Donovan Ryckis is leading a healthcare revolution—one grounded in leadership, accountability, and total transparency. As CEO of Ethos Benefits, he exposes the broken incentives in traditional benefits brokerage, where rising premiums often pad broker commissions. His fiduciary approach flips the model: no backdoor deals, no hidden fees, and no vague renewals. Just clear numbers and bold decisions.

In this episode, Donovan walks through how he saved a client from a 37% rate hike—without cutting coverage. He explains how ERISA laws make employers responsible for plan decisions, even if they don't understand them. He also breaks down how healthcare lawsuits are forcing CEOs, CFOs, and HR leaders to take their fiduciary duties seriously—or face legal consequences.

Donovan doesn’t talk about leadership in theory—he practices it by telling hard truths, navigating complex data, and challenging a system rigged for opacity. This episode is a must-listen for any leader responsible for a company’s healthcare decisions.

Want to learn more about Donovan Ryckis' work? Check out his website at https://www.EthosBenefits.com.

Connect with Donovan Ryckis on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/donovanryckis.

Key Points with Timestamps

• [00:51] – Introducing Donovan Ryckis and his mission to reform employer-sponsored healthcare

• [02:20] – Donovan's early career in financial services and the impact of the fiduciary rule debate

• [05:41] – The call that changed his career: how a 37% premium hike led him into healthcare

• [07:07] – How Donovan reversed the increase without reducing benefits or tightening networks

• [08:20] – The hidden incentive: how brokers profit from premium hikes

• [11:00] – What “fiduciary” really means in healthcare—and why it legally matters

• [14:05] – Why smaller businesses aren’t exempt from fiduciary duty

• [17:20] – Lawsuits are coming: how big firms like Johnson & Johnson are getting hit

• [20:02] – Why wellness programs rarely reduce healthcare costs

• [21:00] – The problem with asking employees to fix what employers control

• [22:15] – Donovan’s five-year health care strategy and focus on direct primary care

• [23:08] – Using federal assistance programs to help employees cover deductibles

• [24:31] – Donovan’s parting advice: follow the claims, not the excuses

• [26:15] – Why insurance isn’t designed to keep costs low—and what leaders should do instead

• [27:06] – How to contact Donovan and watch his documentary It’s Not Personal. It’s Just Health Care.

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment in my career.

00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;10
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on this show.

00;00;51;13 - 00;01;21;11
Craig Andrews
Today, I want to welcome Donovan Ryckis as his the CEO of Ethos Benefits and a certified exit planning advisor. Donovan is redefining employer sponsored health care through fiduciary strategies. We'll talk about what that means. Cost transparency and bold leadership. He's also the producer of the documentary: It's Not Personal, It's Just Healthcare. And that's something you absolutely want to listen to if you get a chance.

00;01;21;13 - 00;01;26;24
Craig Andrews
So if you've been listening to the podcast, you know that I've had a number of people from,

00;01;26;24 - 00;01;31;25
Craig Andrews
healthcare industry coming on because this is either the number,

00;01;31;25 - 00;01;43;10
Craig Andrews
it's rapidly becoming like, I think the number two expense item in businesses. This is a big problem that needs to be fixed. And Donovan is one of the people that's fixing it.

00;01;43;12 - 00;01;45;08
Craig Andrews
Donovan, welcome.

00;01;45;11 - 00;01;47;09
Donovan Ryckis
Thank you for having me, Craig. Appreciate it.

00;01;47;11 - 00;01;58;25
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So, you know, it's it's interesting as I've talked to different people in your space, I've noticed a lot of them come from different backgrounds. Some,

00;01;58;25 - 00;02;05;06
Craig Andrews
you know, some of them very predictable. Like Doctor Dickerson is a doctor, so she's working in healthcare.

00;02;06;06 - 00;02;07;19
Craig Andrews
But you come from,

00;02;07;19 - 00;02;07;29
Craig Andrews
you,

00;02;07;29 - 00;02;09;21
Craig Andrews
you were a financial advisor?

00;02;09;24 - 00;02;11;17
Donovan Ryckis
Yes. That's correct.

00;02;11;19 - 00;02;17;14
Craig Andrews
So, like, were you working for one of the banks or what was it like?

