Alan Gregerman nearly lost everything after a stroke robbed him of his ability to speak and see. But instead of giving in, he turned that moment into one of his greatest leadership lessons. In this episode, Alan shares how navigating life without communication forced him to rethink how leaders engage, innovate, and lead. Through his recovery, he uncovered deeper truths about humility, clarity, and the need to constantly evolve.

Alan breaks down why most organizations fail at innovation—and how the smartest people in the room may not be the answer. His latest book, The Wisdom of Ignorance, argues that not knowing is often the key to seeing clearly and moving boldly. He introduces his six-part framework for unlocking genius: be purposeful, curious, humble, respectful, future-focused, and yes—just a bit paranoid.

With stories from his own life and business consulting career, Alan makes a compelling case for breaking with expertise, embracing fresh perspectives, and looking outside your industry for inspiration.

Want to learn more about Alan Gregerman's work? Check out their website at https://www.alangregerman.com.

Connect with Alan Gregerman on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/alan-gregerman-a33b236/.

Key Points with Timestamps

• [00:01:07] Introduction to Alan Gregerman and his innovation-focused work

• [00:02:22] Alan shares his recovery story after a major stroke

• [00:04:08] Using a chalkboard to communicate without sight or speech

• [00:06:02] How losing senses made him a better listener and leader

• [00:07:20] The leadership takeaway: if no one understands you, the failure is yours

• [00:09:05] How Alan became a clearer communicator after his stroke

• [00:11:12] The value of continuous learning—even during recovery

• [00:13:29] Alan explains the premise behind The Wisdom of Ignorance

• [00:14:42] The 99% rule: innovation comes from adapting existing ideas

• [00:17:19] Why customers rarely know what they actually want

• [00:19:16] Velcro, Uber, and Spanx: ideas born from everyday ignorance

• [00:23:05] Why new hires may be your best source of innovation

• [00:27:13] Challenging industry norms by looking outside your field

• [00:28:22] Bank innovation blocked by the board, later picked up by competitors

• [00:30:56] Innovation is about curiosity, not theft

• [00:33:07] Alan’s six-part genius framework: Purpose, Curiosity, Humility, Respect, Future-focus, Paranoia

• [00:36:07] Book launch details: The Wisdom of Ignorance hits shelves October 14

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment in my career.

00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;10
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on this show.

00;00;51;10 - 00;01;07;16
Craig Andrews
Today I want to welcome Alan Gregerman. He is the founder of Venture Works. He is also the author of The Wisdom of Ignorance. Why not? Knowing can be the key to innovation in an uncertain world, and we're going to talk about that today.

00;01;07;16 - 00;01;16;15
Craig Andrews
The I think if I understand correctly, we're going to learn how ignorance can actually be a strategic advantage.

00;01;16;18 - 00;01;46;19
Craig Andrews
I can say prolific writer. And he has three other books The Necessity of Strangers Surrounded by Geniuses and Lessons from the sandbox. Doctor Gregor Men helps businesses with innovation, and I can think of a few that need that. Actually, I think we all need that. We should all be continually innovating. And so I think this is a good episode to tune into.

00;01;46;22 - 00;01;47;16
Craig Andrews
Alan, welcome.

00;01;47;23 - 00;01;57;02
Alan Gregerman
Well, thank you for having me. Delighted to be here and delighted to share ideas about innovation and how everyone can unlock their own genius.

00;01;57;05 - 00;02;03;17
Craig Andrews
You know, I'm looking at the clock and we were having such amazing conversation in the green room. And,

00;02;03;17 - 00;02;05;18
Craig Andrews
you know, I wish we'd captured some of that.

00;02;05;18 - 00;02;10;27
Craig Andrews
But it's just it's been such a delight talking to you and,

00;02;10;27 - 00;02;19;03
Craig Andrews
and one of the things that I discovered is we've both had significant,

00;02;19;03 - 00;02;22;19
Craig Andrews
fiscal setbacks.

00;02;22;22 - 00;02;37;22
Alan Gregerman
Yeah. No, I was a bit surprised, of course, to learn about your bout with Covid. I'm delighted that you're doing well, you know, and I don't spend a lot of time talking about it, but four and a half years ago, I had a pretty severe stroke.

00;02;37;22 - 00;02;40;21
Alan Gregerman
And I lost the ability to see and speak.

00;02;40;21 - 00;02;47;17
Alan Gregerman
Kind of important abilities to have if you're a consultant and a keynote speaker and a workshop leader.

00;02;47;25 - 00;02;59;28
Alan Gregerman
And it took me about 18 months to kind of retrain myself to get those abilities back. I had really kind of great experts to help me, but part of it was actually not knowing stuff, you know.

00;03;00;02 - 00;03;22;27
Craig Andrews
Well let me yeah, let me interrupt there because I'm thinking about when I woke up, I was incredibly frustrated because I had to shrink. Right. And and so I couldn't talk. And it was so frustrating trying to communicate with people, but at least I could see. Right? How did you communicate?

00;03;22;29 - 00;03;49;01
Alan Gregerman
Well, so first I did kind of poorly, you know, and I think we all try and Tesla and I believed I was actually speaking. And as I had a bunch of speech therapists, their view was, no, you actually are kind of physically going through the motions, but you're not able to make an audible sound. I remember one of my speech therapist saying, somewhere in the Atlantic, there's a dolphin who can hear you, but humans can't hear you at all.

