Lee Pepper brings battlefield-tested leadership into the boardroom. In this episode, Lee breaks down how military strategies—some dating back to the Romans—can drive success in today’s marketing and business landscape. Drawing from his Army background, time at Fort Knox, and career in behavioral healthcare marketing, Lee explains how setting clear intent and empowering teams to execute leads to superior outcomes.

He makes the case for clarity over control and strategy over tactics. Citing leaders like Patton, Schwarzkopf, and Ross Perot, Lee calls out the real enemy: indecision. Whether in combat or campaign strategy, action wins. Leadership isn’t about managing from a spreadsheet—it’s about removing barriers and letting your people attack the mission.

Lee also dives into how old-school intelligence gathering—listening to 10,000+ sales calls—has given him insights that most companies miss. His advice is simple and sharp: stop micromanaging, start trusting, and use history as your manual.

Want to learn more about Lee Pepper's work? Check out their website at https://www.NeverOutmatchedBook.com.

Connect with Lee Pepper on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/leepepper/.

Key Points & Timestamps

• [00:01:04] Lee’s unique background in the Army and marketing

• [00:06:01] Applying ancient military strategies (e.g., hammer and anvil) in business

• [00:09:04] Innovation starts with giving teams permission to act

• [00:10:28] Training in the Army: decision-making under pressure

• [00:11:29] 99% of Americans haven’t served—why military mental models are fresh for most business leaders

• [00:14:09] Strategy vs. tactics: why leaders must define the mission, not the method

• [00:16:29] What holds leaders back from letting go: fear and lack of trust

• [00:18:05] Bureaucracy kills innovation—how Ross Perot’s leadership style avoided it

• [00:20:10] You can’t lead from behind a spreadsheet

• [00:21:12] “Management by walking around” and Sam Walton’s donut diplomacy

• [00:22:05] How deep intelligence-gathering shaped Lee’s success

• [00:24:19] Better data starts with better listening—why Lee listened to 10,000+ phone calls

• [00:26:14] Training, not tools, builds high-performing teams

• [00:28:08] Summary of Lee’s core leadership message: set the strategy, then get out of the way

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment in my career.

00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;10
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on this show.

00;00;51;10 - 00;01;04;02
Craig Andrews
Today I want to welcome Lee Pepper. He is the author of Never Outmatched Military Strategies to Lead, innovate, and Win the Modern Marketing Battlefield. Lee brings a,

00;01;04;02 - 00;01;13;12
Craig Andrews
combined experience to the United States Army. It and marketing to build great teams and leaders. And he currently consults,

00;01;13;12 - 00;01;23;14
Craig Andrews
in marketing and operations in specializing in behavioral health care. And Lee and I were chatting a little bit in the green room before this.

00;01;23;17 - 00;01;26;25
Craig Andrews
And if you're a leader, you definitely need to listen in.

00;01;26;25 - 00;01;36;00
Craig Andrews
Because I think maybe it may challenge some of your beliefs. Maybe not, but I think it's going to be awesome. Lee, welcome.

00;01;36;02 - 00;01;38;22
Lee Pepper
Thank you so much, Craig. Happy to be here.

00;01;38;24 - 00;01;41;15
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So. So obviously, you,

00;01;41;15 - 00;01;44;14
Craig Andrews
you know, we were kind chatting it up. You were in the, the Army.

00;01;44;14 - 00;01;46;15
Craig Andrews
I was in the Marines. We welcome you guys also.

00;01;46;22 - 00;01;51;03
Lee Pepper
Yes. And what is that, Craig? They say like you're,

00;01;51;03 - 00;01;53;13
Lee Pepper
you're not an ex-Marine. You're former marine. Or

00;01;53;13 - 00;01;54;20
Lee Pepper
do I have it backwards?

00;01;54;23 - 00;01;55;27
Craig Andrews
Now you have it, right? Yeah.

00;01;55;28 - 00;01;56;16
Lee Pepper
What's the marine.

00;01;56;16 - 00;01;58;18
Craig Andrews
Always a marine. Yeah. And,

00;01;58;18 - 00;02;02;10
Craig Andrews
Yeah, as a matter of fact, on, you know, on LinkedIn this morning,

00;02;02;10 - 00;02;06;02
Craig Andrews
I tagged a marine in a post and,

00;02;06;02 - 00;02;10;18
Craig Andrews
and he, you know, he threw a little Semper Fi. That's how we greet each other.

00;02;10;18 - 00;02;16;11
Craig Andrews
It's it's a very, very good brotherhood. It was an exceptional time in my life.

00;02;16;13 - 00;02;17;23
Craig Andrews
But anyway,

00;02;17;23 - 00;02;19;27
Craig Andrews
so what did you do in the army?

00;02;20;00 - 00;02;23;05
Lee Pepper
So I enlisted when I took a year out of college.

00;02;23;05 - 00;02;30;27
Lee Pepper
My sophomore year, I enlisted as a 76 Yankee supply clerk. So while I was enlisted, I was in Quartermaster Corps. And,

00;02;30;27 - 00;02;42;00
Lee Pepper
after a couple of years, I was getting close to finishing my degree. I had the opportunity to go to officer candidate School and then got commissioned as an army officer, then went to Fort Knox for Armor School.