00;02;17;16 - 00;02;20;29
Donovan Ryckis
No, no. So I started in financial services.

00;02;20;29 - 00;02;32;27
Donovan Ryckis
Which is a big industry. I mean, that could mean anything from selling individual health insurance to life insurance to being a financial advisor, maybe even over to what I'm doing now. So,

00;02;32;27 - 00;02;39;08
Donovan Ryckis
I kind of started in, in financial services was initially selling like life insurance policies. Didn't love it.

00;02;39;10 - 00;02;49;01
Donovan Ryckis
But I loved the industry and I loved it because you could work with any client you wanted to, and you could solve any type of problem you wanted to. I just didn't know what that would be.

00;02;49;01 - 00;02;53;27
Donovan Ryckis
I ended up working my way up to study and get my securities license, and,

00;02;53;27 - 00;02;55;04
Donovan Ryckis
that was at an interesting time.

00;02;55;04 - 00;03;19;03
Donovan Ryckis
That was during the Obama years. And he was contemplating passing something called the fiduciary rule, which was this crazy, crazy concept that if you were a financial advisor, you would be bound to act in your act in the best interest of your client, not have any conflicts of interest, and be transparent with your compensation to your client. And the industry was freaking out.

00;03;19;08 - 00;03;35;05
Donovan Ryckis
Like they did not want this. They did not like it. Financial advisors were trying to figure out what they were going to do, like it was just full on panic mode. And I'm kind of coming in during this time and I'm like, what's the problem here, guys? Like, I don't I don't get it. Isn't that what we do?

00;03;35;07 - 00;03;35;26
Craig Andrews
Yeah.

00;03;35;28 - 00;03;54;28
Donovan Ryckis
You know, so started with that I did opt to they you know in securities there is a fiduciary license which is the highest standard of care from, you know, consultant to client. And that's the route I opted to to go. I figured the fiduciary rule wouldn't pass. And if it did, it would be watered down. It's exactly what happened.

00;03;55;01 - 00;03;58;25
Donovan Ryckis
It didn't pass. It was watered down, and I ended up coming out of it.

00;03;58;25 - 00;04;00;10
Donovan Ryckis
So standard it.

00;04;00;13 - 00;04;03;20
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Let me jump in there. I so I had a,

00;04;03;20 - 00;04;05;14
Craig Andrews
client,

00;04;05;14 - 00;04;22;15
Craig Andrews
back in 2016. So just a few years after that passed, and they wanted to talk about being a fiduciary on their website, and I kept running into a compliance officer who was like, that's not compliant, that's not compliant. And she smugly threw an 80 page document at me and said, you need to read this.

00;04;22;17 - 00;04;44;11
Craig Andrews
Well, I read it and I came back the next week and said, hey, if I quote the SEC chairman, would that be compliant? She's like, well, yeah. I said, well, the SEC chairman says the due sherry's a meaningless term and so broad you could drive a bus through it. And so he actually put that on the website, you know, as the highest authority saying it doesn't really mean anything.

00;04;44;11 - 00;04;50;25
Craig Andrews
Here's how we do things. So it's kind of interesting when you say that was watered down. I didn't know that history.

00;04;50;27 - 00;04;53;20
Donovan Ryckis
Oh yeah. Yeah, it was watered down big time.

00;04;53;20 - 00;05;10;03
Donovan Ryckis
So, you know, the biggest difference when you're representing a client is like the advice you're going to give. Is it going to be fee based where they can see that, understand what you're doing, and then you're just going to go out regardless and just find them and make the best consulting plan for them.

00;05;10;03 - 00;05;29;23
Donovan Ryckis
Or are you going to sell products that have different commission loads that they don't see, they don't understand? So that was the biggest differentiator, you know? So I opted to go that way where I would just charge my fee. Here's my fee. Regardless of what we do. And then my job is to make sure I perform annually. And as soon as that's not working, you can leave.

00;05;29;23 - 00;05;36;09
Donovan Ryckis
Rather than sell them a mutual fund with a 3% load, that's going to cause them to get out of it, right?

00;05;36;11 - 00;05;37;20
Craig Andrews
Right.

00;05;37;23 - 00;05;39;16
Donovan Ryckis
So that's kind of where I started.