00;03;49;08 - 00;03;52;08
Alan Gregerman
And so I thought I would speak in and,

00;03;52;08 - 00;04;08;26
Alan Gregerman
people would say to me in varying degrees of kindly, you know, our older daughter, who I adore, is kind of snarky. And she would just scream, we can't hear you. Just stop trying to speak. And it took months before I can make a sound that actually humans could hear.

00;04;08;29 - 00;04;28;18
Alan Gregerman
The fact that I couldn't speak and I couldn't see meant that I had to, with a chalkboard, write cryptic notes that probably were a mess, but it was the best I could do. It was based on memory. I was writing down things to kind of let people know what my needs were, and what I was hoping to accomplish that day.

00;04;28;21 - 00;04;48;29
Alan Gregerman
It was interesting. You know, whatever doesn't kill you, they say, makes you stronger, you know? And you know, you have no choice. You just keep moving forward. And I think that's kind of a lesson that I've learned about business is even during tough or challenging times, we live in uncertain times. You just keep moving forward. I think that's what you do.

00;04;49;02 - 00;04;53;00
Craig Andrews
You know, I don't think I don't think people who

00;04;53;00 - 00;05;15;10
Craig Andrews
haven't experienced it can can appreciate how frustrating it is when you're trying to communicate. You feel like you're being coherent and nobody can understand you. It's it's. And again, I at least had the benefit of vision. But I, they gave me a letter card at one point that I was trying to spell out letters, and my wife said it was gibberish.

00;05;15;12 - 00;05;16;04
Alan Gregerman
Right.

00;05;16;07 - 00;05;29;28
Craig Andrews
And it's just so incredibly frustrating that in your head, I don't know if this is what you felt in your head. Everything you're saying is reasonable and logical and understandable, but nobody understands you yet.

00;05;30;01 - 00;06;02;17
Alan Gregerman
So I experience that the plus I had, I think, was I'm like a future person. So the here and now frustrations were less kind of important to me than my belief that at some point I was going to speak again, and then I was going to get back at all these people who tormented me, but never. So I sat on the porch kind of imagining what life was going to be like when I got my abilities back together and when you can't see or speak, you hear bird sounds that you didn't hear before.

00;06;02;17 - 00;06;21;09
Alan Gregerman
You know, we wander around and there's so much going on that we miss because we're either in our own heads or having a conversation with someone. So it was fine. You know, in retrospect, it was absolutely fine. The fact that doctors, experts initially said they didn't know if I'd ever speak again, that was frustrating.

00;06;21;09 - 00;06;24;23
Alan Gregerman
The fact that my therapist showed up, you know,

00;06;24;23 - 00;06;28;07
Alan Gregerman
parked in the driveway and said, okay, we're going to do a lot of exercises.

00;06;28;07 - 00;06;47;20
Alan Gregerman
You're probably not going to make a sound for weeks or months, but they're going to work. I believe in you. You're going to be speaking. I'm not coming here for you not to speak again. You know, so I had the balance of people who are super highly trained, other people that were still pretty highly trained, who believed in me and, you know, my only option was to believe in myself.

00;06;47;22 - 00;06;54;04
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And for those that don't know the lingo, when you say therapist, you're not talking about a counselor. You're talking about your speech therapist. Right.

00;06;54;04 - 00;07;20;23
Alan Gregerman
Exactly. Yeah. So I had speech therapist, vision therapists, occupational therapist. I mean, more therapists than I realized prior to the stroke even existed. But, you know, go back to what you were saying because it's pretty important. You know, it's an interesting lesson to be trying to talk and not speak. And I guess that an awful lot of your listeners who lead organizations often are frustrated because they think they've said something.

00;07;20;26 - 00;07;39;06
Alan Gregerman
And the company or organization, all their people either interpret it wrong or just didn't get the message at all. And so for me not to be able to get anybody to hear a word, I was saying, challenge me to think about how do you really communicate with people and how do you make sure you're all on the same page?

00;07;39;09 - 00;07;55;04
Craig Andrews
And that's that's a really interesting perspective is you're throwing it out there. Because what I hear if I'm if I'm hearing you correctly, I'm hearing you say the responsibility communicates on your shoulders, not the shoulders of whoever you're trying to communicate. So.

00;07;55;06 - 00;08;17;23
Alan Gregerman
Oh yeah. So I had to figure out and, you know, I went through iterations and they were cryptic, but I had to figure it out. One of the other challenges, once you've had a significant stroke, is they put you on a high level of blood thinners. So here's a guy now who's used to walking and exercising. He can't see and he can't speak, but he needs to get his exercise.

00;08;17;25 - 00;08;45;03
Alan Gregerman
And so I cryptically write on a chalkboard to my wife, I would like to walk today. Can you find a neighbor or a friend or a customer who's willing to walk with me and they have to hold my arm to make sure I don't fall? Because if I fell and cut myself, I could bleed to death. So you figure out how to communicate with what tools you have, and over time, you just hope you're going to get better at it, you know?

00;08;45;06 - 00;09;05;09
Craig Andrews
And obviously it's such a challenging experience, but my guess is you came out as a better communicator once. You know, once your ability to see and speak returned. I would guess that you were a much more effective communicator on the other side of the stroke than you were on the front side.