00;02;42;00 - 00;02;44;10
Lee Pepper
And then I was assigned to a Civil Affairs,

00;02;44;10 - 00;02;49;16
Lee Pepper
battalion. And that's where I completed most of my service in the reserves in civil affairs.

00;02;49;19 - 00;02;52;07
Craig Andrews
Okay. Armor officer.

00;02;52;07 - 00;03;03;18
Craig Andrews
So I'm trying to nail that down. So in the Marines, when I think of armor is that's, you know, when we went to the range every year, we had to go down to the armory, check out a weapon, and.

00;03;03;20 - 00;03;05;29
Lee Pepper
Know that's driving the M1's.

00;03;06;01 - 00;03;07;22
Craig Andrews
Driving the M1's. Oh.

00;03;07;24 - 00;03;15;27
Lee Pepper
So, in fact, in armor school, we had three Marines because the Marines don't have their own tank school, so they use the Army tank school. So I had the chance to,

00;03;15;27 - 00;03;16;25
Lee Pepper
to serve with,

00;03;16;25 - 00;03;19;23
Lee Pepper
three Marines, the, you know, back in 1992 that were in,

00;03;19;23 - 00;03;21;05
Lee Pepper
armor school with me.

00;03;21;07 - 00;03;22;24
Craig Andrews
Wow. And,

00;03;22;24 - 00;03;23;26
Craig Andrews
Oh, heck, I just,

00;03;23;26 - 00;03;35;07
Craig Andrews
H.R. McMaster, did you ever serve under him? No. Yeah, because he was he was moving. He was, what, like a lieutenant or a captain in the first Gulf War?

00;03;35;10 - 00;03;36;23
Lee Pepper
Yeah. So that would have been,

00;03;36;23 - 00;03;41;14
Lee Pepper
yeah, I did. Yeah. I mean, maybe our paths crossed, but I didn't. I didn't work with him.

00;03;41;17 - 00;03;54;00
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So, yeah, I, I think, you know, I think this will tie in to where, where we're ultimately going. You know, the, there had been in that battle, you know, so you remember

00;03;54;00 - 00;04;09;26
Craig Andrews
for those that don't remember you, of course remember, you know, we they use the Marines as a distraction. They had they had, the Iraqis thinking the Marines were going to do an amphibious assault, and the Marines were out there doing all these exercises, kicking up a bunch of water,

00;04;09;26 - 00;04;11;03
Craig Andrews
to get their focus there.

00;04;11;04 - 00;04;12;09
Craig Andrews
Meanwhile,

00;04;12;09 - 00;04;16;13
Craig Andrews
the M1 went around the northern side of Kuwait City,

00;04;16;13 - 00;04;21;01
Craig Andrews
kind of box to men, kicked butts and took names, and they told

00;04;21;01 - 00;04;36;26
Craig Andrews
the instructions were there were certain lines you couldn't cross. And I think one of them was you can't cross into Iraq. And, and for those that don't remember, I mean was from one way was one aspect of was amazingly wonderful.

00;04;36;26 - 00;04;42;03
Craig Andrews
But another aspect that really worried me because I called it War by Nintendo. Yeah. Those

00;04;42;03 - 00;04;49;02
Craig Andrews
ones could shoot a Soviet T-72 while I was going 50mph bouncing over the desert.

00;04;50;07 - 00;05;00;26
Craig Andrews
And it was just knocking out one T-72 after another. And one point H.R. McMaster crossed into Iraq and came back.

00;05;02;18 - 00;05;15;23
Lee Pepper
And I think you know Craig what's so fascinating is I mean this is 3040 year old technology in that amazing what we were doing back then. I mean the ones with the with the jet pack engines and just the speed and the weight. I mean, it's

00;05;15;23 - 00;05;21;27
Lee Pepper
there was an unbelievable machine. Yeah. And I have to imagine that, that today's versions are probably so,

00;05;21;27 - 00;05;29;21
Lee Pepper
advanced with, with some of their, you know, systems that are now a lot more computerized than when, you know, when you and I were in.

00;05;29;23 - 00;05;33;03
Craig Andrews
Well, yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, oh my goodness.

00;05;33;03 - 00;05;40;21
Craig Andrews
Yeah, we we were. Yeah. The tech is just insane how far it's gone.

00;05;40;24 - 00;06;01;18
Lee Pepper
And and you know, Craig, you know, we were talking in the, in the green room when we got started. I mean, you know that I mentioned that that battle and elements of that battle kind of what you just described, you know, that was a classic tactic or strategy that Schwarzkopf implemented there called the anvil and hammer. It was something used by the Carthaginians or was used by the Greeks, by the Romans.

00;06;01;20 - 00;06;22;29
Lee Pepper
And here we are, 2000, 3000 years later, and Schwarzkopf was applying that similar strategy to great effect, you know, in a modern battlefield. And I think that's what I was so excited when I was writing this book, and I was like, wow, I really got to do some research on the anvil, a hammer, because it's something that I like to use as a great metaphor in business.