00;05;39;16 - 00;05;41;28
Donovan Ryckis
Loved it. Was doing incredibly well.

00;05;41;28 - 00;05;54;23
Donovan Ryckis
And one day a client just kind of asked me, you know, he called me. I could hear the panic in his voice, and. And he's just telling me, like, hey, my broker said my employee benefits at my company are going to go up 37%.

00;05;54;23 - 00;06;00;17
Donovan Ryckis
There's nothing he can do. This is the last option. Can you do something? And,

00;06;00;17 - 00;06;04;08
Donovan Ryckis
I could just kind of hear the panic. And I didn't know anything about health insurance at all.

00;06;04;08 - 00;06;13;21
Donovan Ryckis
But I figured, you know, it's a financial product with an insurance aspect. I can figure this out. And because of that, I said, sure. And I said, send me everything you have.

00;06;13;24 - 00;06;23;26
Donovan Ryckis
And I said that carefully because I had no idea what data he had, what I would need, like what the problem entailed. I'm just like, yeah, just send me everything. And,

00;06;23;26 - 00;06;38;15
Donovan Ryckis
what was shocking was, you know, he had about 120 employees at the time. That 37% increase was accounted for on one page in about two paragraphs that just said you're going to pay 37% more.

00;06;39;16 - 00;07;05;25
Donovan Ryckis
So I'm looking at that as a financial advisor, thinking 120 employees plus the dependents. You know we got 220 or so subscribers individually. That must mean thousands of claims. If we're talking about pharmacy claims, primary specialists, urgent care, E.R. visits, there must be thousands of claims. How are we accounting for this? On one page?

00;07;05;28 - 00;07;07;04
Craig Andrews
Yeah.

00;07;07;06 - 00;07;30;02
Donovan Ryckis
And the short of it was after a few weeks, just kind of meeting as many people as I could in the industry, trying to solve the problem, trying to acquire more data than they were providing him. We did that. We actually got the renewal -40. So we saved him three points under where he was currently and we didn't decrease benefits, we didn't increase deductibles.

00;07;30;02 - 00;07;43;05
Donovan Ryckis
We didn't put them in a tighter network. We didn't, you know, none of the typical tricks. So we were able to keep them in a like plan without taking away anything in, you know, mitigating that increase entirely.

00;07;43;08 - 00;07;50;18
Craig Andrews
Wow. Wow. So what was behind that? I mean, was it just somebody got bored and said, hey, let's,

00;07;50;18 - 00;07;55;02
Craig Andrews
let's just increase the premiums 37%, see if it flies.

00;07;55;05 - 00;07;56;13
Donovan Ryckis
Yeah. I mean, a few things.

00;07;56;13 - 00;08;20;02
Donovan Ryckis
So number one, I knew that it was in the broker's best interest. So brokers get paid a percentage of premium, so they get broker to sell a risk. A risk transfer. The bigger the risk transfer, the bigger the commission. So unfortunately, the premium going up for the employer meant more commission for the broker.

00;08;20;04 - 00;08;36;24
Donovan Ryckis
So they might have wanted to find an option. Maybe they thought I was too big, but likely what they did is only went to maybe 1 or 2 carriers to bundle all the services. So they said, hey, I'm with Blue Cross. I'm going to look at United. I'm gonna look at Cigna. Nope, that didn't work. Okay, here you go.

00;08;36;26 - 00;08;56;13
Donovan Ryckis
But what they didn't do was look at any of the claims data, right? If the if the premium is increasing because the cost of claims, there was no attempt to look at the actual claims data to say what is what are the claims? What are those costs? How can we mitigate those? How can we change those? What risk is actually still on the plan?

00;08;56;15 - 00;09;10;27
Donovan Ryckis
Am I paying for a premium increase for employees that I have already term this year? You know, like we paid claims for those members, but now they're not part of the team anymore. What's going on there like that wasn't part of the equation.

00;09;10;29 - 00;09;14;11
Craig Andrews
Well. And the

00;09;14;11 - 00;09;23;00
Craig Andrews
you know one of the things that hits me so I buy my own insurance and

00;09;23;00 - 00;09;31;27
Craig Andrews
in a couple of weeks I'm about to have a 20% increase. And now I don't have, you know, we're not big enough that we have,

00;09;31;27 - 00;09;36;24
Craig Andrews
where we're able to do a self-funded or anything like that.