00;09;05;11 - 00;09;24;10
Alan Gregerman
Well, so a couple of things. One is customers. Now I do a lot of keynote speaking. Customers say, gee, you know, that stroke was really good. You slowed down the way you spoke. Used to speak so fast, and our people were really scurrying to take notes, and now they actually can kind of pause and listen to you. So I think that was good.

00;09;24;15 - 00;09;53;03
Alan Gregerman
The other thing is, when you have to work hard to get your needs met, when you have to work hard to figure out how to get a message to somebody, it does resonate with you. And so I think part of the lingering benefit is that I try to always be clear with the customers I work with, with family and friends, that by communication is on target, you know, and I don't think I thought about that as much before I lost the ability to communicate.

00;09;53;05 - 00;10;10;28
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Wow. That's I mean, I'm it's just it's still I'm a little bit overwhelmed. Yeah. I experienced not being able to speak. And that was extremely frustrating. But to not be able to see on top of that, that's just so amazing what you've been through and how you've come out on the other side.

00;10;11;00 - 00;10;33;06
Alan Gregerman
Well, you know, you don't have a lot of choices, do you? So I wanted to get back into my life. Of course, I wanted to get back to running my business, which I've been running for 37 years. So I was doggedly determined. And again, because I'm a future thinker, which I think is an asset in the work that I do, I'm always trying to think about what's next.

00;10;33;08 - 00;10;41;09
Alan Gregerman
I was in my mind thinking about, I'm going to get through this and figure it out. Didn't think it was going to take 18 months to figure it out.

00;10;41;09 - 00;10;51;13
Alan Gregerman
But yeah, I was totally focused on that. And another thing I did, which was, I think really good, while I couldn't see or speak as I listen to books on tape.

00;10;51;13 - 00;11;12;26
Alan Gregerman
So a friend of mine got me a subscription to Books on Tape and said, just listen to stuff. Keep your brain going. And I think that was really helpful. And so I think when I think about our customers, we always need to keep learning new things. And so I was doggedly determined to do this. But I always say to my customers, when you got a free moment, learn something new.

00;11;12;27 - 00;11;29;13
Alan Gregerman
Think about the world differently. Imagine where your business could be going. And that's been really helpful to me, that whole idea. So just listening to stuff, I actually became pretty smart while I lost these abilities. Probably read a lot more than I read now.

00;11;29;15 - 00;11;49;14
Craig Andrews
Well, and there's actually some science behind that. There's this region of the brain called the anterior cingulate cortex, and it's the only part of the brain that will actually grow. And the only way to make it grow is to do things that are outside your comfort zone, Interstate. And it's responsible for emotional regulation.

00;11;49;14 - 00;11;50;26
Craig Andrews
It's the,

00;11;50;26 - 00;11;53;03
Craig Andrews
it it's responsible for,

00;11;53;03 - 00;11;53;24
Craig Andrews
delivering,

00;11;53;24 - 00;11;59;03
Craig Andrews
what's I think it's what triggers dopamine in the things that make you feel satisfied and what have you.

00;11;59;06 - 00;12;04;01
Craig Andrews
And so you got, like, a prolonged period of being outside that

00;12;04;01 - 00;12;08;10
Craig Andrews
your interior mid cingulate cortex must be massive. And,

00;12;08;10 - 00;12;21;10
Craig Andrews
the reward center of the brain, that's that I was looking for. It's responsible for the reward center of the brain. And because you face that and took on the challenge, the rewards that your brain gave you,

00;12;21;10 - 00;12;22;29
Craig Andrews
were multiplied.

00;12;23;02 - 00;12;43;03
Alan Gregerman
Yeah. No, I'm hoping we always like to think that we're becoming smarter and more remarkable. I'm not sure that's the case, but, you know, I really felt I came out of the stroke kind of energized. I tell you, the first time, after like, four months, that I actually made a sound that a human could hear, I felt awesome.

00;12;43;10 - 00;13;04;15
Alan Gregerman
You know, the first time I was able to start seeing, which was really weird because I had such a bad case of double vision that I saw a doctor straight ahead of me, and I saw another one of them, like 12ft to the right. And I had to ask doctors, which was the real one. Were they on the one on my left or on my right?

00;13;04;18 - 00;13;16;10
Alan Gregerman
But each time I kind of made progress, I felt really good. And the fact that I was continuing to use my brain really made it so that when I suddenly was able to kind of come back to life and come back to work,

00;13;16;10 - 00;13;19;23
Alan Gregerman
I still felt pretty energized that I wasn't out of touch.

00;13;19;25 - 00;13;29;07
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, let's let's pivot and talk about your book. I mean, this is fascinating. We could spend a whole hour talking about this. I love your journey, but,

00;13;29;07 - 00;13;34;01
Craig Andrews
your book, The Wisdom of Ignorance was an

00;13;34;01 - 00;13;35;13
Craig Andrews
awesome title.

00;13;35;13 - 00;13;36;06
Craig Andrews
But what

00;13;36;06 - 00;13;38;27
Craig Andrews
what are you saying? What's what's the nutshell?