00;06;23;01 - 00;06;43;17
Lee Pepper
And that's where I'm. I'm so excited about some of the things that are written for veterans who have served, who may struggle sometimes with knowing how, how do I convert? What I've learned in the military to the business world. And I and I think sometimes people struggle there and I, I think in my book I've laid out a number of elements that maybe some people don't think about that.

00;06;43;17 - 00;06;45;25
Lee Pepper
Wow, that could really work in business.

00;06;45;27 - 00;06;58;16
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, then the other wonderful thing that I think you were pointing out is you don't have to reinvent the wheel. There's a playbook out there for almost anything you want to do.

00;06;59;13 - 00;07;12;07
Craig Andrews
You may just have to translate it to, to the modern environment or the current environment or to something else. But there are proven strategies that have been used again and again over the course of history.

00;07;12;10 - 00;07;13;19
Lee Pepper
I get asked a lot,

00;07;13;19 - 00;07;34;13
Lee Pepper
you know, in interviews or you know, by, by, you know, people that are using me as a coach. You know what what what are you reading right now? What do you have in your nightstand? And I always laugh. I have an 1895 copy of Caesar's Commentaries on the Gallic War, and I regularly am reading different pages of that because I'm always finding inspiration,

00;07;34;13 - 00;07;37;17
Lee Pepper
you know, to something that was written, you know, a couple thousand years ago.

00;07;37;19 - 00;07;43;14
Craig Andrews
Yeah. I don't know if you remember General Gray. He was commandant in the Marine Corps.

00;07;43;14 - 00;07;51;13
Craig Andrews
I think right about the time you were going in the Army. But he he decided two things. He felt like the Marine Corps had become soft.

00;07;51;13 - 00;07;55;07
Craig Andrews
And and so he wanted to turn the Marines back into warriors.

00;07;55;07 - 00;07;57;10
Craig Andrews
But he also felt like they weren't reading enough.

00;07;57;10 - 00;07;58;18
Craig Andrews
And so,

00;07;58;18 - 00;08;02;13
Craig Andrews
he put on the required reading list for and CEOs that you had to read,

00;08;02;13 - 00;08;03;26
Craig Andrews
the Art of warfare.

00;08;03;26 - 00;08;07;00
Craig Andrews
2000 year old book.

00;08;07;03 - 00;08;18;19
Lee Pepper
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, I think when you think about some of the Sun Tzu's writings, I mean, you know, one of the examples I have in the book of Joan of Arc and a lot of people, you know, we don't have a lot of contemporary,

00;08;18;19 - 00;08;24;21
Lee Pepper
commentary from Joan of Arc from back then. A lot of it is what people said they heard, you know, during her trial or from, you know, the people.

00;08;24;21 - 00;08;27;13
Lee Pepper
But you know, her big her big,

00;08;27;13 - 00;08;47;16
Lee Pepper
innovation was that she just had the, the guts to go to King Philip and just request if they could actually go on the offensive one day, could they attack the British? That was all she was asking was they had been for years. Had been defense, defense, defense trying to negotiate, negotiate, negotiate.

00;08;47;18 - 00;08;56;10
Lee Pepper
And it was a war of attrition for them. And they were losing. And she just went to request from the King. Could that could we just attack today? That was her one big innovation.

00;08;56;10 - 00;09;04;23
Lee Pepper
And I find that in business sometimes. You know, Craig, we're so busy trying to do these very complicated, you know, processes when maybe it's just.

00;09;04;28 - 00;09;12;28
Lee Pepper
Could you let your team attack today? Could you let them go on the offensive today? Like maybe maybe that's the big innovation.

00;09;13;01 - 00;09;18;00
Craig Andrews
Well, well, in my book that should be like every day. I hate it when when,

00;09;18;00 - 00;09;32;16
Craig Andrews
I had some sales guys come to me once. This was back when I was marketing semiconductors for mobile phones, and we had a new product that was just killing it. We were kicking butt and taking names, and the sales guys came to me and they were quivering and they were like, Craig,

00;09;32;16 - 00;09;35;05
Craig Andrews
our competitors out there bashing us to the customers.

00;09;35;10 - 00;09;37;02
Craig Andrews
They're telling them how they're taking on

00;09;37;02 - 00;09;37;29
Craig Andrews
unbelievable risk,

00;09;37;29 - 00;09;52;17
Craig Andrews
to design in this product. I looked at him. I said, guys, that's fantastic news. And they're like. And they looked at me like I lost my mind. Yeah, we've earned the right to be bashed. Yeah, yeah. Now let's attack.

00;09;52;19 - 00;10;12;15
Lee Pepper
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know the opening paragraph of the book, once you get to the preface in the foreword is I relate the very first day that we were inside an M1 Abrams. And, you know, here we are. You know, I was a young lieutenant butter bar all the ego. But, you know, of course, you know, all the NCOs.

