Steve Thornton, Managing Partner at Apex Management, doesn’t just coach leaders—he builds leadership systems. In this episode, Steve walks through what most leaders get wrong and how to fix it. He explains why high performers often make poor leaders and what it takes to shift from doing to directing.

Steve also shares why companies stall out when their leadership bench isn’t deep and how to grow future leaders without adding complexity. Drawing from his work with mid-market firms, Steve gives actionable strategies to scale leadership across the organization.

If you're a founder, executive, or team lead trying to escape the burnout loop, this conversation gives you a roadmap. No fluff—just frameworks that drive results.

Want to learn more about Steve Thornton's work? Check out their website at https://www.apex-mgt.com.

Connect with Steve Thornton on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevethorntonmba/.

Key Points with Time Stamps

• 01:42 – Steve’s background and how Apex Management helps companies build strong leadership pipelines

• 05:15 – Why great individual contributors often struggle in leadership roles

• 09:30 – The myth of the “natural leader” and what actually makes someone lead well

• 14:50 – Steve’s three-part leadership framework: Clarity, Capacity, and Consistency

• 19:05 – Signs your company has a leadership gap—and what to do about it

• 23:40 – How to scale leadership without creating more meetings or red tape

• 29:10 – The one leadership habit Steve teaches every executive

• 34:20 – Why burnout is a leadership issue, not a personal one

• 38:00 – Final thoughts: Leadership is not a talent—it’s a system

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment in my career.

00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;10
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on this show.

00;00;51;10 - 00;01;03;26
Craig Andrews
Today I went welcome Steve Thornton. He is the founder of Apex Management Partners. Steve has worked in aerospace, space, defense, automotive, capital goods.

00;01;03;26 - 00;01;07;13
Craig Andrews
Oh, CTG, I forgot to look that up. We'll have to figure out what that is.

00;01;07;13 - 00;01;20;23
Craig Andrews
Power generation and other industrial markets. Now, Steve helps business leaders build the type of businesses where they turn the phone off when they go on vacation.

00;01;20;25 - 00;01;22;07
Craig Andrews
Steve, welcome.

00;01;22;09 - 00;01;25;10
Steve Thornton
Hey. Thank you. Craig. I appreciate you having me on.

00;01;25;10 - 00;01;37;16
Steve Thornton
I'll just share that. You know, we've had Apex management partners for six years now, and like every entrepreneur out there, you know, we've learned a lot. And, in our own journey. So,

00;01;37;16 - 00;01;41;25
Steve Thornton
being entrepreneur, you know, is that's a unique challenge we all face.

00;01;41;25 - 00;01;48;20
Steve Thornton
How do you go from from viability to fund where you actually making money to the point that.

00;01;48;22 - 00;01;53;24
Steve Thornton
Oh, boy, now things are getting out of control. My systems aren't good enough. How do I improve them?

00;01;53;24 - 00;01;58;15
Steve Thornton
And so forth. So we all go through a journey, and it's been a lot of fun.

00;01;58;18 - 00;02;08;20
Craig Andrews
You know, I was talking to somebody recently, and we'll cover a lot of this as we get into. But, you know, I was talking to somebody recently and he was talking about,

00;02;08;20 - 00;02;09;09
Craig Andrews
you know, how,

00;02;09;09 - 00;02;20;11
Craig Andrews
how bad as employees are, there's nobody that's stepping up, how his employees all come to him. Any time a decision needs to be made, even when they already know the answer.

00;02;20;14 - 00;02;21;06
Craig Andrews
And,

00;02;21;06 - 00;02;28;15
Craig Andrews
And this guy is in a mastermind group. You know, with me. So we're there to kind of,

00;02;28;15 - 00;02;43;27
Craig Andrews
speak the truth to people, and I, you know, I said, I'll just call him Joe. I said, Joe, if your employees are coming to you to ask permission to do something they already know to do, that's a Joe problem.

00;02;44;00 - 00;02;45;14
Craig Andrews
Absolutely.

00;02;45;16 - 00;02;53;05
Steve Thornton
It you know, it's it it's oftentimes, you know, and I don't know how long he's had his business year. Joe.

00;02;53;05 - 00;03;04;15
Steve Thornton
But a lot of times when you start a business, you end up hiring a lot of people that are doers, and then you ultimately you train them because you're asking them to do this. You're being very prescriptive.

00;03;04;18 - 00;03;12;09
Steve Thornton
Do write about do this, do that. So to all of a sudden expect them to see the light in change,

00;03;12;09 - 00;03;15;11
Steve Thornton
is a pretty unlikely situation.

00;03;15;13 - 00;03;16;15
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And, you know,

00;03;16;15 - 00;03;22;07
Craig Andrews
I think almost anybody I mean, except for the very well-endowed, you know, financially endowed,

00;03;22;07 - 00;03;27;12
Craig Andrews
you know, when you're starting the business, you know, you're wearing so many hats.

00;03;27;14 - 00;03;28;00
Steve Thornton
Right?

00;03;28;02 - 00;03;45;19
Craig Andrews
And, you know, you're sales, you're operations, you're development, you're customer support. You know, you've got all these different hats and it's, you know, it's really the challenge. And I'll be honest, I, I run into it myself.