00;13;38;27 - 00;14;05;18
Alan Gregerman
Yeah. No, I appreciate the question. So I wrote this book because I've been an innovation consultant for 37 years. And one of the frustrations for me has always been that while companies talk about innovation, most have absolutely no idea how to make innovation happen. Most companies think when they need to come up with a brilliant idea. They bring the smartest people into a room, people who are expert, and they ask them what they think.

00;14;05;20 - 00;14;24;29
Alan Gregerman
But experts are people who have trained to kind of help us be successful now, not necessarily in the future or an uncertain world. So imagine this. The reality is, innovation happens when we actually are willing to kind of step back from our expertise and look at the world with fresh eyes, and that's what this book is really about.

00;14;25;06 - 00;14;42;00
Alan Gregerman
So I like to say kind of two things that I'd love your listeners to think about. The first is the notion that if I know a lot, I can make things better. I know the ins and outs of our product or service or our solution, so I know how to tweak it to make it better for customers if I don't know much.

00;14;42;02 - 00;15;02;04
Alan Gregerman
I take a fresh look at what we're doing and say, in a fast changing world, should we be doing this or should we be doing something different? That's the first thing. The second thing is what I call the 99% rule. Most companies bring people together in a room with whiteboards and post-it notes and all kinds of things, and they say, okay, we need to have an out of the box idea.

00;15;02;04 - 00;15;29;29
Alan Gregerman
Does anybody here have one? And that presupposes that we have to reinvent the wheel every time. It turns out 99% of all new ideas are based on someone else's thinking or something found in nature. And so the people who innovate put ideas together that already exist with their own secret sauce. And so companies don't really understand that. And so the wisdom of ignorance is basically saying, actually get out there and engage the world.

00;15;30;01 - 00;15;42;21
Alan Gregerman
Approach every problem as though you could start anew and think differently about it, and look for ideas and inspiration all around you as the starting point. Don't sit in a room and rack your brain.

00;15;42;23 - 00;15;44;19
Craig Andrews
You know, it reminds me.

00;15;44;19 - 00;15;52;17
Craig Andrews
So do I make furniture? Not as much recently as in the past, but I took a design class by a guy named Michael Fortune,

00;15;52;17 - 00;16;04;15
Craig Andrews
who makes his living designing furniture for 5 or 6 households in North America. So he makes very expensive furniture and stuff is gorgeous. And he stood up and said, you know what?

00;16;04;16 - 00;16;19;22
Craig Andrews
I'm not an Einstein. Neither are any of you. And he showed us a process where he was doing exactly what you were telling, what you were saying. He would steal ideas from nature. Or there's one coffee table he made that just has this one beautiful,

00;16;19;22 - 00;16;20;21
Craig Andrews
inward swept,

00;16;20;21 - 00;16;26;04
Craig Andrews
legs. And he said, I found this Egyptian vase in a museum.

00;16;26;07 - 00;16;36;28
Craig Andrews
It's been the museum for thousands of years. I don't know why it's beautiful, but people for thousands of years have judged it to be beautiful. So I just trace the outline on the base. And that was the shape of the leg?

00;16;37;01 - 00;16;39;29
Alan Gregerman
Yes and no. I think he's kind of spot on. So,

00;16;39;29 - 00;17;00;25
Alan Gregerman
think about the great architect, Frank Gehry. And so Frank Gehry's work, and it's found in Chicago and Los Angeles and Prague and all kinds of places, is based on actually deconstructing geometry as opposed to using geometry. So think about a building typically being rectangular and of a certain dimension.

00;17;00;26 - 00;17;14;20
Alan Gregerman
And so Gary says, why don't we take this and kind of curve these ideas. Why do buildings have to have straight edges on it? And so his work is kind of brilliant. He's kind of highly in demand and a genius. But I want people to think about,

00;17;14;20 - 00;17;19;20
Alan Gregerman
they should regularly be deconstructing what they do and figuring out is there a better way to do it?

00;17;19;26 - 00;17;34;18
Alan Gregerman
And the key reason to do that is because customers demand more of us. They're always going to demand more of us. And so folks might say, well, you know, my customers are happy with what I give them now. Actually not

00;17;34;18 - 00;17;40;04
Alan Gregerman
they just don't know a better way. And so our job is to figure out a better way, something else to give them.

00;17;40;06 - 00;18;00;24
Alan Gregerman
And so your friend who's actually going out and looking around, he knows one of the clues, and that is if I want to be brilliant, I should get out and wander around and look for ideas. Remember, as we sit in our offices, the world is passing us by. The world keeps moving and changing, and we need to get out there and see what's going on.

00;18;00;27 - 00;18;12;11
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, and, you know, as you were talking, I was like, that happened to me today. I was I have a co-working place where I work, and it has this lovely courtyard with,

00;18;12;11 - 00;18;23;14
Craig Andrews
live oaks that are hundreds of years old. And I got up as I started walking, I had to pull my phone out to start capturing all the ideas that came to my head.

00;18;23;16 - 00;18;54;02
Alan Gregerman
Well, so I think, you know, so I think about most people who are listening to this probably say to themselves, I'm not particularly innovative. And the reality is, sitting in an office or sitting in a cube, or if you're working remotely, sitting at your dining room table doesn't make you feel particularly creative. But getting out and paying attention and seeing connections and suddenly understanding how the world works, both the human made world and the natural world suddenly makes everybody believe, wow, this is kind of cool.