00;10;12;15 - 00;10;20;24
Lee Pepper
They know they know they're really running the show, you know, not the lieutenant, but, you know, we're we're in that M1. And back then the,

00;10;20;24 - 00;10;21;03
Lee Pepper
the,

00;10;21;03 - 00;10;28;11
Lee Pepper
the NCOs, they were sitting in a chair welded to the top of the M1, and they had, you know, they were miked in so they could, you know, kind of give us some advice.

00;10;28;11 - 00;10;47;17
Lee Pepper
And that very first day they start yelling, you know, they're counting down, okay, five, 4321. What are you going to do now, Lieutenant? What are you gonna do now? And the whole thing they were trying to drill into us was to make a decision. And it wasn't necessarily you're going to make the right decision or the best decision, but it's that you were not going to be.

00;10;47;17 - 00;11;04;27
Lee Pepper
You were not going to be panicked. You're not going to be frozen. And I find that in business, I use that example all the time. It's like, I don't care that if you try something and it doesn't work well, great. We're going to no, we don't do that again. But sometimes the biggest, challenge to people is the is the indecision.

00;11;05;02 - 00;11;21;24
Lee Pepper
That's what will get you overrun in a battle situation or will cause you to lose in a training situation. Is this indecision? And that's what I find in business a lot. I'm always trying to coach people to don't let the status quo be, you know, be what you're working towards. You have to make a decision.

00;11;21;26 - 00;11;29;02
Craig Andrews
A great Army general once said a good plan violently executed today beats a perfect plan executed next week.

00;11;29;02 - 00;11;53;06
Lee Pepper
Absolutely, absolutely. And and I quote a lot, you know, from Patton and from Eisenhower and I think that there's still and you know what's interesting, Craig? Less than 1% of Americans will serve in the military. And I don't say that as a judgment on our society. It's just where we are in an all volunteer army. But that's what means is that 99% of folks have not heard these things, that to you and I are pretty common.

00;11;53;13 - 00;12;07;26
Lee Pepper
You know, it's kind of native to us because we've grown up in that world. And so that's where I, I think that I hope that the general population and that the way I've written this and I've tried to explain it as a mental model, will make it very accessible to people.

00;12;07;28 - 00;12;09;17
Craig Andrews
So one

00;12;09;17 - 00;12;11;18
Craig Andrews
valid point. Absolutely.

00;12;11;18 - 00;12;19;28
Craig Andrews
I just have to throw out one point of clarification. In the Marine Corps, they didn't teach us anything that somebody said in the Army. I had to learn that once I got

00;12;19;28 - 00;12;28;11
Craig Andrews
out of the Marines because. No, no, we're studying Chesty Puller. We're not studying Patton. But yes, the genius.

00;12;28;13 - 00;12;32;11
Lee Pepper
Yeah, that's that's that's amazing. And I think that that's sometimes one of my,

00;12;32;11 - 00;12;53;28
Lee Pepper
one of the things that I most memorable about when my time when I was working for Ross Perot and I worked on his presidential campaigns, and I worked for Perot Systems. And, you know, Perot hired a lot of people from the military. And so we were all, you're always in a room where there was a marine, Navy, Air Force, army, and it was always before the meetings and start there always be some banter.

00;12;54;01 - 00;12;57;17
Lee Pepper
We always had a great time. I always enjoy that. That brotherhood.

00;12;57;20 - 00;13;03;07
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, there's a there's another patent quote that I love. Absolutely love.

00;13;03;07 - 00;13;05;13
Craig Andrews
And speaking of old books, I'm going plug a book.

00;13;05;13 - 00;13;06;08
Craig Andrews
An old book,

00;13;06;08 - 00;13;20;09
Craig Andrews
War as I knew it, which, you know, Peyton's wife took letters that he had sent her during the war and compiled them into a book. And one of the letters he told his wife, he said, I'm trying to teach the men the difference between strategy and tactics.

00;13;20;11 - 00;13;33;18
Craig Andrews
Yeah. What strategy? I try to teach them to be like a steamroller. You said direction and go, but with tactics you don't use a steamroller strategy. You respond to the situation, you grab them by the nose and kick them in the pants.

00;13;33;18 - 00;13;36;05
Craig Andrews
Which I imagine was quite vulgar in the 1940s.

00;13;36;10 - 00;13;38;10
Lee Pepper
Right, right, right.

00;13;38;12 - 00;13;41;00
Craig Andrews
So what's, what's that mean. What was he talking about.

00;13;41;03 - 00;13;50;25
Lee Pepper
Well I think that what would the way I have applied it in modern day business is that we all have these great platforms. And,

00;13;50;25 - 00;14;09;22
Lee Pepper
when you think about, you know, for marketing, whether it's, you know, doing SEO or CRM through paid search or whether it's doing, you know, some of the platforms like TikTok and Instagram and YouTube, what ends up happening is we think we have a strategy, but all we're doing is jumping from platform to platform to platform, tactic to tactic to tactic.

