Kyle Schwarz brings clarity to what leadership really looks like. A U.S. Naval Academy graduate and surface warfare officer, Kyle shares how a blunt rejection from his blue and gold officer nearly derailed his academy ambitions—but ultimately became a catalyst for transformation. He didn't quit. He trained, returned, and earned one of the strongest recommendations in years.

Now with 17 years of leadership experience, including more than a decade in recruiting, Kyle shows how those same principles apply in business. He draws sharp lines between managers and leaders, emphasizing the need for tough conversations, personal accountability, and seeing people as humans—not transactions. His approach at Risus Talent Partners rejects the churn-and-burn model. Instead, it prioritizes connection, fit, and long-term relationships.

Craig and Kyle discuss the dangers of avoiding confrontation, the flaws in transactional thinking, and how real leadership requires self-awareness and emotional intelligence. Kyle doesn’t just talk about leadership—he embodies it.

Want to learn more about Kyle Schwarz’s work? Check out his website at https://risustalent.com.

Connect with Kyle Schwarz on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-t-schwarz/.

Key Points with Timestamps

• 00:51 – Introduction of Kyle Schwarz: Naval officer, recruiter, and leader
  
  

• 02:01 – Kyle’s initial rejection from the Naval Academy and how he overcame it

• 03:56 – Turning rejection into resilience and lifelong friendship

• 04:58 – Difference between managers and leaders

• 05:22 – Simon Sinek’s quote on leadership and asking for help

• 06:30 – What the Naval Academy teaches—and doesn’t teach—about leadership

• 08:00 – Why rank doesn’t equal leadership

• 10:06 – Why Kyle didn’t choose the Marine Corps path

• 11:12 – Transitioning from military to recruiting and the role of Orion Talent

• 12:16 – Kyle’s family legacy in sales and the value of relational selling

• 13:39 – How early mistakes shaped his long-term approach to recruiting

• 14:48 – Building deep client relationships, not transactions

• 15:31 – Book recommendation: Leadership and Self-Deception

• 16:53 – Cultural fit matters as much as technical fit

• 18:20 – Handling clients or candidates who aren't the right fit

• 20:38 – Importance of screening for culture, not just skills

• 22:01 – Risks of losing professional visibility after being banned from LinkedIn

• 23:04 – How recruiters can help rebuild credibility after a misstep

• 24:43 – Leadership means being direct—even in conflict

• 26:09 – A recruiter’s breach of confidentiality and how Kyle handles sensitive data

• 29:22 – Origin of the name "Risus" and the importance of making recruiting enjoyable

• 30:23 – How to contact Kyle Schwarz

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment in my career.

00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;10
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on this show.

00;00;51;10 - 00;01;11;14
Craig Andrews
Today I went. Welcome Kyle Schwarz. He is with Risus' Talent Partners. Kyle is an eagle Scout. I went to the Naval Academy. Except that almost didn't happen. We got a story there. Apparently, somebody did not want him in the Naval Academy, but he went. Became a United States Naval,

00;01;11;14 - 00;01;20;19
Craig Andrews
surface warfare officer. He brings 17 years of leadership experience with over ten years in the area of recruiting.

00;01;20;22 - 00;01;39;10
Craig Andrews
I got to know Kyle through a networking group that we're both in. We're actually starting a chapter together called Success Champions Networking. This isn't a plug, but that's how I got to know Kyle. And he's a heck of a guy. And so I asked him to come on Leaders and Legacies to share some of his insights. Kyle, welcome.

00;01;39;13 - 00;01;45;05
Kyle Schwarz
Hey, Greg, I appreciate it. Kind of coming right out of the gate shooting there with that one. I appreciate it.

00;01;45;07 - 00;01;54;27
Craig Andrews
Yeah, absolutely. So all right. I, I don't think I got very much of the story, but you,

00;01;54;27 - 00;02;01;17
Craig Andrews
you almost didn't get you wanted to go to the academy, but somebody said no.

00;02;01;20 - 00;02;25;28
Kyle Schwarz
Yes. So, to put it bluntly. So for those that probably don't know, there's obviously a very difficult and challenging application process. And one of the tickets to ride is to talk with what the Naval Academy calls a blue and gold officer. Every service academy has someone within a specified region of the country, that it's their job to go out and talk to prospective candidates for the various academies.

00;02;25;29 - 00;02;33;27
Kyle Schwarz
I myself am starting this academic year as a blue and gold officer for the Richmond, Sugarland, Texas area just outside of Houston.

00;02;33;27 - 00;02;46;18
Kyle Schwarz
And the reason for that is because I want to have the same impact that my blue and gold officer had on me when I first met him. I had all the academic side of it. I had the the prerequisites in terms of things I was doing outside extracurricular.