00;18;54;02 - 00;18;59;20
Alan Gregerman
Or here's an idea I have, you know, think about it. Walking in nature. So,

00;18;59;20 - 00;19;16;00
Alan Gregerman
Velcro wasn't invented in a laboratory by some guy wearing a lab coat who was farting around with ideas for how to create a perfect hook system. Velcro was invented by a guy walking his dog in the Alps, and one day saw his dog was covered with burrs.

00;19;16;04 - 00;19;36;29
Alan Gregerman
And as opposed to saying, God, these are a pain in the neck, he took some off of his dog and looked at them under a microscope and saw that they had little hooks. He said, I can think of a zillion ways I can use those as a regular person. Today there are about 100,000 applications of Velcro, because the guy took a walk with his dog and paid attention.

00;19;37;02 - 00;19;54;16
Craig Andrews
I never knew that story. That's fascinating. So let me kind of go back to the title and something that you mentioned in the Green Room that sometimes coming from a place of ignorance is a strategic advantage.

00;19;54;18 - 00;20;02;06
Alan Gregerman
Well, yeah. So think about it. And, you know, I'm guessing your listeners, if they think about this and think about their companies or organizations,

00;20;02;06 - 00;20;06;05
Alan Gregerman
we'll get this pretty quickly, even though it's a counterintuitive idea.

00;20;06;05 - 00;20;14;06
Alan Gregerman
The notion is quite simple. And that is, if I don't know a lot, I look at things with fresh eyes. It's the only way I can start to make sense of them.

00;20;14;08 - 00;20;24;02
Alan Gregerman
And when I look at them with fresh eyes, I start to imagine all kinds of possibilities. So let me give you I know you're in Texas. Let me give you a great example. Two guys,

00;20;24;02 - 00;20;33;23
Alan Gregerman
herb Kelleher and Roland Kang, are sitting at a bar in San Antonio, and one of them says, you know, airlines are kind of expensive.

00;20;33;23 - 00;20;36;04
Alan Gregerman
And they're not very efficient.

00;20;36;04 - 00;20;50;04
Alan Gregerman
Let's take a napkin out here and draw a picture of a different type of airline, one that everybody could fly on, just like taking the Greyhound bus. And so they draw a picture. Kelleher is a lawyer.

00;20;50;04 - 00;20;55;17
Alan Gregerman
King is an amateur pilot, but he doesn't do that at all. He never been in the airline business.

00;20;55;19 - 00;21;01;02
Alan Gregerman
And they draw a map between San Antonio, Dallas and Houston, the three largest

00;21;01;02 - 00;21;11;28
Alan Gregerman
cities in Texas. And they said, what if we created an airline that didn't make you go to a big hub first? It took you wherever you wanted to go.

00;21;11;28 - 00;21;18;14
Alan Gregerman
And now let's talk about it being efficient. We wouldn't have assigned seats. We'd use the same type of airplane.

00;21;18;17 - 00;21;21;25
Alan Gregerman
We'd give people peanuts. Remember the peanut fairs?

00;21;21;25 - 00;21;36;14
Alan Gregerman
They were laid later. When asked, why did you start an airline, they said, well, you know, we didn't know anything about airlines. We just thought we were smart. We could figure out a better way. And if we'd known a lot about airlines, we never would have started one. What?

00;21;36;14 - 00;21;51;27
Alan Gregerman
They started with Southwest Air until a few glitches. Southwest air, most popular airline in America, started by guys who knew nothing about the airline business. So the reality is all around us. I'd love for your listeners to think about,

00;21;51;27 - 00;21;58;27
Alan Gregerman
things they use today that were started by people who knew nothing about what they were doing. How many people call an Uber or get Uber Eats?

00;21;59;04 - 00;22;20;08
Alan Gregerman
Uber was started by two friends in Paris who couldn't find a cab. They realized, talk about the 99% rule that G.P.S. was now a thing. They decided to take the idea of cabs and the idea of global positioning systems, and bring people who needed a ride together with people who had a ride to give. And that's how Uber started.

00;22;20;11 - 00;22;25;15
Alan Gregerman
Airbnb wasn't started by people who had any experience in the hospitality business.

00;22;25;15 - 00;22;33;10
Alan Gregerman
Spanx, some of your listeners might use Spanx underwear. That doesn't show. That makes you feel better about yourself.

00;22;33;10 - 00;22;41;18
Alan Gregerman
She was a fax machine salesperson going door to door. So think about that. So, Sara Blakely, she was doing two things that don't even exist today.

00;22;41;18 - 00;23;05;28
Alan Gregerman
Fax machines and door to door selling. And yet she decided, you know, I gotta feel better. I gotta look better. Maybe somebody else has this problem. Billion dollar problem. Okay. So the reality is the world abounds with all of these ideas. People who didn't know what they were doing, who looked at the world with fresh eyes because no one had solved the problem, create really significant

00;23;05;28 - 00;23;07;18
Alan Gregerman
opportunities.

