those three kind of groups, theirs is the most important.

00;12;14;17 - 00;12;17;13
Matt Dorman
And the reality is they they all support each other.

00;12;17;13 - 00;12;25;26
Matt Dorman
So those are the three that like if you measure them three together, you kind of get a better idea of like projection or, or forecasting,

00;12;25;26 - 00;12;34;19
Matt Dorman
versus like you can look at revenue at any given time and, you know, that's going to be good or bad, like growth over the last six months or quarters.

00;12;34;22 - 00;12;42;07
Matt Dorman
But it doesn't tell you, like, future stuff unless your audience is like either being paid to be there or is actual natural growth.

00;12;42;07 - 00;12;43;27
Matt Dorman
And you don't get the audience without the editorial.

00;12;43;27 - 00;12;47;22
Craig Andrews
So, yeah. You know, I,

00;12;47;22 - 00;12;53;02
Craig Andrews
there was one of the news websites I consume,

00;12;53;02 - 00;13;11;11
Craig Andrews
started intervening. I, I when I'm consuming news, I'm, I'm one brave with, you know, no cookies. I've got super locked down and they decided they didn't like my kind and they put up a thing saying, hey, you know, open up our, our our ads.

00;13;11;11 - 00;13;19;14
Craig Andrews
Our ads help pay for the content. Can you turn off your ad blocker? And I was like, no. And then they eventually just kind of blocked me and

00;13;19;14 - 00;13;22;06
Craig Andrews
then went back and I noticed all that, all that,

00;13;22;06 - 00;13;28;21
Craig Andrews
was gone. And it made me wonder. And did somebody come up with the idea of, hey, we're going to we're going to cut through.

00;13;28;21 - 00;13;29;29
Craig Andrews
These guys have,

00;13;29;29 - 00;13;40;20
Craig Andrews
you know, that have their ad blockers turned on. You know, we're just going to eliminate them. And if they discovered there was a secondary effect that they hadn't anticipated.

00;13;40;23 - 00;13;54;29
Matt Dorman
I mean, the technology is on that side of things is very interesting. Like, there's even so there's the ads, they can still get ads to you if you have ad blockers and they're they're special ads that get sold to people with ad blocking software.

00;13;54;29 - 00;13;56;16
Matt Dorman
It's less targeted.

00;13;56;16 - 00;14;07;03
Matt Dorman
But but they're, they're definitely ways and like you said, like a depending on the site, if they're their audience is the type of people that would create blocking soft software.

00;14;07;03 - 00;14;15;18
Matt Dorman
Then they have to create, you know, more paid content and actual like. So while you're not seeing pop up ads and ads taking over the screen all over the place,

00;14;15;18 - 00;14;18;09
Matt Dorman
you might be seeing more paid content,

00;14;18;09 - 00;14;21;04
Matt Dorman
on a site like that. And they open up their, their,

00;14;21;04 - 00;14;23;10
Matt Dorman
blocking of ad blockers.

00;14;23;12 - 00;14;29;19
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. And they do have, you know, they have a membership level. And so certain articles, you have to be a member,

00;14;29;19 - 00;14;31;01
Craig Andrews
to read them and

00;14;31;01 - 00;14;36;00
Craig Andrews
so I think kind of circling around about,

00;14;36;00 - 00;14;41;29
Craig Andrews
you know, when you're making a website, I feel that especially a lot of,

00;14;41;29 - 00;14;49;29
Craig Andrews
small and medium sized businesses, they're building a site because they know they need one.

00;14;49;29 - 00;14;58;11
Craig Andrews
They know that needs to be out there. But I feel like they they don't have a great strategy in terms of,

00;14;58;11 - 00;15;21;24
Craig Andrews
you know, if I asked them, you know, how are you going to measure success? You know, the, you know, the answers I would get would be, was it pretty or you know, that they may not say it that directly, but what ends up happening, what I've seen is they'll take their website to, you know, five of their best buddies and say, hey, look at my new website.

00;15;21;26 - 00;15;35;23
Craig Andrews
Yes. And if they're if their buddies like it, then the success. If their buddies don't like it, then you failed. And I don't know if that's the, you know, the best way of coming up with a website that's going to help grow your business.

00;15;35;23 - 00;15;44;23
Craig Andrews
What would you tell business owners that they need to think about as their, as they're thinking about their next website?

00;15;44;25 - 00;15;47;07
Matt Dorman
Yeah, I think it's important to,

00;15;47;07 - 00;15;52;21
Matt Dorman
and this is not pitching our services. Just engage. If you, if you're able to afford an any level,

00;15;52;21 - 00;15;56;00
Matt Dorman
like services of experts around that strategy,

00;15;56;00 - 00;16;02;12
Matt Dorman
whether it's content strategy or just digital strategy in general and getting that, that in place first,

00;16;02;12 - 00;16;04;16
Matt Dorman
is really like it's like anything else you're planning.