00;02;46;21 - 00;03;02;07
Kyle Schwarz
I played varsity soccer. But when you looked at me, I wasn't the ideal specimen. If you if you have that idea of a midshipman in your head of what you expected midshipmen to look like, that wasn't me. And so my blue and gold officer and I won't name him. I love him to death because he and I are very good friends now.

00;03;02;09 - 00;03;09;13
Kyle Schwarz
But he walked in and just admitted. Goes. You're not a fit and walked in. The interview lasted 15 minutes.

00;03;09;15 - 00;03;09;28
Craig Andrews
Wow.

00;03;09;29 - 00;03;18;04
Kyle Schwarz
So we talked it through and I immediately knew what the reason was. He gave me the feedback, so I went and got a,

00;03;18;04 - 00;03;32;21
Kyle Schwarz
subscription to Bally's. This is up in the Chicagoland area where I grew up. And for the next six weeks, I dedicated to strength training and cardio training. Came back, took the actual physical assessment, and he walked in for us saying, this is the this is the,

00;03;32;21 - 00;03;37;09
Kyle Schwarz
the best nomination I've given to the Naval Academy in seven years.

00;03;37;11 - 00;03;38;15
Craig Andrews
Wow.

00;03;38;17 - 00;03;40;07
Kyle Schwarz
So, yeah, it was,

00;03;40;07 - 00;03;56;18
Kyle Schwarz
it was good. But that impact highlighted a few things. One, I don't quit when it comes to getting what I'm looking to do and what I think is for my if for my best and for those around me for their best and to the just for the the impact that he had on it to make it into a positive like this.

00;03;56;18 - 00;04;14;06
Kyle Schwarz
Like there's I think everyone feels that when you are highlighting a partnership that it's only good things, but some of the best relationships are born out of a negative occurrence that is then molded into a positive one. And like I said, he and I have been friends now for a couple decades at this point.

00;04;14;08 - 00;04;27;12
Craig Andrews
Yeah, no. And that's awesome. Well, and, you know, and there's there was actually a lot of value added to by him just being so candid that's changed your life.

00;04;27;15 - 00;04;28;24
Kyle Schwarz
Yeah, absolutely.

00;04;28;24 - 00;04;37;29
Kyle Schwarz
And I've got other examples similar to that space, but that one stands out and I think it's because of the, the most recent connections with becoming a be a blue and gold officer myself.

00;04;38;02 - 00;04;58;08
Craig Andrews
You know, I know somebody in a leadership position. I'm not going to say too much because I want folks to drill in, but he hates confrontation, and so he'll never have the difficult conversations. And he's in the process of losing one of his employees because he won't have the difficult conversations.

00;05;00;19 - 00;05;09;27
Kyle Schwarz
So he's in a leadership role, but would you I at that point, that qualifies. I know there's different definitions of each, but that qualifies as more of a manager role than it is a leader role.

00;05;09;29 - 00;05;15;00
Craig Andrews
Well, I hadn't thought about it that way, but I think you're right. I think you're right.

00;05;15;02 - 00;05;16;22
Kyle Schwarz
You know, I there's,

00;05;16;22 - 00;05;22;18
Kyle Schwarz
there's a it's a relatable quote. I know probably most of the people listening to this are familiar with Simon Sinek.

00;05;22;18 - 00;05;34;15
Kyle Schwarz
His impact, of course, in the training of the corporate world, the understanding of empathy within your employees and your culture. One of his best quotes that sticks with me to this day is, you know, credibility is not.

00;05;34;21 - 00;05;53;01
Kyle Schwarz
And so I'm missing that. Equated as credibility as a leader is not given by asking for by offering help. It's given by asking for help. And to me this sounds like a manager who has not made that cross into being able to ask for help, to have that hard conversation.

00;05;53;04 - 00;06;01;19
Craig Andrews
Yeah. No. Exactly. You know I not he's a great guy. I think I mean I know him, I think he's a wonderful guy.

00;06;01;19 - 00;06;08;13
Craig Andrews
But he's failing as a leader because he's not getting the help he needs in his life.

00;06;08;15 - 00;06;19;17
Kyle Schwarz
And being being nice, being friendly. Those are great prerequisites and obviously go a long way towards empathy. But that doesn't predetermine quality leadership styles.

00;06;19;19 - 00;06;30;06
Craig Andrews
What? So I'm curious, you know, what would you say that going into the academy? Would the academy teach you about leadership?

00;06;30;09 - 00;06;57;10
Kyle Schwarz
So I think that's another kind of common misnomer. The leader, the Naval Academy, certainly has its process and been doing it for almost 200 years. But to become a leader, you can't just teach that that's something that someone has to embody and want to be and take on board feedback. Be willing to have the mature conversations. So the Naval Academy is certainly one fantastic pathway to get exposure, to learn that about yourself and become that.