00;14;09;22 - 00;14;26;02
Lee Pepper
And we wonder why things are not sticking, why things are not working. And so that's why I always challenge in the book and also challenge people that I work with. You know, coaching today is that we need to back we need to take a step back and we need to understand the strategy. And that's where I get into what we were talking about earlier with commander's intent.

00;14;26;08 - 00;14;45;15
Lee Pepper
We have to set the commander's intent. What is the mission? But you have to let your staff, your lieutenants, your captains, you have to let them go and execute. And they may be moving around and that's great. Let them let them be innovative. So that's what that that's what that means to me. And you know, Craig, I've had a great opportunity with this book coming out.

00;14;45;17 - 00;14;46;11
Lee Pepper
I've gotten to,

00;14;46;11 - 00;14;47;13
Lee Pepper
to network with,

00;14;47;13 - 00;14;49;05
Lee Pepper
Patton's grandson, Benjamin.

00;14;49;08 - 00;14;49;27
Craig Andrews
No way.

00;14;50;03 - 00;14;57;05
Lee Pepper
He's doing some amazing things. He's based out of New York now. He's doing some amazing things where he's recording veterans stories. And so,

00;14;57;05 - 00;15;09;08
Lee Pepper
that was just one of these these things. When you write a book and you start doing talks like, you just never know who you're going to run into and meet. So that's one of the things that I was, you know, very excited about when I, when I first started getting in touch with him.

00;15;09;11 - 00;15;17;25
Craig Andrews
All right. Let's go conspiratorial for just just a second. Then we'll get back to the real world. Yeah. Was Patton killed or did they die?

00;15;17;27 - 00;15;21;06
Lee Pepper
You know, I you know, I forgot the name of the author, but I read the book,

00;15;21;06 - 00;15;25;13
Lee Pepper
that was claiming that the the immigrant that had the that caused the wreck,

00;15;25;13 - 00;15;27;26
Lee Pepper
was somehow maybe a Russian, you know,

00;15;27;26 - 00;15;29;20
Lee Pepper
spy or connected. So

00;15;29;20 - 00;15;36;04
Lee Pepper
I, I don't know if I have a, you know, I think personally, I just believe that there was an accident and it was it was a sad accident.

00;15;36;04 - 00;15;42;24
Lee Pepper
He didn't have a seatbelt on, and he broke his neck and, you know, really suffered for for many months before he finally passed. So,

00;15;42;24 - 00;15;51;22
Lee Pepper
I'm not sure that I completely buy in, but it's also one of those things where I'm not sure I will ever know. It's kind of like the Kennedy assassination.

00;15;51;22 - 00;15;53;04
Lee Pepper
I don't know if I'm ever going to know.

00;15;53;04 - 00;15;58;12
Lee Pepper
And so I just don't spend a lot of mental cycles on it. But. But it is interesting reading.

00;15;58;14 - 00;16;02;25
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. All right, let's get back to the real,

00;16;02;27 - 00;16;06;19
Lee Pepper
And, Craig, you told me. Hey, is anything off limits? And see, I honor that.

00;16;06;21 - 00;16;29;26
Craig Andrews
Yeah. That's, so I, I want to explore this this leading versus managing, you know, setting the strategy and giving people, you know, giving people the latitude to do things. What does that look like in practice and what keeps people frozen up from doing that?

00;16;29;28 - 00;16;48;15
Lee Pepper
Yeah. So it was a couple things in that question, I think, Craig, I think the first thing is that, you know, leaders, you know, leaders are leading people, you know, manager or managing things. I've got a great quote from Admiral. You know, where I'm a Grace Hopper, you know, who is famous, you know, quote there. I think that for me, what I'm always trying to,

00;16;48;15 - 00;16;51;18
Lee Pepper
get across to teams that that I've led,

00;16;51;18 - 00;17;04;00
Lee Pepper
is that I'm going to set what the mission is, but because, like, I'm 56, Craig, there are amazing platforms that are just spinning up today that I'm not an expert on.

00;17;04;00 - 00;17;20;18
Lee Pepper
But guess what? There might be a younger person millennial who is an expert. I have to trust them. I've set the mission. We've established what the parameters are, the scaffolding so we know what the budget is. We know what the schedule is. We know what good compliance, good governance. So that way we're not going to get out of bounds.

00;17;20;18 - 00;17;42;25
Lee Pepper
But I have to let them go and accomplish it because, you know, when you're in a training exercise or on the battlefield, you never know what's going to be thrown at you. You could have weather, terrain you didn't know about, you could lose communication. And you're the leader is not always going to be there. You have to make sure that your captains and your lieutenants have that freedom of movement to go exercise and complete the mission.

00;17;43;02 - 00;18;05;09
Lee Pepper
And so many times in business, we let things like governance and compliance right, get in the way of innovation. And that's why I said earlier you cannot command innovation. And so when if you're listening to this, you're going, I wonder why my team is not innovative. I would challenge you to think that you're probably because you're micromanaging, or you have a bureaucracy that is strangling that innovation.