00;09;36;26 - 00;09;47;27
Craig Andrews
And just leaves me feeling helpless, you know, and I'm on a grandfathered plan from ACA. And anybody I talk to in the industry say says hang on to that.

00;09;47;27 - 00;09;53;02
Craig Andrews
But it's like stupid. It's got I used to pay $90 a month.

00;09;53;02 - 00;09;54;24
Craig Andrews
And now it's,

00;09;54;24 - 00;10;00;15
Craig Andrews
in two weeks it's going to be 800 a month. And except for three years of my life, I.

00;10;00;18 - 00;10;02;16
Craig Andrews
I don't use it.

00;10;02;18 - 00;10;21;03
Donovan Ryckis
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's where most people are. And you see a lot of employees just forgoing that because of the cost of the premiums. It's just it's too much to come out of your paycheck before anything else. You know, taxes and health insurance. You're left with not much after to take care of your family.

00;10;21;05 - 00;10;28;03
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, now, employers that do self-funded plans have,

00;10;28;03 - 00;10;47;00
Craig Andrews
you know, a few more options. Actually, let me pause before we go there. You know, there's a term you've used a couple times, and I think it's one of these confusing terms. You know, there's somebody in the financial services industry that spends over 100 million a year in marketing and goes around says, we're different, we're a fiduciary.

00;10;47;02 - 00;10;48;02
Craig Andrews
And I'm like,

00;10;48;02 - 00;11;00;11
Craig Andrews
shut up, you know. No you're not different. There's 450,000 financial advisors out there. You all do the same thing using basically the same tools. And nobody knows what the fiduciary means except for the chairman of the SEC.

00;11;00;11 - 00;11;07;01
Craig Andrews
Now the term fiduciary has been brought into health care. Yeah. What does it mean in the context of health care?

00;11;07;03 - 00;11;14;28
Donovan Ryckis
Yeah. So interestingly, it's always been a part of health care because it's it's under a risk. Right. So that's also what governs,

00;11;14;28 - 00;11;19;22
Donovan Ryckis
401 K plans and pension plans. So it's been around since 74.

00;11;19;22 - 00;11;35;09
Donovan Ryckis
So Risa does apply to health care plans, and it's supposed to mean the higher the highest standard of care. And the biggest thing, you know, as a company, the CEO, the CFO, the HR, anybody part of that decision making framework also has a fiduciary duty.

00;11;35;09 - 00;11;41;28
Donovan Ryckis
But to the employees, right. So they have a duty of prudence, of loyalty,

00;11;41;28 - 00;11;42;12
Donovan Ryckis
of,

00;11;42;12 - 00;12;08;24
Donovan Ryckis
compliance. And as an advisor, the funny thing is, like the the employer who's trying to make that decision has that standard of care to their employees. And what we're starting to see now is health care lawsuits, employee against employer. But then the employer goes and hires a insurance salesman to consult them on a problem they don't understand, who doesn't have that standard of care to them.

00;12;08;26 - 00;12;37;13
Donovan Ryckis
So the standard of care for an insurance advisor is suitable. I mean, anything on the market that I can sell you that's a bona fide insurance product is suitable for you to purchase. It doesn't mean it's optimal. It doesn't mean it's meeting your goals. It doesn't mean it's sustainable. So this the flipping, bringing fiduciary into health care for us means that our fees are 100% transparent with the employer.

00;12;37;13 - 00;12;45;28
Donovan Ryckis
When we're making that arrangement, that there's no back end commission. That's going to make me prefer this carrier over that one.

00;12;45;28 - 00;12;56;23
Donovan Ryckis
And just kind of always working in their best interest, not having those, those kind of back door indirect compensation. That is just all over the industry.

00;12;56;25 - 00;13;14;19
Craig Andrews
Now, how does it, Okay. And before I go there, if I have a business that has fewer than 50 employees, am I exempt from the fiduciary rule? No. Really? Yeah. Designed by exempt. No.

00;13;14;21 - 00;13;31;03
Donovan Ryckis
No, but you are. You know, it is a little bit different because in that marketplace, you are going to be inherently more limited, right? You're likely going to be on a fully funded plan. And what you can do, your scope is limited. So there was some,

00;13;31;03 - 00;13;44;13
Donovan Ryckis
legislation in 2021, the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2021. And what that did was set forth like some minimum standards that employers are supposed to do to meet their fiduciary requirement.