00;03;45;19 - 00;03;55;07
Craig Andrews
Of kind of going through the list of things I'm doing and challenging myself, saying, Craig, do you need to be doing this project?

00;03;55;14 - 00;04;15;21
Craig Andrews
And I think that's kind of the first step, you know, do you need to be doing this? And then the next step is, okay, what are you doing to reach the day where sure, you can do it if you want, but there's someone else who not only can do it was expecting to do it.

00;04;15;23 - 00;04;34;09
Steve Thornton
Yeah, I think and honestly, I think that's a natural thing for all of us, right? You know, we all outsource certain things, but none of us outsource enough things. And and we're always looking at. But if I outsource it, I'm going to pay this much for it. Or if I outsource it, how do I know they can do the job as well as I do the job?

00;04;34;12 - 00;04;36;05
Steve Thornton
And so we get into this,

00;04;36;05 - 00;04;56;15
Steve Thornton
issue. But the only way for us to free ourselves is to come up with a plan on how we're going to transition ourselves out of doing the work, and so we can work on the business of in it so, so much and focused on do even if while you're in it am I working on the things that bring the most value?

00;04;56;18 - 00;04;59;13
Steve Thornton
Like for example, me doing general Ledger?

00;04;59;13 - 00;05;10;27
Steve Thornton
Transactions would not be a value add exercise. So under any circumstances. So that's the kind of thing that there are things that we just shouldn't be doing, we need to find a source for. And,

00;05;10;27 - 00;05;13;27
Steve Thornton
you know, and that's a challenge we all face as we go through that.

00;05;13;29 - 00;05;32;25
Craig Andrews
So I gave you a very limited scope. I gave you this situation where Joe has employees that are able to make decisions. They have all the knowledge, they have all the training to make the decisions, but they won't make them and they will bring them to Joe for his approval, you know. And you don't know anything else other than that.

00;05;32;25 - 00;05;39;06
Craig Andrews
But I'm sure you've seen this before. What's your best guess of what's going on in this situation?

00;05;39;08 - 00;05;55;17
Steve Thornton
Well, my guess is Joe's always made the decision. So that's why the people expect him to make the decision. They don't feel comfortable stepping up and taking the decision. Or. And some people are opposed to taking decisions anyway. Sometimes it's in their DNA.

00;05;55;17 - 00;06;04;26
Steve Thornton
So to address that, for Joe to change that, Joe is going to have to make sure it's clear to them, look, I want you to make these.

00;06;04;29 - 00;06;15;25
Steve Thornton
He's going to have to define what decision making is within their scope that he expects them to do, and they shouldn't be coming to him for any trust. Them to make. And,

00;06;15;25 - 00;06;27;26
Steve Thornton
and that delegation is going to have to be pretty clear. It can't just be a casual conversation. It's going to be predefined in pretty laid out form, because people, especially if they're nervous about it,

00;06;27;26 - 00;06;30;15
Steve Thornton
they'll try to act like they didn't understand the scope fully.

00;06;30;15 - 00;06;36;01
Steve Thornton
They'll, you know, things like that will happen. So, you know, it's going to have to be a pretty deliberate process,

00;06;36;01 - 00;06;53;02
Steve Thornton
to work through that delegation. And, you know, and the other thing may be, yeah, it could just be, hey, I need to change. He's not just going to change, Joe, because if Joe goes out there and starts making those decisions after delegating it, then they're not going to believe that he ever delegated in the first place.

00;06;53;04 - 00;06;58;24
Craig Andrews
That's you know, that's a really interesting point. Explain that. What what's going on in that situation.

00;06;58;27 - 00;07;05;00
Steve Thornton
So a lot of times what'll happen is, you know, I'm I it was I'll pick on me. I if I had people,

00;07;05;00 - 00;07;26;17
Steve Thornton
in an organization and I'm a delegate to Georgia. Okay. George, you're managing this supply function or whatever the function might be. You're leading this operational thing. If I go in and start making decisions after delegating it to him or her, if I start making decisions and, things they should be making decisions, then I am disempowering them.

00;07;26;20 - 00;07;43;02
Steve Thornton
At that point, they're no longer they no longer feel empowered. You know, it's not their decision anymore. So now getting back my decision in the problem is going to be even if I try to re delegated, the problem is going to be because I created this problem. The problem is going to be that they won't necessarily believe it.

00;07;43;02 - 00;07;49;09
Steve Thornton
It's going to take time for them to trust me that when I give it to them, it is theirs.

00;07;49;11 - 00;08;08;04
Craig Andrews
You know, I think there's another risk that happens when when you hire people to do certain roles, which includes making these decisions, and then you come in and you start, you know, undoing what they've done or something like that. Isn't there another risk that's at play the at that point also for sure.

00;08;08;04 - 00;08;10;29
Steve Thornton
I mean, I think the big risk is going to be,

00;08;10;29 - 00;08;25;04
Steve Thornton
they, they say, hey, this is not what I signed up for. This is not the job I understood I was signing up for. And so for a lot of people, they may, you know, one is they can check out like we talked about. The other is they leave and then all of a sudden you're have you're having turnover.