00;16;04;21 - 00;16;16;27
Matt Dorman
So if you don't plan for it, there's no you can't measure anything at that after that. So if your friend if five friends like it or like like you assume like they may not even buy your product in the first place.

00;16;16;27 - 00;16;20;10
Matt Dorman
You know, you might be asking me if I like the, the websites that I work on.

00;16;20;12 - 00;16;30;15
Matt Dorman
It's like, cool. I'm not a, you know, I'm not a female buying, you know, fashion shoes or something like that. So what does it matter if I like it visually?

00;16;30;15 - 00;16;33;06
Matt Dorman
But a person with a strategy mind,

00;16;33;06 - 00;16;37;24
Matt Dorman
can actually tell them, well, you either need to be getting people to get through to,

00;16;37;24 - 00;16;46;16
Matt Dorman
some type of a CTA and getting their contact information, you know, just engaging with the content, looking at more than one article,

00;16;46;16 - 00;16;52;01
Matt Dorman
or getting some kind of click through to some commerce thing and purchasing right.

00;16;52;04 - 00;17;03;12
Matt Dorman
Because those are the like there's no point in having a website if you don't have a financial. It's probably the other thing. Like, I guess there's blog, there's plenty of free blogs out there that just want to share their, their thoughts and ideas. That's great.

00;17;03;12 - 00;17;05;05
Matt Dorman
But if you're a company,

00;17;05;05 - 00;17;09;24
Matt Dorman
your goal is to increase revenue of some kind or awareness, right?

00;17;09;26 - 00;17;25;15
Matt Dorman
And that strategy can change over the years to like I've looked at, if I looked at our website over the years, like we build websites and the typical kind of cliche that, you know, we probably didn't do a great job of strategizing our website over, you know, over the not enough years we've been around,

00;17;25;15 - 00;17;31;11
Matt Dorman
you know, we built a great performing, you know, as far as speed and everything, but the actual content.

00;17;31;14 - 00;17;36;19
Matt Dorman
Not sure. We did a great job all the time. Because we just needed a website at one point.

00;17;36;21 - 00;17;38;23
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, you know,

00;17;38;23 - 00;18;08;23
Craig Andrews
one thing that I've seen, especially with the advent ga4, Google Analytics for is the to get meaningful data, to get meaningful analytics out of the website, even need to think about like the URL structure. You know, when you're when you're launching, you have to think about how are we going to structure our URLs so that we can, you know, categorize content, look at engagement on that type of content.

00;18;08;26 - 00;18;21;24
Craig Andrews
You know, and and there's so many things like that that just again, if if you have a financial mode of which most people are paying for a website, have a financial motive.

00;18;21;27 - 00;18;24;04
Matt Dorman
Right.

00;18;24;07 - 00;18;30;24
Craig Andrews
You got to tie it back to how do you make money? Yep.

00;18;30;26 - 00;18;33;06
Craig Andrews
So now,

00;18;33;06 - 00;18;41;06
Craig Andrews
here's an interesting topic. So I saw, are you working primarily in WordPress?

00;18;41;09 - 00;18;43;12
Matt Dorman
Yeah, yeah, that's what we focused on.

00;18;43;12 - 00;18;45;24
Matt Dorman
When we started the company.

00;18;45;27 - 00;18;50;04
Craig Andrews
So WordPress is an interesting spot right now. And,

00;18;50;04 - 00;18;58;27
Craig Andrews
how we for those for those that aren't, you know, in the know what's going on with WordPress and why does it matter?

00;18;58;29 - 00;19;05;19
Matt Dorman
I did say that there was nothing of, you could you could ask me anything you want. Yeah. It's a if people that don't know.

00;19;05;19 - 00;19;13;12
Matt Dorman
So WordPress is an open source project. Thousands, hundreds of thousand, potentially at any given time, people are contributing to the software package. Right.

00;19;13;12 - 00;19;25;03
Matt Dorman
It's it's overseen by a project lead and a company that that really oversees WordPress.com and really where shapes kind of the the roadmap in general, where it where it goes.

00;19;25;05 - 00;19;25;27
Matt Dorman
There's

00;19;25;27 - 00;19;33;21
Matt Dorman
some I mean, I'm not going to go too detailed only because of time, but there was some drama. Everyone calls it drama, WordPress drama.