00;13;44;15 - 00;14;05;13
Donovan Ryckis
So one of those things is eliminating gag clauses. Essentially what the insurance companies try to do to prevent any of that data coming to you is the employer to help you make a decision. So that first case that I got that was jacked right. Here's 37% increase. Can't tell you why I can't tell you what happened, how much it costs, what we're expecting for next year.

00;14;05;13 - 00;14;08;09
Donovan Ryckis
I can't tell you that. So gag clause.

00;14;08;09 - 00;14;08;18
Donovan Ryckis
Just,

00;14;08;18 - 00;14;15;13
Donovan Ryckis
Elimination. Right. Disclosing. Does my contract have guide clauses? Trying to remove those? Second thing was risk. So,

00;14;15;13 - 00;14;27;28
Donovan Ryckis
benchmarking of your pharmacy costs your top 50 drugs. So what are you paying through your pharmacy benefit manager versus cash prices versus other PBMs? And then the last thing was broker compensation disclosure.

00;14;27;28 - 00;14;31;29
Donovan Ryckis
Actually understanding that before you enter into an agreement.

00;14;32;01 - 00;14;36;14
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So,

00;14;36;14 - 00;14;40;13
Craig Andrews
nuts and bolts for employers. What?

00;14;40;13 - 00;14;46;22
Craig Andrews
So they have a they have a fiduciary responsibility. Who's the fiduciary?

00;14;46;24 - 00;14;51;17
Donovan Ryckis
So the fiduciary could be anybody that's part of the decision making process. If you have,

00;14;51;17 - 00;15;04;11
Donovan Ryckis
benefits committee, it could be that. But usually at minimum, it's going to be CEO, CFO, HR if they're all in that. So what we started to see starting January last year is lawsuits.

00;15;04;11 - 00;15;08;11
Donovan Ryckis
So it started with Johnson, and Johnson moved on to JP Morgan.

00;15;08;13 - 00;15;08;28
Donovan Ryckis
Or

00;15;08;28 - 00;15;10;17
Donovan Ryckis
Wells Fargo and

00;15;10;17 - 00;15;22;02
Donovan Ryckis
JP Morgan. And they not only included, you know, the CEO, CFO, HR, they included former HR. That helped make the decision last year personally. The

00;15;22;02 - 00;15;23;15
Donovan Ryckis
the board on,

00;15;23;15 - 00;15;25;24
Donovan Ryckis
the companies that helped and had a,

00;15;25;24 - 00;15;32;06
Donovan Ryckis
decision making process in that as well. So it kind of just depends how those decisions are made in each company.

00;15;32;08 - 00;15;37;11
Donovan Ryckis
But anybody that has a hand in it is is kind of person responsible?

00;15;37;14 - 00;15;39;17
Craig Andrews
Wow. Well,

00;15;39;17 - 00;15;50;04
Craig Andrews
so one of the things I've heard, that happens is the and it's kind clever because I know the insurance industry has,

00;15;50;04 - 00;16;07;27
Craig Andrews
pretty strict rebate laws, and it seems like they found a way around the rebate law. So a a health insurance provider won a PBM pharmacy benefit manager and pharmacy benefit manager will get rebates from the drug,

00;16;07;27 - 00;16;15;05
Craig Andrews
from the pharma companies, and then they'll kick that back to the health care company that, that owns them.

00;16;15;22 - 00;16;19;07
Craig Andrews
And like totally escapes the whole rebate rule.

00;16;19;10 - 00;16;19;25
Donovan Ryckis
Yeah.

00;16;19;25 - 00;16;35;27
Donovan Ryckis
Any fully funded plan will operate that way. So I mean, drugs might a lot of drugs are rebated at 50, 60, 70% of the cost of the drug. So the way they account for that in the end of the year, you know, they'll tell the employer, hey, you spent ten grand on this drug. If they account for it.

00;16;35;28 - 00;16;44;16
Donovan Ryckis
All right. So they'll say, hey, you spent ten grand, there's five grand or rebates coming back, but they don't credit that back to the cost of the drugs.