00;08;25;10 - 00;08;44;08
Steve Thornton
So again people people want a job where they feel like they're able to do the things they feel comfortable doing. And if part of that they're expecting is decision making and you start disempowering, then you're going to end up having turnover. Yeah. If you're good at what they do, they're not going to want to stay.

00;08;44;10 - 00;08;50;27
Craig Andrews
You know I'm like most entrepreneurs I was a horrible employee. And the

00;08;50;27 - 00;08;59;21
Craig Andrews
but you know, but I had this one, boss. I had this one, boss. His name's Andrew Christie, and.

00;08;59;23 - 00;09;01;06
Steve Thornton
He.

00;09;01;08 - 00;09;22;00
Craig Andrews
He got me. He saw he saw the potential there. And what he would do is he just kind of check in with me every now and then, put up the bumper guards to make sure I was headed in a general direction. But beyond that, he just kind of left me alone. The benefit was he, they made a lot of money.

00;09;22;02 - 00;09;22;23
Craig Andrews
I made a.

00;09;22;23 - 00;09;45;06
Steve Thornton
Lot of good friends. Yeah. That's good. Well, it into your point. You know, the key there is. He did have there were bumper birds out there. You had you had a certain amount of rope, right? Yeah. But you feel empowered within that scope to go do what you need to do. Right. You can make decisions. And you weren't I assume you weren't worried about being second guessed.

00;09;45;08 - 00;09;51;27
Craig Andrews
No, no. And you know what? There were times I made mistakes and he'd sit down and he talked to me about them.

00;09;51;29 - 00;09;52;27
Steve Thornton
Right.

00;09;52;29 - 00;09;54;14
Craig Andrews
But those were rare.

00;09;54;16 - 00;10;07;16
Steve Thornton
But the and he learned, right. And he and he felt like it was an investment he was making. You knew that you could make those mistakes and learn from those mistakes so that you would be a better critic.

00;10;07;18 - 00;10;16;02
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. But when I was working for him, I was working,

00;10;16;02 - 00;10;26;05
Craig Andrews
I was easily working ten, 12 hour days. And it's not because I'm the only person that put the pressure on me to do that was me, right?

00;10;26;07 - 00;10;29;12
Steve Thornton
Right. Because you. Because you felt you you felt,

00;10;29;12 - 00;10;33;28
Steve Thornton
these were self-actualized. I mean, you felt like you you were giving,

00;10;33;28 - 00;10;42;15
Steve Thornton
your your sense of purpose and well-being out of of making things happen within the part of the business you really.

00;10;42;17 - 00;10;52;01
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And I, I mean, I had a vision for why I wanted to do it was radical. It was different than anything they had done before. It was effective. It knocked our competition,

00;10;52;01 - 00;10;56;01
Craig Andrews
flat footed for two years straight and and,

00;10;56;01 - 00;11;09;15
Craig Andrews
and instead of coming in and trying to control me, he just realized, okay, I don't understand everything he's doing, but I see the direction he's going, and and I'm not trying some short may.

00;11;09;15 - 00;11;12;06
Craig Andrews
He may have known better,

00;11;12;06 - 00;11;15;20
Craig Andrews
than I thought he. But he just. I just remember he,

00;11;15;20 - 00;11;32;27
Craig Andrews
he he only came in and just made slight adjustments whenever it was necessary. Whereas a lot of bosses would say, Craig, this is not your job, you know, and just can't box me in. Again, not not a good employee in a structured organization.

00;11;33;04 - 00;11;53;16
Steve Thornton
But but you know, he saw talent. He empowered you. He he wanted to make sure you learned when you made mistakes, he developed you. And he made it a part of your journey. Right? And of what you became. And so I would say he did a phenomenal job as a leader because he he was willing to take risk with you.

00;11;53;23 - 00;11;56;05
Steve Thornton
And I think that that speaks very highly.

00;11;56;05 - 00;11;59;09
Steve Thornton
I'll give you a scenario on a boss I had,

00;11;59;09 - 00;12;00;28
Steve Thornton
this guy was an executive,

00;12;00;28 - 00;12;05;19
Steve Thornton
for a corporate level for a long time. He was president of this business, and,

00;12;05;19 - 00;12;16;28
Steve Thornton
Mr. Unit and I was a young guy. Was only, like, 24 years old, and he took a chance on me because I was in a role that I probably wasn't technically qualified for.

00;12;16;28 - 00;12;30;17
Steve Thornton
It's done in terms of, not education was much, but more from the standpoint of experience. And he gave me major, major assignments. I need this accomplished. And it's like, you know,

00;12;30;17 - 00;12;39;10
Steve Thornton
I think you to put this capability or this system in place. And he let me go figure out how I'm going to do it. He didn't spell out, go to this, going to actually do this.

00;12;39;13 - 00;13;08;11
Steve Thornton
And it was kind of like getting thrown in the swimming pool. And but he was behind me and I had a question I could come ask, but it was he it was the intention was, you know, show me what you can do. And and I survived in that environment. The other positive I say about him was whenever there was a policy issue in, in, he would listen even though, you know, let's say I disagreed with the direction he would hear me out and he would listen to the debate.