00;23;07;20 - 00;23;24;29
Craig Andrews
Well, I you know, in 20 years ago, I was working in the mobile phone industry and a company that never made a mobile phone changed the entire industry. And, you know, one of the debates was, why do we,

00;23;24;29 - 00;23;40;10
Craig Andrews
you know, for the original iPhone, one of the debates was, well, we're gonna need a keyboard, you know? And so Steve Jobs and his team made the first smartphone that didn't have a keyboard, right, and almost didn't have a SIM card.

00;23;40;11 - 00;23;41;22
Craig Andrews
I mean, but that's how,

00;23;41;22 - 00;24;03;19
Craig Andrews
the team managed to convince Steve Jobs, Johnny IV, and Steve Jobs both agreed that SIM cards were stupid and they didn't want their phone. And somebody fortunately convinced him to put that in. But it was coming in and just challenging the assumptions coming in from a place of ignorance. Instead of saying, of course we're going to do this because smartphones have keyboards.

00;24;03;21 - 00;24;20;09
Alan Gregerman
Well, yeah. So think about it. Who were the folks who really launched the mobile phone industry? That was Nokia at a point. Nokia had a 49% market share. They thought of a phone as a phone. You called people. They never imagined that today's phones.

00;24;20;09 - 00;24;27;05
Alan Gregerman
Could have the computing power of a university computer center in the 1980s. Okay.

00;24;27;11 - 00;24;31;10
Alan Gregerman
So I now have the ability to do that. But they didn't think about,

00;24;31;10 - 00;24;41;09
Alan Gregerman
the notion that this could be the all in one device that I could literally live my life. And you only need to get on a bus or sit in a park downtown,

00;24;41;09 - 00;24;47;11
Alan Gregerman
or be on a subway in a city that has a subway to to see 95% of people on their phones all the time.

00;24;47;15 - 00;25;07;09
Alan Gregerman
So you can bet they're using it kind of for their lot. But it took a vision that anything was possible, right? It wasn't just a mobile phone. It was anything. And look at the hundreds of thousands of apps you can download on your phone. Now the phone becomes a canvas for incredible creativity.

00;25;07;11 - 00;25;10;09
Craig Andrews
Yep. I know for myself,

00;25;10;09 - 00;25;28;24
Craig Andrews
I'll mention this every now and then when I'm working with a client, is one of the benefits I have that I bring to them is I'll ask the stupid questions because I don't know better. And I'll just ask a question that maybe in that industry seemed stupid, you know. Well, why don't we do this?

00;25;28;27 - 00;25;35;06
Craig Andrews
And inevitably, it ends up unlocking, an opportunity that most have overlooked.

00;25;35;08 - 00;26;08;01
Alan Gregerman
If they're open to that. Right? And so sometimes they get stuck because they have too much expertise. But you're exactly right. If they're open to being different and open to thinking in new ways, suddenly you've created a window. You're just exposing them to new ideas. But think about this. You know, used to be, you know, and I have a little bit more gray hair than some of your audience, but it used to be that the expectation was you'd take a job, you'd stay there for five years, you'd pay your dues, and then you could offer your opinion.

00;26;08;01 - 00;26;24;03
Alan Gregerman
Right. I suggest to all of our customers that the people they want to ask for their opinions are the absolute newest people in the organization. So the day someone arrives, instead of putting them through orientation, we should ask them what they know, not tell them what we know.

00;26;24;03 - 00;26;32;02
Alan Gregerman
Why? Because they've been somewhere else, right? And so they've seen other practices because they're also out there in the world, and we're not in the world.

00;26;32;02 - 00;26;48;26
Alan Gregerman
We're here in our factory or in our offices. And so the idea of having a fresh perspective is so profoundly valuable to us in a world changing fast. And we need to look for all the opportunities to do it. I also think I'll go ahead.

00;26;48;28 - 00;27;13;23
Craig Andrews
Oh, no. And for those that you know that that are stuck, I have absolutely no use for those that are open to thinking differently. So one of the favorite statements I have when when somebody says to me, well, that's not how it's done in our industry. I have a way of absolutely shutting that down. And I ask them, I said, is your goal to be average?

00;27;13;26 - 00;27;34;06
Craig Andrews
And nobody wants to be average? No, no. We're exceptional. We're exceptional every way. I said, if we limit ourselves to the way it's done in your industry, mathematically we're limiting ourself to average, right? If we're ordinary, we have to do it way differently than what others are doing in your industry.

00;27;34;09 - 00;27;42;02
Alan Gregerman
Oh, no, sir, you're exactly right. So let me give you an example. Many years ago, I was invited by one of the largest banks in America,

00;27;42;02 - 00;27;57;22
Alan Gregerman
to help them think about customer service. By all rankings, they were among the worst in customer service of the 20 largest banks in America. I show up and the CEO really excited, gives me a McKinsey study and the McKinsey study,

00;27;57;22 - 00;28;03;22
Alan Gregerman
talks about the leading customer service practices of banks in America.

00;28;03;25 - 00;28;22;13
Alan Gregerman
And he says to me, what do you think of this? And I said, well, you just spent $2 million to figure out how to be the best of the worst. And he pauses for a moment and then says, what do you mean? And I said, our banks are renowned for providing great customer service. And he said, no, actually, we're pretty bad at it.

00;28;22;20 - 00;28;38;10
Alan Gregerman
So I said, so instead of benchmarking banks, you should go to Nordstrom or the Ritz-Carlton hotel or someplace else where they're really good and figure out what they know and then apply that to banking. We came up with the plan. That was awesome.