00;18;05;09 - 00;18;13;28
Lee Pepper
And Ross Perot, we would be in our offices and you would see him in the hallway, right. And and he always would say, you know, that,

00;18;13;28 - 00;18;25;07
Lee Pepper
bureaucracy is like a snake. And he would always go, you know, what do you do with a snake? You call it like he he would just say things like that to us, you know, and and I think that's the other thing too, that I write about the,

00;18;25;07 - 00;18;26;21
Lee Pepper
the Kasserine Pass debacle.

00;18;26;27 - 00;18;46;14
Lee Pepper
You know, when the Americans first went into North Africa during World War Two, and that was when Patton Eisenhower put patent in charge. And within 90 days we had ousted the Nazis. And so that was where somebody like Patton, he had a real demonstrable effect on the outcome of our success in World War two, because he didn't wait around.

00;18;46;17 - 00;19;05;22
Lee Pepper
He didn't wait for the status quo. He went and attacked, you know, right away. And I think that sometimes as business leaders, we're nervous, you know, about letting these people we've hired, that we've invested that we've, you know, train like sometimes we're we're holding them back too much is what I see a lot.

00;19;05;25 - 00;19;08;22
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, and something I heard,

00;19;08;22 - 00;19;10;22
Craig Andrews
I'm trying to remember the term that was used. So,

00;19;10;22 - 00;19;17;23
Craig Andrews
Patton wasn't an analytical. He was more just kind of. Yeah, he had a little bit of an impulsive nature.

00;19;17;23 - 00;19;24;11
Craig Andrews
And one of the things that made him formidable against the Germans was the Germans were sitting around trying to analyze what he was doing and make sense of it.

00;19;24;13 - 00;19;26;15
Craig Andrews
And while they were analyzing he was kicked in there.

00;19;26;15 - 00;19;40;00
Lee Pepper
But yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, that was one of the things that your major, General Friedan Hall, he was the one that led the American forces there in Tunisia, in the Kasserine Pass. You know, he was he was commanding,

00;19;40;00 - 00;19;49;18
Lee Pepper
from a fortified bunker many miles from the front line. And that was something that Patton was not in his nature like that and was was on the front line.

00;19;49;18 - 00;19;53;05
Lee Pepper
He was hearing from the troops, the good, the bad, the ugly.

00;19;53;05 - 00;19;57;01
Lee Pepper
He was he was personally getting involved in getting,

00;19;57;01 - 00;19;59;20
Lee Pepper
the tanks, you know, additional armament.

00;19;59;20 - 00;20;10;05
Lee Pepper
He was personally involved in making sure that they actually had air cover that the British had promised that hadn't hadn't been there. So we in business cannot lead from behind a spreadsheet.

00;20;10;08 - 00;20;20;21
Lee Pepper
And so I think sometimes we get stuck. I mean, when I was at foundations, I used to drive some of my, my C-suite partners nuts because I worked in an open environment. I was there on the floor,

00;20;20;21 - 00;20;27;24
Lee Pepper
and, you know, we had it, you know, when we sold to us, we had 30 people in marketing, and I was there on the floor with them and a lot of my,

00;20;27;24 - 00;20;30;22
Lee Pepper
compatriots that were in the C-suite, they didn't know how I did it.

00;20;30;25 - 00;20;46;22
Lee Pepper
And so part of it is, you know, you have to be disciplined. But my team knew I was there. And also I was picking up on things. I was hearing things that were going on so I could I couldn't do their job, but I could remove barriers for them. Like I could get involved, remove barriers so they could go and complete the mission.

00;20;46;29 - 00;21;06;01
Lee Pepper
And I think that a lot of times we're too easily stuck sitting in an office trying to manage behind a spreadsheet instead of maybe doing the management by walking around. And that was something I learned very early on at Perot Systems from Ross personally, was that he was he would just pop in and it would it would drive some people nuts, because you just never know what somebody's going to say to Ross.

00;21;06;01 - 00;21;12;22
Lee Pepper
And it's going to be is he going to embarrass me, or are they going to say they don't like something? But that was really key to his leadership style. And I think patterns.

00;21;12;24 - 00;21;13;11
Craig Andrews
Well,

00;21;13;11 - 00;21;14;14
Craig Andrews
Sam Walton,

00;21;14;14 - 00;21;27;08
Craig Andrews
if you've never read, no. Sorry, wrong book. If you've never read Made in America, it's great book. He would. One of his favorite things to do was pick up a box of donuts and go to the,

00;21;27;08 - 00;21;31;02
Craig Andrews
to the truck depots, and he would take the truck Drivers depot,

00;21;31;02 - 00;21;34;20
Craig Andrews
donuts and sit with them, have coffee and donuts.

00;21;34;22 - 00;21;43;24
Craig Andrews
And he said he got the best Intel he can find out from the drivers what was going on at Walmarts all around the region just by talking to the drivers.

00;21;43;26 - 00;22;05;10
Lee Pepper
Yeah. Well, you know, I've got a chapter in the book on intelligence, and I think that that's a lost art in corporate America today. And like, you know, I, I, I learned early on there, there was a woman that worked at Perot Systems named Libby Kraft. And when she was working at EDS, she told me a story that when they were trying to build and trying to hire people, right, they were like years before the internet.