00;13;08;13 - 00;13;22;11
Steve Thornton
And then once he made a decision, I accepted it. And I went and made and sometimes he went my way. Sometimes he changed his mind in some in sometimes he didn't. But you know, the, the for me, it was always good to have a boss who would let me,

00;13;22;11 - 00;13;26;17
Steve Thornton
voice my opinion and whether he went my way or not.

00;13;26;20 - 00;13;31;07
Steve Thornton
But the fact that I felt like I was heard meant a lot for me.

00;13;31;09 - 00;13;48;29
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So let's go back to Joe. Yeah. So here's Joe. The other thing I noticed about Joe is he works insane hours. He works day and night. If there's an emergency, all of a sudden he's dropping whatever he's doing in these, tending to the emergency.

00;13;48;29 - 00;13;53;09
Craig Andrews
If you were coaching Joe, what would you tell Joe?

00;13;53;12 - 00;13;54;13
Steve Thornton
You know,

00;13;54;13 - 00;14;08;21
Steve Thornton
I've I've I've I've always had employees who had some who had that kind of commitment and who lived and breathed it. And I've had people who did, and I've always wanted people who lived and breathed like Joe.

00;14;08;23 - 00;14;10;07
Craig Andrews
But he's the business owner.

00;14;10;09 - 00;14;43;06
Steve Thornton
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I'm just I'm just saying, so I'm just telling you that from my own personal thing. I've always wanted people who were that committed. So Joe's. It's his business. He's obviously committed to it. You know, the challenge Joe has is that. And this can be a lot of business owners is they can become prisoners to their business because they haven't developed enough organizational capability, enough responsibility being delegated, the right talent structure, whatever it is to be able to take that work going forward.

00;14;43;08 - 00;14;47;11
Steve Thornton
Because at some point, Joe may not want to work the 60, 65 hours a week.

00;14;47;11 - 00;15;06;10
Steve Thornton
His family may want to he he may want to improve this quality of life. His family may want to globalize. And so for him to change that, he's going to have to find a way of developing people beneath him to take ownership for things to solve problems in his stead without him having to be the one to do it.

00;15;06;12 - 00;15;16;13
Steve Thornton
And I think that's going to be that would be a thing that it it it's not something you can just flip the switch tomorrow. It's got to be planned approach to do with it.

00;15;16;15 - 00;15;31;14
Craig Andrews
Well, and what's interesting is he's already reached that point. You know, we were talking I think last week and he just he was burned out. And he's like, I'm thinking about selling the business. I said, Joe, you don't have anything you can sell. Your business doesn't exist without you.

00;15;31;16 - 00;15;45;00
Steve Thornton
Correct? Correct. Because again yeah, he he's caught. He he needs to be able to separate him some self from the business, create some kind of profitability to be able to have something to sell. Otherwise to your point,

00;15;45;00 - 00;15;53;04
Steve Thornton
somebody else doesn't want to come in and buy a job because that's what they would be doing is buying a job, because they would have to be able to do all the things Joe's doing.

00;15;53;06 - 00;15;53;21
Steve Thornton
And,

00;15;53;21 - 00;16;05;01
Steve Thornton
and owners new businesses that somebody wants to buy a business, they don't want to buy a job. They want to they want to buy a business that creates income without them being a part of the party to it. So,

00;16;05;01 - 00;16;13;14
Steve Thornton
absolutely. So, you know, he he needs to find a way to free himself. And, and there are ways of doing that.

00;16;13;17 - 00;16;30;25
Steve Thornton
But again, it's going to take looking at what, you know. Yeah. Honestly you have to take an inventory. Where does he spend this time, what kinds of problems he has resolved. And then you have to go through the process of saying, how many of these things can we just start doing this? Because there are some level of those.

00;16;30;27 - 00;16;32;09
Steve Thornton
How many things,

00;16;32;09 - 00;16;50;25
Steve Thornton
must be done by somebody. They need to be delegated. And he's gotta develop a capability within the organization. And then how many of these problems are problems? They need to figure out the answer to that they never solved. In other words, they just kind of occur and they just being made. So there's a there's a process to going through to figure that out.

00;16;50;28 - 00;16;55;28
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that's really key. It's

00;16;55;28 - 00;17;00;13
Craig Andrews
and again I'm talking about something that I'm struggling with. You know, the

00;17;00;13 - 00;17;19;02
Craig Andrews
I don't yet have a business I can sell, you know, and, and, you know, working on getting there made, you know, typical process, made some progress, you know, had some setbacks. But, you know, back on,

00;17;19;02 - 00;17;20;24
Craig Andrews
working that again.

00;17;20;26 - 00;17;21;24
Craig Andrews
Now, I do have the,

00;17;21;24 - 00;17;26;24
Craig Andrews
you know, the, the, the trump card of, you know, nearly dying does create some setbacks.

00;17;26;25 - 00;17;34;14
Steve Thornton
Yeah. That is that is a problem. Yeah. That is a thing that that that is hope everybody back. So,

00;17;34;16 - 00;17;35;08
Craig Andrews
But

00;17;35;08 - 00;17;35;26
Craig Andrews
go ahead.

00;17;35;29 - 00;17;54;19
Steve Thornton
Yeah. So when you think about your business. Right. So I guess one part of it is, you know, you have to when you if you want to be able to sell a business, people want don't want to borrow undefined processes. Right. But you need to have here's how we do what we do. You need to have things be able to be spelled out.