00;16;44;18 - 00;16;52;06
Craig Andrews
Well, how does fiduciary responsibility work out in terms of tracking through that?

00;16;52;09 - 00;17;20;01
Donovan Ryckis
So that's the majority of the lawsuits that we've seen early on have been about the pharmacy benefit manager, because that is a really, really easy part of your health care plan to fix. Like it is very easy to benchmark the cost of drugs. So when that first lawsuit came out in January last year, what I did is I went through the lawsuits like 120 pages about and they had referenced 35 drugs for Johnson and Johnson.

00;17;20;09 - 00;17;50;11
Donovan Ryckis
Johnson Johnson has like 160,000 employees. Okay. Yeah. So that referenced the cost that their PBM was paying for those drugs versus the cash price. And I took that cost of drugs, and I ran it against my clients that might only have 200 employees. And what we came out with was a 93% cost differential on what Johnson and Johnson's PBM was agreeing to pay versus what our clients were.

00;17;50;13 - 00;17;57;16
Craig Andrews
Wow. That's massive. Yeah. And I'm not a big fan of the,

00;17;57;16 - 00;18;03;28
Craig Andrews
the weight loss drugs, but a lot of people rely on those, and they're expensive.

00;18;04;01 - 00;18;07;12
Donovan Ryckis
Yeah. Most health care plans,

00;18;07;12 - 00;18;32;21
Donovan Ryckis
disallow them for the purposes of health care. You know, so for A1 diabetes, that kind of stuff, they'll usually allow it. Occasionally we'll see it. You know, we're we're going through one right now. The company has $10 million a year in drug spend and 3 million of it is GLP ones. Wow. So it's just been an astronomical category of drug spend recently.

00;18;32;24 - 00;18;45;13
Donovan Ryckis
I don't even know if, you know, we're kind of just starting at them. I don't know if they're aware that they're doing it for weight loss, if they've had that discussion, if they know how much of their spend it is. But, I mean, it's a huge problem.

00;18;45;16 - 00;18;47;09
Craig Andrews
You know, there's

00;18;47;09 - 00;18;51;02
Craig Andrews
I've known some people in GLP ones and,

00;18;51;02 - 00;19;04;07
Craig Andrews
I wouldn't say the brand on the on air here, but, you know, at one point I just told a family member who's post-menopausal, I said, you know, that one third of the weight loss is,

00;19;04;07 - 00;19;10;21
Craig Andrews
muscle limiter and bone bone mass. Yeah. And she had no idea.

00;19;10;24 - 00;19;30;10
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And I wonder, I mean, this is a little bit a, you know, a skew from what we're, we're talking about, but it seems like one of the things that we need to do to bring down health care cost is we need to figure out how to get people eating less and exercising more.

00;19;30;13 - 00;19;35;16
Donovan Ryckis
Yeah, certainly a component of it. And I've certainly seen that,

00;19;35;16 - 00;19;42;19
Donovan Ryckis
muscle loss on on friends and, you know, associates on GOP ones.

00;19;42;21 - 00;20;02;20
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And it's horrible. I mean, I told you earlier, I was just getting over the flu. I lost 5 pounds just with the flu. And I just I've felt in my my wife at one point said, you're getting really skinny and it doesn't look good. You know, she actually said, you look vulnerable. And I think it was all muscle.

00;20;02;27 - 00;20;03;22
Donovan Ryckis
Yeah.

00;20;03;24 - 00;20;04;22
Craig Andrews
Loss.

00;20;04;25 - 00;20;07;01
Donovan Ryckis
And imagine doing that for months.

00;20;07;03 - 00;20;10;00
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Yeah.

00;20;10;00 - 00;20;21;15
Craig Andrews
Is there a way, is there a way for health and to to work, fitness work, these type of things. Weight loss in the health care plans.

00;20;21;17 - 00;20;22;14
Donovan Ryckis
I mean, there is

00;20;22;14 - 00;20;39;07
Donovan Ryckis
that was a trend. I'd say, you know, 5 to 10 years ago, a lot of focus on wellness with the way people change jobs, like it's it's a very, you know, it's it's more of like a HR and engagement thing than it is like a cost reduction measure.