00;22;05;10 - 00;22;26;09
Lee Pepper
So, you know, you have to go and like, know people that she would go and and she would look at the competitor, she would get license plates, right. She would look at where they were trying to hire computer programmers. And she would go and do the license plates. And then she had a friend that I think was sweet on her that worked at the police department, and she would go in and get their names and addresses and now she knew who she could send letters to, you know, to try to recruit.

00;22;26;16 - 00;22;44;10
Lee Pepper
And I think that we have lost that kind of art in actually personally, like really doing some deep Intel. And, you know, I think that there's so much that we could learn from what our competitors are doing and kind of start to then unwrap kind of what their success is and give us some ideas. I think sometimes we're just too busy,

00;22;44;10 - 00;22;47;01
Lee Pepper
not spending the time to do the deep dive.

00;22;47;04 - 00;22;47;29
Craig Andrews
Yeah.

00;22;48;01 - 00;23;01;07
Lee Pepper
I listen, you know, that's one of the things in behavioral health. I've listened over 10,000 phone calls coming in over behavioral health. So I know what customers are telling us on the phone. I'm hearing how they heard about us. I know what they're struggling with. And I think that,

00;23;01;07 - 00;23;03;20
Lee Pepper
that's one of the things that made me personally successful.

00;23;03;20 - 00;23;23;09
Lee Pepper
But a lot of people that were in my shoes and competitors weren't willing to do that work. And so, you know, that was part of kind of like the 10,000 hours it was me listened to all these phone calls and and I still do it today with some of my consulting clients. If I want to know what's going on out there in the in the local space, I just listen to the phone calls and you just pick up and learn so much.

00;23;23;11 - 00;23;27;12
Craig Andrews
Yeah, I was just getting ready to comment on that. I mean, I'm blown away.

00;23;27;12 - 00;23;29;09
Craig Andrews
10,000 calls.

00;23;29;12 - 00;23;34;27
Lee Pepper
Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, that's one of the things attribution marketing

00;23;34;27 - 00;23;55;20
Lee Pepper
can be very difficult. And there's a lot of great tools and a lot of things are automated. And you've got your, your codes that are coming in and you can see how many times they've been on your website and this and that. But one of the things that's really critical is when you listen to the phone call and behavioral health and you listen to the phone call, and then when you have your your centers trained to ask how you heard about us and to actually do a secondary,

00;23;55;20 - 00;23;58;14
Lee Pepper
you know, question about, oh, I heard about you from my therapist or

00;23;58;14 - 00;24;19;11
Lee Pepper
what's your therapist name, or I heard about you on Google. Do you remember what you googled? You remember what you searched, you get so much intelligence, and it's it's a it's a discipline, but wow, we so many companies miss out on that. So many companies just make an assumption that, well, you know, the click came from this or the phone call came from this click and there's like a whole nother level that you can get to.

00;24;19;11 - 00;24;21;20
Lee Pepper
And it just takes a little bit of effort.

00;24;21;20 - 00;24;38;18
Lee Pepper
And all of a sudden you get this vast amount of information and now it's not subjective. That's the other thing in marketing, we have to fight our cognitive biases all the time. And you see it from other departments. But, you know, once you're getting you're making the decisions based on objective information versus subjective.

00;24;38;18 - 00;24;43;16
Lee Pepper
Then then you can really start to scale and get some leverage.

00;24;43;18 - 00;24;46;28
Craig Andrews
I had a client once where I listened to some of their,

00;24;46;28 - 00;24;49;23
Craig Andrews
inbound calls and,

00;24;49;23 - 00;24;53;01
Craig Andrews
and I was shocked.

00;24;53;01 - 00;25;10;27
Craig Andrews
And, you know, I heard, you know, a couple of the things I heard, and I don't think the person who was answering the call was intentionally trying to be rude. But, you know, listening to it from an outside perspective is like, wow, if I was the person calling in, I'd feel horrible about this.

00;25;10;27 - 00;25;12;06
Craig Andrews
And this is,

00;25;12;06 - 00;25;25;07
Craig Andrews
unfortunately, I never took her advice on this, but small tweaks, getting in the trenches and listening to those things, you get a perspective. I think you can order all the, you know, the,

00;25;25;07 - 00;25;35;07
Craig Andrews
Gartner reports you want, you know, you're going to get more out of spending, you know, an hour a week, like listening to sales calls than these big reports.

00;25;35;09 - 00;25;42;14
Lee Pepper
Most companies, when there is a budgetary stress or they're looking to cut a budget, was the first thing they cut training.

00;25;42;17 - 00;25;42;26
Craig Andrews
Yeah.

00;25;43;00 - 00;26;00;07
Lee Pepper
And then they wonder why their teams are performing as well. You know that that should be the last thing you cut. And it's the same thing, right? The same experience. When I started listening to you, part of my role as a CMO, you know, I was I was all the sudden when I got promoted, I was taking over the call center, the admissions team, and you start listening.