00;17;54;21 - 00;18;18;20
Steve Thornton
But but of course, the other thing you have to have is the person in your seat or the person in charge. Jose. They they have to be. You have to have someone else to be able to do the day to day that you're doing today or he's doing today. Any time you're going to have to restructure the business in a way that you can truly be 100% or almost 100%,

00;18;18;20 - 00;18;21;03
Steve Thornton
on the business and not in the business.

00;18;21;06 - 00;18;41;06
Steve Thornton
And so and that, that that is going to take some, you know, there's some organizational, organizational design issues. There's some talent issues. There's do I have the right players? Because you might have the you might have great players on your team. Great. But maybe they're not the right players. But you need to do that. They may not make that true.

00;18;41;08 - 00;18;53;28
Steve Thornton
And that's a tough thing to face too, is because they're great people. You love them, you care about them. They've done great work for you. But maybe they can't make the next step of the journey. Yeah.

00;18;54;00 - 00;19;02;11
Craig Andrews
And, you know, it's it's interesting. Let me let me pick on a very large company that everybody knows,

00;19;02;11 - 00;19;15;03
Craig Andrews
of a leader that didn't, you know, didn't have a, didn't have a way of replacing himself and that Steve Jobs, you know, I was talking with somebody this morning about Apple and the,

00;19;15;03 - 00;19;17;06
Craig Andrews
you know,

00;19;17;06 - 00;19;23;22
Craig Andrews
Apple, you know, Apple's released their fourth version of the iPhone 12.

00;19;23;24 - 00;19;25;00
Craig Andrews
And,

00;19;25;00 - 00;19;33;01
Craig Andrews
and they haven't really done anything innovative. They did that Vision Pro, which was innovative for a problem. Nobody had. But and

00;19;33;01 - 00;19;47;11
Craig Andrews
and here's the thing, Tim Cook, without a doubt, is one of the best executives in the world. I don't think anybody would argue that. But the thing that Steve didn't replace was who was going to be the engine of innovation.

00;19;47;13 - 00;20;09;28
Craig Andrews
You know, Tim Cook's an operations guy. So his idea of innovation happens in the supply chain. But Steve Jobs didn't wasn't able to pass on those skills. He wasn't able to mentor those skills where he had product innovators that were able to keep Apple innovating beyond his death.

00;20;10;00 - 00;20;37;16
Steve Thornton
Right in, in, you know, and the way you characterize is perfect. Tim Cook is definitely an operator. And so he's he's that he's that you know, he was fantastic. You've been fantastic as the CEO. Oh. Or if he's going to be the as the CEO, he's got to develop some kind of visionary group that is you know, this doing R&D, doing understanding and be able to see in the future.

00;20;37;18 - 00;20;47;15
Steve Thornton
Envision what people's needs might need, advocating and anticipate. And so and that's a capability that's an organizational capability,

00;20;47;15 - 00;21;07;12
Steve Thornton
that obviously they're struggling with is a lot of companies struggle with. And you're right, Steve Jobs was unique in that area that he could do that. You know, the thing that Tim Cook probably has done is they probably execute, I'm sure, better than they did in the years past, because where but he but at some point you're going to cut

00;21;07;12 - 00;21;17;26
Steve Thornton
you cut off the innovation engine to long people catch up to you and then, you know, especially more so right now, they probably still benefit from the standpoint that they've saturated the market with such

00;21;17;26 - 00;21;29;29
Steve Thornton
products that people continue to buy them, but they're not winning because they're nation building, but they're winning because they've just got a position in the market. And you and I are my my friends. Right. And we might buy,

00;21;29;29 - 00;21;38;13
Steve Thornton
a mac. Right. So but but it's not because the Mac is unique and different like it once was. Yeah.

00;21;38;15 - 00;21;39;21
Steve Thornton
Yeah.

00;21;39;23 - 00;21;52;11
Craig Andrews
So this raises kind of an interesting question. And this is something that I'm writing into my in my business, I mean, what I have some very unique skills that are rare and valuable.

00;21;52;11 - 00;22;04;22
Craig Andrews
But back to kind of the same question of if I want to have a business to sell, I need to figure out how to develop that capability within the business.

00;22;04;22 - 00;22;07;10
Craig Andrews
That done reside entirely in me.

00;22;07;12 - 00;22;09;23
Steve Thornton
How do people do that?

00;22;09;23 - 00;22;11;07
Steve Thornton
You're going to have to,

00;22;11;07 - 00;22;24;16
Steve Thornton
hire or bring into your organization or bring into your capability. Somehow people who can do that, and you're going to have to be able to give up that, that responsibility and,

00;22;24;16 - 00;22;27;21
Steve Thornton
and teach them how to do it in the way you would do it.

00;22;27;21 - 00;22;31;16
Steve Thornton
And so you're going to have to build that capability and replace yourself.

00;22;31;16 - 00;22;32;18
Steve Thornton
That's the only,

00;22;32;18 - 00;22;36;08
Steve Thornton
that's the only path you're going to have otherwise.