00;20;39;07 - 00;20;46;22
Donovan Ryckis
With the way turnover is and you know, people don't stay at their jobs for their entire life like they used to.

00;20;46;25 - 00;20;56;10
Donovan Ryckis
So it's very hard to tie any type of wellness program to any measurable change in health care spend.

00;20;56;12 - 00;20;57;01
Craig Andrews
You know.

00;20;57;03 - 00;21;00;10
Donovan Ryckis
I wish there was. But, you know, the way we view that is more of,

00;21;00;10 - 00;21;20;01
Donovan Ryckis
an engagement, something good to do for the employees. But, you know, for my purposes, I'm usually focusing on the things that I can absolutely do. Because fundamentally, the problem with most health care plan design is when the broker brings another renewal increase. Their suggestions are what can the employees do for you to reduce it?

00;21;20;01 - 00;21;47;09
Donovan Ryckis
So they tell the employer, you need to tell your people to use telemedicine more. They should be using urgent care instead of the E.R., and they should be filling generic trucks. Now, all those things are good policy, and you should be, you know, putting that out there. But that's the question of what can the employees do for you as the employer, when the employer has all the leverage to make good decisions to affect the employees?

00;21;47;12 - 00;21;57;21
Donovan Ryckis
So wellness and workout programs and all that stuff is great. But what we focus on is like as the employer, what can we do to make sure employees have low costs,

00;21;57;21 - 00;22;06;12
Donovan Ryckis
high access and, and good health care, navigation? And then, you know, maybe a wellness program.

00;22;06;14 - 00;22;15;08
Craig Andrews
Now, the plans you put together, do those have deductibles? I know some folks are driving down deductibles. What's what are you doing?

00;22;15;11 - 00;22;36;12
Donovan Ryckis
Yeah. Yeah, we try to. So it kind of depends on where we start from. Right. So rather than this being a reactive annual, you know, kind of nine months out quick make a decision. We're putting out a five year business plan essentially for the health care spend. It is a business unit like we mentioned earlier before we kind of went on air.

00;22;36;12 - 00;23;01;28
Donovan Ryckis
It's it's usually the second or third highest cost in a business. So it deserves and it needs that kind of planning. So we're trying to get there. We also do direct primary care a lot where employees have access to their primary same day next day, you know, 30 60 minute visit times. They can do bloodwork. Their stitches get generic medicines, like a very comprehensive,

00;23;01;28 - 00;23;04;17
Donovan Ryckis
visit that helps a lot as well.

00;23;04;19 - 00;23;08;13
Donovan Ryckis
And then another thing we use that I think is really, really underutilized is,

00;23;08;13 - 00;23;32;02
Donovan Ryckis
501. Our programs Bible. One of our programs is a financial assistance program for all not for profit hospitals that already exist. It's a federal program. They have to have it. And employees can qualify for either partial or full assistance of their entire deductible. So whatever their cost share is, that can be covered by the hospital.

00;23;32;03 - 00;23;53;16
Donovan Ryckis
It's just that hospitals don't share that they don't want to get that program out there. So we kind of assist in the communication, but also the support of filling that out, getting that done for for the employees. And that's something great that we can do right away. And the income limits are actually pretty high. If you're talking about like a family of 2 or 3, you know.

00;23;53;18 - 00;23;57;17
Craig Andrews
Well, that's that's cool.

00;24;01;05 - 00;24;05;25
Craig Andrews
What would be some, you know, save for an employer that's,

00;24;05;25 - 00;24;10;23
Craig Andrews
you know, they've been looking at they've been seeing their health care expense go up.

00;24;10;23 - 00;24;19;22
Craig Andrews
You know, a lot of them are, I think, you know, trying to figure out whether to pass it off to the employees or what to do is can they afford it anymore.

00;24;19;25 - 00;24;31;03
Craig Andrews
So as we kind of wrap up, what would be for for employers listening? What would be your advice to them?

00;24;31;06 - 00;24;52;28
Donovan Ryckis
You know, it's the simplest answer is, is the right one. It's in the claims. So it's funny, when I started telling HR that I was like, this so simple is going to make sense, right? Like what we need to do is reduce the frequency and severity of claims. However, when companies heard that they heard reduce the frequency and severity of medical conditions.