00;19;33;21 - 00;19;34;22
Matt Dorman
Around the founder

00;19;34;22 - 00;19;40;11
Matt Dorman
of WordPress open up the conversation in a different way, I guess,

00;19;40;11 - 00;19;41;21
Matt Dorman
about a company that,

00;19;41;21 - 00;19;45;12
Matt Dorman
was has been receiving funding and that funding,

00;19;45;12 - 00;19;50;14
Matt Dorman
it's kind of pushed them away from kind of the open source ideals of what?

00;19;50;16 - 00;20;01;13
Matt Dorman
He's, he's requested larger companies do and even just the community in general would like larger companies to, to reinvest time and, and, and even money into another project.

00;20;01;13 - 00;20;11;24
Matt Dorman
You know, based on the numbers, I mean, that seems kind of accurate with what's been going on, but the drama side of things, I think people got,

00;20;11;24 - 00;20;12;18
Matt Dorman
overly excited.

00;20;12;18 - 00;20;13;18
Matt Dorman
I don't really know.

00;20;13;18 - 00;20;17;27
Matt Dorman
Because I don't know, the backstories and I haven't had conversations with is another Matt.

00;20;17;27 - 00;20;26;19
Matt Dorman
You know, I don't know him personally. I see I see what he posts and, you know, again, he founded the project, a project that's been great for a long time and a company that's actually helped,

00;20;26;19 - 00;20;33;06
Matt Dorman
and WordPress.com is a free, open source and free kind of way of publishing content.

00;20;33;09 - 00;20;40;09
Matt Dorman
So kind of mentioned, like if you're an author of some kind and just want to create your own content without paying for it, it's great.

00;20;40;09 - 00;20;45;17
Matt Dorman
On the, on the commercial side of things, and you get into a little bit messier kind of area,

00;20;45;17 - 00;20;47;12
Matt Dorman
on both sides, I would say.

00;20;47;15 - 00;20;54;19
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. And it's, you know, and the company that, you know, it's an Austin based company that the,

00;20;54;19 - 00;21;00;03
Craig Andrews
the dust ups happening. I think the thing that surprised me was when,

00;21;00;03 - 00;21;05;17
Craig Andrews
and I don't know how to say his name used to be, you know, used to work, you know, how,

00;21;05;17 - 00;21;07;24
Craig Andrews
you know, he,

00;21;07;24 - 00;21;10;07
Craig Andrews
it's just been interesting to see,

00;21;10;07 - 00;21;12;08
Craig Andrews
how lines have been drawn.

00;21;12;10 - 00;21;16;07
Craig Andrews
But I think the question that's kind of really interesting is,

00;21;16;07 - 00;21;25;09
Craig Andrews
what does that mean? What does that mean for businesses? You know, so for folks that are looking at moving over to WordPress,

00;21;25;09 - 00;21;27;12
Craig Andrews
what do they need to think about,

00;21;27;12 - 00;21;30;04
Craig Andrews
amidst all this brouhaha?

00;21;30;07 - 00;21;38;26
Matt Dorman
Yeah, I've seen I've seen plenty of people from other CMS vendors, mainly the commercial ones, like pitching this as the end of WordPress,

00;21;38;26 - 00;21;50;05
Matt Dorman
or things like that and that. And I don't see that even even outside of us being in WordPress that heavily like I've been in, I've worked with lots of CMS over the 28 years or so,

00;21;50;05 - 00;21;51;23
Matt Dorman
even before the masses were around.

00;21;51;23 - 00;22;09;24
Matt Dorman
Right. I, I think as a normal business owner, it just drama doesn't doesn't affect your decision making. I think the reality of if you're building a somewhat like a site that has needs some extra functionality outside of just publishing X number of pages and maybe a blog,

00;22;09;24 - 00;22;15;17
Matt Dorman
like those sites, there's real competition in like Wix and Squarespace and lots of other kind of,

00;22;15;17 - 00;22;22;28
Matt Dorman
self-hosted SAS kind of operations that are the real kind of threat, I guess, to, to WordPress.

00;22;23;01 - 00;22;24;18
Matt Dorman
On the low level stuff,

00;22;24;18 - 00;22;36;11
Matt Dorman
if you're dealing with a business that has something with some kind of e-commerce or and again, some of those actually have solutions for that, but are dealing with other commerce, platforms, WordPress is a good, good option.

00;22;36;11 - 00;22;42;26
Matt Dorman
Any open source solution is a really good option because it gives your team or some other team the ability to do anything you want.

00;22;42;28 - 00;23;02;02
Matt Dorman
And let's say WordPress does die. It's because someone else will be forcing it to do something different. And people like me, developers are going to be moving you off on to something else. And that's too far forward thinking. I think for like a business operator to be to be thinking about that technology, it's not like, am I using Microsoft products or Mac products?