00;22;36;08 - 00;22;40;14
Steve Thornton
You know, you are, like you said, you just like Joe, you are the business. And,

00;22;40;14 - 00;23;02;17
Steve Thornton
so you're going to have to it all comes down to who are the who are the candidates, either that you know or don't know yet, they can can do the kind of work you're doing that you can train to do, the kind of work you're doing, and you may have to systematize some of the processes, the procedures, the methods, the the know how you have and so that it can be executed by others.

00;23;02;20 - 00;23;22;15
Craig Andrews
You. Yeah. And I think there's something else that holds a lot of leaders back is they say nobody can do it like me, which most of the time I think is true. But imagine if we had a little mini CEO, Steve Jobs at Apple that was about 80% as good as Steve Jobs.

00;23;22;18 - 00;23;30;21
Steve Thornton
Right? That would still be better. Yeah, and it could, because again, we're all

00;23;30;21 - 00;23;46;23
Steve Thornton
leave our business right? Yeah. Either by natural or unnatural means. But we're all going to leave our business. And so it's better to have something that's 80% of what you are than to have zero, because that's ultimately what it's going to be because you won't be there.

00;23;46;26 - 00;23;47;14
Steve Thornton
So,

00;23;47;14 - 00;24;09;16
Steve Thornton
so your point's taken. I mean, you, you have to build the capability somehow. And even if it's not quite as unique as you are, you could try to make it as close as you can. And then you you go. Because otherwise you will never be able to sell anything. Yeah, go for it. Apple can't continue to innovate like they're struggling with them.

00;24;09;18 - 00;24;20;19
Craig Andrews
And I think one of the challenges for leaders is when you're developing that person and they do it 80% as good as you do, you need to celebrate them for that 80%.

00;24;20;22 - 00;24;43;05
Steve Thornton
And that's for right? I mean, let's be honest, that's hard because we always we tend to be critical first versus being, hey, you've made progress. So we need to be measuring, not the gap. We need to measure the game. So this you know that's the key thing. We need to be focused on. Hey you've gone from 45%, you know, in theory to the 52%.

00;24;43;10 - 00;24;47;00
Steve Thornton
You've made great progress. Let's see if we can get a 60 by experience.

00;24;47;00 - 00;25;05;19
Steve Thornton
You know, that's what we need to focus on. And instead, a lot of us say, well, you're still not here. You're still not there in in the product. And like you said, the context of those grades are totally different feeling within the person. And if you treat them in a negative way, they're not going to stay.

00;25;05;22 - 00;25;07;19
Steve Thornton
And then you start a.

00;25;07;21 - 00;25;13;27
Craig Andrews
And the reality is, if they're 80% of you, they're probably an exceptional employee that anybody would like to hire.

00;25;14;00 - 00;25;33;22
Steve Thornton
That's right. Exactly, exactly. And if they leave and take that 80% to somebody else, now you have a competitor you have to worry about. Yeah. So you, you've you've gone from being more differentiated, right, to a less differentiated position because you mishandled the situation. When that potential,

00;25;33;22 - 00;25;35;10
Steve Thornton
person.

00;25;35;12 - 00;25;58;24
Craig Andrews
Now here's what happens. And it's happened to me and it can sting a little bit. You look at somebody doing something and you're like, oh, they're not doing it the way I would. And but you're keeping that mindset. I'm staying hands off. I'm letting them earn this. And in the process of them doing it, not the way that you would do it, you discover that there's another way of doing it that may even be better.

00;25;58;26 - 00;26;15;08
Steve Thornton
That's right. Well, and I think that's that's common. We get better. I mean, even though we think we're with our processes the best way we do. Fine. I mean, innovation comes from people working together on something and they go, oh, wow. You know,

00;26;15;08 - 00;26;23;20
Steve Thornton
you did have the best idea. Greg. I see we had a different idea that maybe wasn't perfect, but when you took it and added it to what you already had, it was better.

00;26;23;22 - 00;26;37;16
Steve Thornton
Now all of a sudden there's something better. And that's the key. I mean, that's when brainstorming is done right? That's the way it does. It's a building block type process like. Right. And that that's a perfect example how it works with innovation and ideas.

00;26;37;18 - 00;26;41;28
Craig Andrews
Yeah. You know, I've I've got someone that works for me named Elena,

00;26;41;28 - 00;26;55;06
Craig Andrews
who I just think the world of and years ago, she came up, came up to me and started talking. And I'm listening to her. I'm listening to her. And she gets done talking and said, you know, lain, and let me see if I have this right.

00;26;55;09 - 00;27;19;24
Craig Andrews
There was a problem. You fix the problem. You're just here giving me an update so I know what happened, she said. Yeah, I was like, that's great. Yeah. She identified a problem. She owned it. She fixed it. She put together a resolution never once asked me for permission. Never once encumbered me. I was off doing my own thing.

00;27;19;26 - 00;27;20;15
Craig Andrews
And,

00;27;20;15 - 00;27;23;21
Craig Andrews
And she's just an absolute gem.

00;27;23;24 - 00;27;44;24
Steve Thornton
You know, because that's awesome. I, I have a similar story of back in my corporate life days when I was running a business unit and there was some kind of issue that came up with some kind of quality problem, and my team had gotten together and solved the problem, working out with the customer and all this. I didn't know about it.