00;06;57;12 - 00;07;02;08
Kyle Schwarz
But that, again, is not a ticket to ride that you automatically graduate as a leader of people.

00;07;02;11 - 00;07;02;22
Craig Andrews
Right?

00;07;02;27 - 00;07;20;17
Kyle Schwarz
Don't want to. You have to want to develop and understand and get to know people. And that comes in no matter what school you go to. It could be a technical college down the street. It could be the, you know, the gentleman or the person who doesn't go to college at all, who has inherent and intrinsic leadership skills because that's what they want to be and embody those those values.

00;07;20;17 - 00;07;28;04
Kyle Schwarz
Just because I have a degree at the Naval Academy doesn't automatically qualify me as a leader over someone else, you know.

00;07;28;06 - 00;07;39;26
Craig Andrews
And you know, and I think the audience knows I was in the Marines. And when I was deployed to the Philippines, we had this supply officer who was just he was a mess. And,

00;07;39;26 - 00;07;48;19
Craig Andrews
I think it was a staff sergeant, staff sergeant. And Gunny just looked him in the eye one day and said, sir, you are no officer of Marines.

00;07;48;21 - 00;08;00;20
Craig Andrews
And and he got all upset. He went to the sergeant major and like, hey, the staff sergeant told me, I'm no officer, Marines. And the sergeant major said, he's right. Embarrass yourself away.

00;08;00;22 - 00;08;06;14
Kyle Schwarz
You got gotta love the senior enlisted. You really do. You got to love the senior enlisted. They are not afraid to tell it like it is.

00;08;06;14 - 00;08;19;14
Kyle Schwarz
There are stories of the highest levels of those folks being invited to stay behind, to talk with the three and four star admirals in the Pentagon and being listened to like they're there are some good quality people in those roles.

00;08;19;16 - 00;08;30;07
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, and it's it's kind of an example of what you were talking about. He had the brass on the shoulders, but he wasn't a leader. The brass didn't make him a leader. No.

00;08;30;09 - 00;08;36;03
Kyle Schwarz
You respect the uniform because of the authority it represents. But that doesn't necessarily respect the style or the person.

00;08;36;05 - 00;08;47;10
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Now, I have an obvious question. So you go to the Naval Academy. Why in the world didn't you choose the marine option?

00;08;47;12 - 00;08;51;11
Kyle Schwarz
Well, I mean, if you're defining marine as ocean going, I did this.

00;08;51;14 - 00;08;53;14
Craig Andrews
Yeah.

00;08;53;17 - 00;08;56;04
Kyle Schwarz
Truth be told, it was it didn't last long.

00;08;56;04 - 00;09;14;06
Kyle Schwarz
But there was a point where Marine Corps was an option I was looking into. Fortunately, the the Naval Academy has a program that they train and send all of their. Let me back that up a little bit. When you go to the Naval Academy, you don't commit to the five years of service until the start of your junior year.

00;09;14;06 - 00;09;31;01
Kyle Schwarz
So you could do the first two years and then leave the Naval Academy and not owe anything back in terms of service or monetary value for your education. But the moment you signed the papers as a junior, as a second class, they call it you now are committed to the next two years of education for the next five years of service after that.

00;09;31;04 - 00;09;42;18
Kyle Schwarz
The reason I bring that up is that that summer before you do that, the Naval Academy has a program called Program It, where they have you go out and do a tour on a surface ship tour on a submarine tour with a marine Corps unit and ask me in,

00;09;42;18 - 00;09;47;22
Kyle Schwarz
Quantico and a tour with an aviation group, usually in either Norfolk or San Diego.

00;09;47;29 - 00;09;58;01
Kyle Schwarz
And so they give you a good week to two weeks per training to get a feel for what it's going to be like a day in the life. I did a couple days approaching it at at,

00;09;58;01 - 00;10;05;28
Kyle Schwarz
at Quantico. I respect the heck out of those people. That was not my wife.

00;10;06;00 - 00;10;06;28
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well,

00;10;06;28 - 00;10;18;05
Craig Andrews
yeah. That's cool. Yeah, I didn't realize. I didn't realize that was. I mean, I always knew that there was a, you know, you could you could choose a marine option. I didn't know how that went about.

00;10;18;08 - 00;10;31;04
Kyle Schwarz
The Academy calls it program. And then I believe most of the reserved groups are like, if you're affiliated with a reservist training unit out of state, like Notre Dame or those other schools, I think they call it quarter MIT. So they're the same type of thing.

00;10;31;07 - 00;10;34;03
Craig Andrews
Very cool. Well let's

00;10;34;03 - 00;10;36;16
Craig Andrews
let's pivot a little bit and talk about

00;10;36;16 - 00;10;44;04
Craig Andrews
talent acquisition, you know, recruiting. Yeah. So how did you get into that?