00;28;38;10 - 00;28;41;20
Alan Gregerman
It actually included banks being open seven days a week.

00;28;41;20 - 00;28;44;10
Alan Gregerman
Banks being open till 8:00 at night.

00;28;44;13 - 00;28;49;19
Alan Gregerman
Banks providing financial education not only to their customers but their children.

00;28;49;19 - 00;29;09;22
Alan Gregerman
We came up with an awesome plan. The board refused to approve it. One of the people who was sitting there went to work for a bank called Commerce Bank, the world's kind of most convenient bank. Commerce Bank took all these ideas and actually ran with them and became in the New York metropolitan area, by far the most popular bank.

00;29;09;24 - 00;29;31;00
Alan Gregerman
So I think you're spot on kind of. People also look in the wrong places for ideas and inspiration. They're not open to the world being a kind of a place with ideas. And so they tend to say, who's good in our industry? And you're exactly right. That's not good enough. We can't win tomorrow by being the best in our industry, better than the other people in our industry.

00;29;31;03 - 00;29;36;01
Alan Gregerman
We win tomorrow by being the best in our industry, because we're the best in the world at what we do.

00;29;36;04 - 00;30;01;10
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, you know, when something hit me, I was talking to somebody about this earlier. Stealing from other industries. So we do marketing. We steal from television. We have a client. We just took on a new client where it's a mom and daughter team, and the daughter's like, I don't want to be on camera. I don't want to be on the website.

00;30;01;11 - 00;30;22;05
Craig Andrews
I don't want to be seen. And I paused and thought about I was like, I've seen this formula before. There was a TV show called Home Improvement with Tim Allen, and he had a neighbor called Wilson. And you never saw anything in Bob Wilson or anything below Wilson's nose. I was like, it's a proven formula. I don't have to be innovative.

00;30;22;05 - 00;30;34;06
Craig Andrews
I don't have to be a genius. I just have to be smart enough to see a pattern that was used somewhere else and pull it in. And I know it's a winning formula. I don't know why it's winning formula, but I know it's a winning formula.

00;30;34;09 - 00;30;56;10
Alan Gregerman
Well, no, but, you know, I, I used a slightly different word and I know exactly where you're going, but I wouldn't say steal from other industries. I'd say learn from other industries, because the reality is I'm going to learn from them. I'm going to adapt it to my world, and I'm going to create kind of compelling value. And so, you know, I don't want people to think that innovation is about stealing.

00;30;56;13 - 00;31;07;16
Alan Gregerman
I want people to think about innovation is about being curious, about looking at a world filled with ideas and then figuring out which of these ideas can we use as the starting point for us to be remarkable?

00;31;07;19 - 00;31;14;29
Craig Andrews
Now, I like them, and I would say I'm certainly using the word steal a little bit too liberally. It's it's you're in marketing.

00;31;14;29 - 00;31;17;01
Alan Gregerman
Come on. You like that word?

00;31;17;04 - 00;31;43;02
Craig Andrews
Well, I, I think I think there's an element of pride that you have to overcome. I think it's hard to be a proud person and an innovative person at the same time, because the proud person says, I have to come up with the idea. I have to I have to be the genius of it, of that. And and kind of coming back to the title of your book.

00;31;43;04 - 00;31;46;29
Craig Andrews
There's a strategic advantage to being the ignorant one in the room.

00;31;47;01 - 00;31;48;26
Alan Gregerman
So think about this.

00;31;48;26 - 00;32;06;13
Alan Gregerman
Leaders need to tell people it's okay not to know the answer right now, but to work together to figure out a more brilliant answer. So I don't talk about ignorance as stupidity. I talk about ignorance as really the kind of ticket that allows us to go out and come up with a new idea.

00;32;06;13 - 00;32;24;07
Alan Gregerman
And that's what I'm all about in the work I do with companies and organizations. So I want people to think about we should be sanctioned to be okay with not knowing a lot now, but we quickly have to figure out something. Then the other thing you've talked about is really important, and that is,

00;32;24;07 - 00;32;27;07
Alan Gregerman
we're going to come up with a brilliant idea.

00;32;27;09 - 00;32;37;10
Alan Gregerman
But it's not going to be just starting from scratch with a blank sheet of paper. We're going to come up with a brilliant idea by finding brilliant ideas and adapting them to our world.

00;32;37;12 - 00;32;40;24
Craig Andrews
There's there's the word. I was like, not steal, but adapt.

00;32;40;26 - 00;32;58;26
Alan Gregerman
Yeah, yeah. And so that's really vital to our success, is to constantly be out there looking and seeing how the world is moving. And take some of these ideas and use them as the starting point for us to be more brilliant. We're still the creators of what we do in our business.

00;32;58;26 - 00;33;01;25
Alan Gregerman
But we don't have to start at square zero.

00;33;01;27 - 00;33;07;07
Alan Gregerman
We start at square one, 2 or 3. Other people have figured out a lot of stuff.

00;33;07;09 - 00;33;21;23
Craig Andrews
Okay, well, and maybe this would be kind of a good way to kind of ramp up the if I remember correctly, you said there are six elements, a six element formula to how we unlock our genius. What are those six elements? Perfect.