00;27;44;24 - 00;28;00;29
Steve Thornton
I was gone that morning in a meeting somewhere, and then when I get back, it's all done. And then you may not do it. And and it would have normally been a big deal that, you know, but again, they, they, they took it upon themselves to go solve the problem. And it was it was great. It was down.

00;28;01;02 - 00;28;04;13
Steve Thornton
And that's the same thing you're saying with her now.

00;28;04;13 - 00;28;29;18
Craig Andrews
There's a term that's popped up on the horizon. And I think for me, I've been aware of it for probably less than ten years, and it's probably older than that. But I've started hearing people talk about operating systems, too. And, you know, I yeah, I'm a techie. When I think of that, I think about computer operating systems. What in business, what are operating systems?

00;28;29;20 - 00;28;36;19
Steve Thornton
You know, the term business operating system is it's really a summation of a lot of different,

00;28;36;19 - 00;28;37;09
Steve Thornton
I'll say,

00;28;37;09 - 00;28;56;14
Steve Thornton
things like it's your people systems, it's your it's your mission statement is your it's your strategy. It's your value proposition. It's your it's your playbooks. It's how you do things. It's how you work with each other. It's it's it's the summation of things that you do to create the outcomes you create.

00;28;56;16 - 00;29;18;08
Steve Thornton
So so we all have operating system, business operating systems. Every business does. Some are well documented, well-thought through, well constructed, some are non-existent. And people just kind of fly by the sea their pants. But they have something and they do it a certain way. So. So the challenge is when we're,

00;29;18;08 - 00;29;31;15
Steve Thornton
a young business starting out or a smaller business, like maybe you and I might have you know, we can get away with a few things a certain way that are a little loose because it's just us or it's just us on a small team.

00;29;31;17 - 00;29;51;28
Steve Thornton
So, and things work. But at some point, if you find success and you grow, you're going to find a scenario where now all of a sudden, you know, those playbooks not being quite as good, honest, good. Because we had we have a hard two people and we hired two people. You know, the the old timers we've had, they knew how to do everything.

00;29;51;28 - 00;30;13;19
Steve Thornton
And they did it right. Now we need good process instructions to teach people how to do things and playbooks how to do it or, you know, now suddenly grown to a point where, you know, we had people just doing customer service activity, maybe make an occasional outbound call, but now we need to have repeating because we've got a certain level capacity, we need a

00;30;13;19 - 00;30;21;14
Steve Thornton
certain level of intake of new business, and we need to change our approach for developing leads, developing accounts.

00;30;21;14 - 00;30;30;15
Steve Thornton
And so forth. And so our, our we tend to outgrow our business. Our operating systems are our methods of doing things. And

00;30;30;15 - 00;30;55;05
Steve Thornton
and it creates stress or complexity in the organization. And so that's one of the things that I and I try to do is I try to help companies work through those complexity issues that they're facing, because a lot of a lot of new businesses, a lot of those haven't faced those before because they might be a first time entrepreneur, or maybe they are not a first timers, but they know those are challenges.

00;30;55;05 - 00;31;15;25
Steve Thornton
That and then they're sweetspot. So they, they, you know, and so that's the kind of and these problems occur all along your journey to get bigger. You know, for example, when when you first started your firm, you can do certain things certain way because it was you. But then when you had to coordinate with 2 or 3 other people on certain things will now it's a little more complex.

00;31;15;25 - 00;31;24;21
Steve Thornton
We have to have things a little more formalized. That's the kind of process of complexity that that that goes with every business as they get started.

00;31;24;23 - 00;31;38;23
Craig Andrews
Now they're they're systems like iOS Entrepreneur's operating System and pinnacle that become popular. Yeah. What do those do? What's what's the benefit of those?

00;31;38;25 - 00;31;39;08
Steve Thornton
So,

00;31;39;08 - 00;31;44;01
Steve Thornton
iOS is a very popular system. And start with it and then we'll talk about pinnacle, which I do,

00;31;44;01 - 00;31;58;25
Steve Thornton
iOS in defines a set. It's a very prescriptive playbook. And it defines here's how you develop your strategy. Here's how you do your mission statement. Here's how you go through and analyze people. They have a people analyzer.

00;31;59;00 - 00;32;24;00
Steve Thornton
Here's how you run meetings. It's a very prescriptive process in. And pinnacle is very similar in a lot of ways. We have those same kind of frameworks and tools. The key difference, I would say, between the two systems is that the pinnacle system is very customizable. So in other words, you can, you know, in pinnacle we have the the thought process that one size doesn't fit all for everybody.

00;32;24;00 - 00;32;29;02
Steve Thornton
And so every business might have unique challenges. And so we we focus on

00;32;29;02 - 00;32;33;25
Steve Thornton
customizing to fit the need of the client. So it's a much more customizable approach.