00;24;53;00 - 00;25;17;13
Donovan Ryckis
Right. Like what the employees have, that's not what we're talking about at all. A claim is a request for dollars for a covered incident, and those dollars can be wildly variable. I know you had that experience with with the hospital visits in the past two, right? I think everybody has the if we send ten people in the same hospital with the same condition, same age, same sex, but ten different insurance cards, we leave with ten different rates, right?

00;25;17;13 - 00;25;47;04
Donovan Ryckis
Yeah. Everybody's gonna have a different amount that they owe that. Also, the insurance company owes. So same thing with drugs. Understanding that the costs are variable. If you don't know where you benchmark in that, I promise you it's not on the good end. And we've given that responsibility up to our health insurance companies, assuming that they want to keep costs low because they want to keep us as a client, and their job is to keep the cost of health care low.

00;25;47;07 - 00;26;15;00
Donovan Ryckis
But that's not what we've seen. And kind of what I, what I leave with people and I try to even open up meetings with this kind of thought in this consideration, is that the purpose of any system is what it does. So we can't say the purpose of a system is something that it repeatedly fails to do. So I don't think we can say that the purpose of health insurance is to keep the cost of care low.

00;26;15;02 - 00;26;43;17
Donovan Ryckis
If we looked at the past 20 years, they're utterly failing in that, or that's not the purpose. So with that in mind, getting to the bottom of the actual claim costs, demanding that transparency and then understanding those costs because for a lot of companies, if they do get data, they'll get stuff that says like, all right, this year you spent $227,000 in heart, 160 in spine.

00;26;43;19 - 00;27;01;20
Donovan Ryckis
It's like, what does that mean? Like is that 168 chiropractors? Like, do we do spinal fusions? Like what's going on here? Right. We have to understand what is the actual procedures. What do we pay? What's the benchmark in my area, in my state? What can I do to improve that?

00;27;01;22 - 00;27;06;29
Craig Andrews
And cool. Well, if somebody wants to talk to you about their, their health,

00;27;06;29 - 00;27;10;11
Craig Andrews
plan, their company plan, how did they reach you?

00;27;10;14 - 00;27;12;11
Donovan Ryckis
LinkedIn is probably the best.

00;27;12;11 - 00;27;16;16
Donovan Ryckis
Also, our website ethos benefits.com and I have the,

00;27;16;16 - 00;27;19;03
Donovan Ryckis
the documentary up there as well for screening.

00;27;19;05 - 00;27;25;27
Craig Andrews
Right. That was going to be my next question. So if I want to see the documentary, it's on your LinkedIn page or

00;27;25;27 - 00;27;33;06
Donovan Ryckis
If it's not on my LinkedIn page, I'll put it on there today. Actually, I'm not really sure, but it's on our website. Ethos benefits.com. You can find,

00;27;33;06 - 00;27;40;26
Donovan Ryckis
the website from my LinkedIn. If not. And it's under there. The film is called it's not personal. It's just health care.

00;27;40;26 - 00;27;54;28
Donovan Ryckis
Really goes through this problem from all perspectives. You know, hospitals, insurance executives, physicians, nurses, pharmacy benefit managers kind of explaining each their piece of the problem, but also a framework for getting out of it.

00;27;55;00 - 00;28;11;27
Craig Andrews
Wow. Well, Donovan, I really appreciate what you're doing. I think, you know, I told you in the green room, I don't think the system can bear under bear up under its own weight over the next five, 5 to 6 years. And I think what you're doing,

00;28;11;27 - 00;28;18;15
Craig Andrews
is not just helping employers, but I think you guys are building a life raft to help us find the path forward in health care in this country.

00;28;18;17 - 00;28;20;17
Craig Andrews
So thanks for that. And,

00;28;20;17 - 00;28;24;05
Craig Andrews
I do hope people reach out to you. Thanks for coming. Layers and legacies.

00;28;24;07 - 00;28;26;12
Donovan Ryckis
So thank you, Craig.

00;28;26;12 - 00;28;53;06
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Ally's for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this

00;28;53;06 - 00;28;55;01
Craig Andrews
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00;28;55;03 - 00;29;18;15
Craig Andrews
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00;29;18;17 - 00;29;26;22
Craig Andrews
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00;29;26;22 - 00;31;28;25
Craig Andrews
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