00;23;02;02 - 00;23;05;23
Matt Dorman
And it's a total change. It's going to be just an incremental change.

00;23;05;23 - 00;23;08;27
Matt Dorman
If WordPress did docs, it would take a long time.

00;23;09;00 - 00;23;11;18
Craig Andrews
Well, it's it's got a huge install base.

00;23;11;18 - 00;23;15;13
Craig Andrews
And not just amongst little people or bloggers. Right.

00;23;15;13 - 00;23;18;11
Craig Andrews
What's what are some of the, where are some of the biggest,

00;23;18;11 - 00;23;21;12
Craig Andrews
companies, you know, that have their site on WordPress?

00;23;21;14 - 00;23;35;09
Matt Dorman
Yeah, every I mean, essentially any media publishing company. So any company that you're looking at looking at news, entertainment, right. Either they have it all on WordPress or they, they at least have one brand that they purchased over the years that's still on WordPress.

00;23;35;09 - 00;23;40;08
Matt Dorman
That's one area on a big kind of brand companies.

00;23;40;08 - 00;23;44;18
Matt Dorman
Like when Koch rebranded to tapestry, their corporate site was on WordPress.

00;23;44;21 - 00;23;47;16
Matt Dorman
That's a B2B type kind of site.

00;23;47;16 - 00;23;50;11
Matt Dorman
So a lot of, a lot of those types of sites have it,

00;23;50;11 - 00;23;57;21
Matt Dorman
you know, going back to my days, I was at Time.com, they were not on it then. They were just kind of moving on to it. But I was talking to them actually last week,

00;23;57;21 - 00;23;58;19
Matt Dorman
and I knew that they've been on it.

00;23;58;19 - 00;24;04;05
Matt Dorman
So they've been on WordPress for almost all the years that large publishers have been on it.

00;24;04;05 - 00;24;07;22
Matt Dorman
And, you know, they, they cut it up and they do certain things,

00;24;07;22 - 00;24;08;21
Matt Dorman
differently.

00;24;08;21 - 00;24;15;17
Matt Dorman
You know, you're not well, you could just download it, install it, and put a big media site on it. There's a lot of things that go into that the next steps.

00;24;15;17 - 00;24;23;29
Craig Andrews
So yeah. Yeah. And so I mean based on that, I think it's safe to say weren't WordPress in some forms probably sticking around for a while?

00;24;24;01 - 00;24;38;18
Matt Dorman
I think so, and I think that, you know, the even the drama between two companies, it'll work its way. It'll work itself out. I mean, I think both companies have really good aspects to them. I think both of them have obviously contributed in different ways to the project.

00;24;38;18 - 00;24;44;01
Matt Dorman
I'm sure there will be some light at the end of the tunnel drama.

00;24;44;03 - 00;24;47;25
Matt Dorman
I don't see any either one of them. Like bailing on WordPress.

00;24;47;25 - 00;24;49;19
Matt Dorman
I would, I can't imagine.

00;24;49;21 - 00;24;56;04
Craig Andrews
Yeah, well very cool. Well, well, Matt, how can people reach you?

00;24;56;06 - 00;25;02;01
Matt Dorman
Yeah, the best way. I mean, me personally, LinkedIn is a great way to to find me. I'm one of the few Matt Gormans,

00;25;02;01 - 00;25;04;16
Matt Dorman
that show my face and endeavor,

00;25;04;16 - 00;25;06;07
Matt Dorman
the misspellings of endeavor.

00;25;06;07 - 00;25;07;15
Matt Dorman
But endeavor.io

00;25;07;15 - 00;25;11;06
Matt Dorman
for the for the company. That's the best way to get get in touch with the company.

00;25;11;06 - 00;25;18;12
Matt Dorman
We have social channels, but, you know, we're we're we're more active on LinkedIn and coming through our website for sure.

00;25;18;14 - 00;25;28;18
Craig Andrews
And endeavor is endeavor.io IO. Okay. Well very cool Matt, thanks for sharing your your knowledge on leaders and legacies.

00;25;28;20 - 00;25;32;03
Matt Dorman
Yeah. Thanks so much.

00;25;32;03 - 00;25;58;27
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Alize for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this

00;25;58;27 - 00;26;00;24
Craig Andrews
episode on social media.

00;26;00;26 - 00;26;24;06
Craig Andrews
Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or posted on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest, tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.

00;26;24;08 - 00;26;32;13
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe your thumbs up! Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.

00;26;32;13 - 00;28;34;18
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Alize for me.com. or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.

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