00;33;21;29 - 00;33;40;16
Alan Gregerman
Yeah. And so what I want people who are listening, if they're leaders to understand, is they need to create a culture that's all about these six things. If I'm an individual, I want you to think about that. You have to master these six skills in order to be valuable to your company or organization in the future. Here's what they are.

00;33;40;18 - 00;33;47;25
Alan Gregerman
The first is we have to be purposeful. And so the reality is we think of innovation as. Anybody got a brilliant idea.

00;33;47;25 - 00;33;58;04
Alan Gregerman
Actually, innovation is this is what we're trying to accomplish. Let's come up with brilliant ideas to solve it. So we have to have a clear purpose. The folks who have a clear purpose, they win.

00;33;58;07 - 00;34;18;10
Alan Gregerman
The second is. We have to be curious. We've talked a lot about it, and that is the folks in the organizations that win actually are curious about the world around them. They're curious about ideas. They're asking customers questions all the time. They're getting out in engaging the world. The third is we have to be humble. You know, it used to be a kind of,

00;34;18;10 - 00;34;20;23
Alan Gregerman
not a good look for a leader to say.

00;34;20;23 - 00;34;40;08
Alan Gregerman
I actually don't know the answer. But the reality is, collectively, we don't know the answer yet, but we're going to figure it out. And so humility allows us to say, hey, let's figure out how to make this happen. The fourth is I need to be respectful. I need to respect every single person and every place where an idea could come from.

00;34;40;10 - 00;34;55;24
Alan Gregerman
And so that's vitally important to me. Oftentimes, as you were saying, we tend to look at unusual places when we're looking for ideas. And we tend to think, oh, these people, they they're not in my industry. They don't understand. They're in another culture. They don't understand.

00;34;55;24 - 00;35;01;11
Alan Gregerman
The reality is we have to respect everybody because we can learn something from everybody else.

00;35;01;14 - 00;35;19;15
Alan Gregerman
The fifth is we have to be future focused. The reality is, the world is changing so fast. If I'm not paying attention or thinking regularly about where the world is going to go, I'm not going to be the first one to get there. And so all the people listening have to figure out, how do I beat everybody else to the place my customers in the world are getting to?

00;35;19;18 - 00;35;33;11
Alan Gregerman
And the last one, which is, I want to say, a little bit controversial, at least to my wife, is we all have to be a bit paranoid. You know, until you say that word, people go, what do you mean by that? And I say this,

00;35;33;11 - 00;35;38;23
Alan Gregerman
we have to behave as though somebody is always following us and somebody is trying to eat our lunch.

00;35;39;01 - 00;36;01;11
Alan Gregerman
If I'm paranoid, then I know I got to keep a step ahead of all of the monsters in the closet or all of the potential competitors, and it just pushes me to compress the clock and think differently. So if we can master those six things, we can remain as individuals relevant, and our companies can be even more compelling in the future.

00;36;01;13 - 00;36;03;26
Craig Andrews
I love that. I love that.

00;36;03;26 - 00;36;07;08
Craig Andrews
So the book is coming out. When's it coming out and where can people get it?

00;36;07;10 - 00;36;11;23
Alan Gregerman
Yeah, so it's coming out October 14th and it's already,

00;36;11;23 - 00;36;19;22
Alan Gregerman
up on Amazon. It's called The Wisdom of Ignorance. I have to be honest, it's one of my favorite books. No, no no, no. But seriously.

00;36;19;22 - 00;36;29;18
Alan Gregerman
So it's coming out October 14th. It should be widely available then, if they prefer a local bookstore, and I like local bookstores and that bookstore is not carrying it.

00;36;29;19 - 00;36;33;26
Alan Gregerman
They can ask the bookstore to order it and get it for them.

00;36;33;26 - 00;36;41;12
Alan Gregerman
But it should be kind of available everywhere. And so I'm hoping to see people in airports reading it and,

00;36;41;12 - 00;36;47;13
Alan Gregerman
people in conference rooms reading it. And, you know, if people want more information, just connect with me.

00;36;47;15 - 00;36;48;29
Craig Andrews
And how can people connect with you?

00;36;49;00 - 00;36;59;17
Alan Gregerman
Well, so people can connect with me by going on LinkedIn and connecting with me. Allen. Greg Norman. They can go to Allen Gregor com, which is my website.

00;36;59;17 - 00;37;07;19
Alan Gregerman
They can send an email to innovate at venture-works.com. That's our com that's my company email.

00;37;07;19 - 00;37;09;11
Alan Gregerman
They can find me.

00;37;09;13 - 00;37;16;27
Craig Andrews
Well that's excellent. Well, thanks for sharing this one. Layers and legacies. What a valuable lessons for every business to implement.

00;37;17;00 - 00;37;24;28
Alan Gregerman
Well, thanks for having me on. I'm delighted to be here and appreciate the chance to share ideas with you and your audience.

00;37;24;28 - 00;37;51;22
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Ally's for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this

00;37;51;22 - 00;37;53;17
Craig Andrews
episode on social media.

00;37;53;19 - 00;38;17;01
Craig Andrews
Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or posted on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest. Tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.

00;38;17;03 - 00;38;25;08
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up. Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.

00;38;25;08 - 00;40;27;11
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Ally's for me.com. Or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.