00;32;33;25 - 00;32;59;19
Steve Thornton
In all cases they bring structure, both systems bring structure. And if you're if you're facing complexity, you need something to help you manage that complexity. Because some complexity you want to cut out, some you have to deal with in the way you deal with it is you put in structure, you know, in all my consulting, you know, a lot of times when I'm dealing with clients is I'm helping them put any structure, you know, where they work or what you do with what in in

00;32;59;19 - 00;33;27;22
Steve Thornton
helping people get more, better leads and more business. You know, you're helping them look at that process differently in a more structured way. So it's the same thing that both of these systems do. They they bring structure so that you can perform at a higher level. Again, my point of view on it is that the pinnacle system, being flexible in terms of how you apply it so that you can optimize your situation, I think that's better for the client.

00;33;27;25 - 00;33;35;00
Steve Thornton
It's also more flexible in terms of how you can engage a client, which again, I think benefits the time, you know.

00;33;35;02 - 00;33;57;01
Craig Andrews
Well, one of the things I like about that approach is, you know, as I start envisioning different growth ladders in my own business, I realize, okay, at this point, I'm going to have to figure out this. And my perception is somebody else has already figured this out and put it in a framework like pinnacle.

00;33;57;03 - 00;34;06;01
Steve Thornton
Right. You know? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And I'll I'll be honest, I mean, when I first,

00;34;06;01 - 00;34;19;10
Steve Thornton
started apex and I was looking at doing this type of work, I looked at how do I create my own because I had a business operating system in my past life that I used over and over and over. Right. And,

00;34;19;10 - 00;34;27;17
Steve Thornton
but the advantage I found with, you know, system like kind of Google or even the system built like iOS, is that these systems are pretty well defined.

00;34;27;23 - 00;34;30;16
Steve Thornton
So it makes it easier to,

00;34;30;16 - 00;34;42;25
Steve Thornton
to show and teach. And a lot of materials are there. So it, it, it, it is definitely better to have something to start from and be able to make progress faster. And from a client's perspective,

00;34;42;25 - 00;34;48;06
Steve Thornton
if you have a good starting point, you can customize around the edges to make it work for you.

00;34;48;09 - 00;34;53;01
Steve Thornton
And I think that, again, I think is that the beauty of the technical approach?

00;34;53;03 - 00;34;57;22
Craig Andrews
Well, and here's something I think about, you know, I've been able to figure out

00;34;57;22 - 00;35;10;18
Craig Andrews
most things. I attack one life. That's not the problem. The problem is do I have the time? I mean, if I had yeah, that's that's the qualification. With enough time, I can figure out almost anything.

00;35;10;21 - 00;35;11;29
Steve Thornton
Right.

00;35;12;01 - 00;35;23;00
Craig Andrews
The question is, do I have the time to devote to learning to that? And what's the what's that devotion going and distract me from that's bringing more value to the business?

00;35;23;02 - 00;35;43;10
Steve Thornton
No, I think you asked the right question. It everything we we we have to start picking what we're going to do and what we're not going to do, because everything does not equal value to your point, it isn't. If I'm a business owner and I'm looking at my situation, I'm looking at it. I've look, I can do that.

00;35;43;13 - 00;35;49;15
Steve Thornton
But if I do that, I can't do these three things which bring the business more value. And that's why,

00;35;49;15 - 00;36;05;08
Steve Thornton
why it's important to pick and choose where you as a leader can bring the most value in, in and outsource the areas that you can't bring the most value because you can find other great talent to solve those problems for you.

00;36;05;10 - 00;36;06;19
Steve Thornton
Yeah.

00;36;06;22 - 00;36;21;28
Craig Andrews
Well, Steve, this has been fascinating. And so obviously you help people, you know, if there's somebody out there that has a business and they have one of those moments where they're they're feeling a little bit stupid about something, but they don't want help. Folks. They're not alone.

00;36;22;00 - 00;36;22;25
Steve Thornton
No.

00;36;22;27 - 00;36;30;10
Craig Andrews
There there's answers to their questions and you help them find these answers. Where can they find you?

00;36;30;13 - 00;36;32;15
Steve Thornton
You can find me at WW

00;36;32;15 - 00;36;38;01
Steve Thornton
apex Dash Netcom. That's on our website.

00;36;38;01 - 00;36;39;06
Steve Thornton
I'm also,

00;36;39;06 - 00;36;45;27
Steve Thornton
my email is steve@apex-gt.com, and,

00;36;45;27 - 00;36;53;14
Steve Thornton
and my phone number is 713208265. So I can be reached at any of those,

00;36;53;14 - 00;37;01;23
Steve Thornton
places and look forward to talking to people about where they are. And, hey, you know, there's never a reason to be ashamed where you are.

00;37;01;25 - 00;37;07;27
Steve Thornton
We all are where we are, and we're always trying to get better. So that's that's just kind of where life is.

00;37;07;29 - 00;37;11;08
Craig Andrews
Great point. Well Steve, thanks for sharing that. And leaders and legacies.

00;37;11;10 - 00;37;17;01
Steve Thornton
Hey, thank you for having me. And Greg. Thanks again so much.

00;37;17;01 - 00;37;43;25
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Ally's for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this

00;37;43;25 - 00;37;45;20
Craig Andrews
episode on social media.

00;37;45;22 - 00;38;09;04
Craig Andrews
Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or posted on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest. Tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.

00;38;09;06 - 00;38;17;11
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up. Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.

00;38;17;11 - 00;40;19;14
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Ally's for me.com. Or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.