00;26;00;07 - 00;26;14;25
Lee Pepper
That's how I got in, listen to phone calls and and it was born out of what we did at Fort Knox the first week at Fort Knox. They had video cameras going back 30, you know, 40 years ago they had video cameras set up, and we were reading our orders of the day in front of the video camera.

00;26;14;25 - 00;26;21;27
Lee Pepper
And guess what? When you see yourself, all of a sudden you realize that you don't really have a good command presence. You better practice.

00;26;21;27 - 00;26;28;06
Lee Pepper
And so all of a sudden, we had to start. We had to understand that you got to get your hands out of your pocket. You can't be moving or can't can't be doing,

00;26;28;06 - 00;26;28;22
Lee Pepper
and, and on.

00;26;28;28 - 00;26;49;14
Lee Pepper
But it was that experience of seeing ourselves on camera which then allowed me to to kind of take that into the behavioral health space. So we got to listen to these calls, right. We got to know. And then because you're right, the people, they want to do a great job, they just didn't know. And so once we started playing some calls and they could hear themselves, they're like, wow, I do need to shift, you know, how.

00;26;49;14 - 00;27;07;03
Lee Pepper
And that's when you get into things like training them on the boomerang statement, you know, and giving them some of these little techniques which are sales techniques. But from a therapeutic perspective, they're motivational interviewing. And so part of it was just kind of removing all this. And, and now all of a sudden that some of the teams I work with, they really embrace that.

00;27;07;03 - 00;27;16;00
Lee Pepper
They appreciate having somebody to kind of tap them on the shoulder and say, have you ever thought about doing this because they do want to help that person on the phone?

00;27;16;03 - 00;27;16;20
Craig Andrews
Yep.

00;27;16;23 - 00;27;28;27
Lee Pepper
And whether it's getting them in the treatment or whether it's like in your case, you know, whether it's connecting them with a service that's going to help them be successful, that's really at the end of the day, what is the most successful for businesses?

00;27;28;29 - 00;27;49;24
Craig Andrews
Yeah, Lee, this has been amazing. We got to wrap up. But I think the biggest takeaway that I got was from from what you were saying, make the strategy clear and give the people the latitude, the people doing the work that led to to pick the tactics that help them achieve the strategy.

00;27;49;26 - 00;28;08;04
Lee Pepper
Absolutely. Yeah. Set the strategy and get out of their way. Yeah. Well, you got to hold them accountable, but you got to get out of the way, you know, because you can't apply your cognitive bias just because, you know, you've got all this great experience. There's all these new innovative things that are coming in. Let them help you, you know, lead that way.

00;28;08;07 - 00;28;11;10
Lee Pepper
You've got to set it then let them go and execute.

00;28;11;13 - 00;28;14;03
Craig Andrews
Yeah. All right. So the book is,

00;28;14;03 - 00;28;14;25
Craig Andrews
never,

00;28;14;25 - 00;28;16;23
Craig Andrews
never outmatched will.

00;28;16;25 - 00;28;17;03
Lee Pepper
Not be.

00;28;17;03 - 00;28;20;13
Craig Andrews
To that.

00;28;20;16 - 00;28;27;07
Lee Pepper
And these are the these are the advanced galleys, you know, it's a it's a hardback. So those will be out. You know, those will be out soon, but yeah.

00;28;27;10 - 00;28;38;21
Craig Andrews
It's awesome. Yeah. Never outmatched military strategies to lead, innovate and win in the modern marketing battlefield. Lee, thanks for coming on layers and Legacies. How can people reach you?

00;28;38;23 - 00;28;39;14
Lee Pepper
Yeah, they can,

00;28;39;14 - 00;28;40;13
Lee Pepper
they can go to,

00;28;40;13 - 00;28;42;24
Lee Pepper
never outmatched Booking.com.

00;28;42;24 - 00;28;49;13
Lee Pepper
That's the the website for the book. And of course, it's available on all major platforms. And they can also I always tell people connect with me on LinkedIn,

00;28;49;13 - 00;28;54;04
Lee Pepper
I'm somebody that actually checks my LinkedIn messages. So if I can ever be of service,

00;28;54;04 - 00;28;56;17
Lee Pepper
and I'm doing a lot, I'm out on the speaking circuit.

00;28;56;17 - 00;28;59;29
Lee Pepper
So if I can ever be of service or provide a talk,

00;28;59;29 - 00;29;03;24
Lee Pepper
or even, you know, a consultation for a company, I'm always happy to do that.

00;29;03;26 - 00;29;06;10
Craig Andrews
That's great. Well, thanks again.

00;29;06;13 - 00;29;09;02
Lee Pepper
Thank you. Greg.

00;29;09;02 - 00;29;35;26
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Ally's for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this

00;29;35;26 - 00;29;37;21
Craig Andrews
episode on social media.

00;29;37;23 - 00;30;01;03
Craig Andrews
Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or posted on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest. Tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.

00;30;01;05 - 00;30;09;10
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up. Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.

00;30;09;10 - 00;32;11;15
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Ally's for me.com. Or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.