00;10;44;06 - 00;10;53;10
Kyle Schwarz
You know it's funny you get out of the Navy. Well, first I graduated the academy with, of all things in ocean engineering degree. Obviously, I haven't used that a day in my corporate life,

00;10;53;10 - 00;11;12;11
Kyle Schwarz
at this point, but I graduated with that. I did my five years as a surface warfare officer, as you kind of alluded to. And you think when you get out of that, you're going to be an operations manager, a leader of people, like you're going to step into a role where people are going to you're going to be responsible for folks underneath you.

00;11;12;14 - 00;11;33;07
Kyle Schwarz
I got masks matched with a company at the time called Orion International, now known as Orion Talent, and they specialize in placing transitioning military veterans, be it former enlisted as well as junior officers, into the corporate American world. And I went as a candidate for one of our conferences out of Virginia Beach. That was where my career in the Navy ended, was in Norfolk, and I got out.

00;11;33;10 - 00;11;57;07
Kyle Schwarz
I got matched up and they had an opportunity for an account executive role within Orion itself, which is a much more sales problem solving role, where you're doing business to business. I'm a very competitive guy, and I knew immediately when I heard what that job required and that it was one of those kind of you're solving problems, but it's also you're an independent contributor, like you're there to win in some capacity.

00;11;57;07 - 00;12;16;06
Kyle Schwarz
And winning can be defined by a number of metrics. But it's that competitive market that I want to solve this problem, solve it the right way, as quickly as I can for my prospective clients. Come to find out, I reflect back on it. My dad was a commercial insurance salesman in Chicago for 23 years. My grandfather sold payroll while also being a reservist in the Navy.

00;12;16;08 - 00;12;36;10
Kyle Schwarz
So sales has been something I have been used to for a long time, and I grew up constantly hearing my dad with his relationship. Sales always be conversational to where he knew about their families, they knew about him, and that was the that was their relationship and the partnership that I wanted to embody immediately.

00;12;36;12 - 00;12;59;11
Craig Andrews
Which surprises me a little bit when I think about, you know, the recruiters I've worked with, it's kind of come in, get the job done and go out. Now, I there were a couple of recruiters. I actually have one that invited me to come stay at his lake house, and I did. I was traveling back east. He's like, oh, you're going to be coming by, stay in my house.

00;12;59;11 - 00;13;01;08
Craig Andrews
We'll go out on the lake. And

00;13;01;08 - 00;13;08;05
Craig Andrews
but he was doing that because he was hoping to place me in the future and get the getting a bonus. But,

00;13;08;05 - 00;13;14;23
Craig Andrews
you know, a lot of the recruiters, it's just been more about the, the business.

00;13;14;26 - 00;13;39;24
Kyle Schwarz
And that's. I hate to say that that is probably more common than it really should be, especially in the people business. Like this is companies and employers and future leaders in those companies should not be fearful or afraid of the partners that they're creating to find their future teammate. What kind of a culture is that inspiring? You know, if all we're being good at is a tax collector, that's not a partnership, that's a vendor.

00;13;39;27 - 00;13;56;21
Kyle Schwarz
And I know that it probably cost me commissions, sure, to view it that way. And I won't lie, I'm not perfect. I know that there were plenty, especially early on, that I made placements in matches that I shouldn't. They were not right for the candidate. They weren't right for the client. But you're early on. You don't learn that until later.

00;13;56;21 - 00;14;15;24
Kyle Schwarz
It only becomes at a point where not even if you're comfortable financially, you just know this is what is right. Because the relationship that I'm forging now is one that I'm going to maintain and look to grow and ideally have down the road and just be connected with. And I take great pride in that, because even with this new role, I've only been at races since the end of,

00;14;15;24 - 00;14;23;29
Kyle Schwarz
at the end of April and I have a lot of people from my time at Orion and beyond that I am still talking to and engage with.

00;14;23;29 - 00;14;38;04
Kyle Schwarz
I still ask about their kids. There's a gentleman in Chicago who's a West Point grad. I don't fault him for it. It just happens to be. And he's got kids that are in that just graduated med school. He's got one that's in, the Junior National Hockey League like he's and and we ask about that, we talk about that.

00;14;38;05 - 00;14;48;21
Kyle Schwarz
We spend 28 minutes of a 30 minute call talking about family. And I take great pride in that because it means it was the right connection, the right match, even if we weren't the right solution at the time for what he needed.

00;14;48;23 - 00;14;51;06
Craig Andrews
You know?

00;14;51;08 - 00;15;15;15
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And it's, you know, something I talk about a lot. My business is. Yeah, I'm, you know, I'm a marketer and most marketers are doing transactional marketing. You know, they're trying to get something. The idea is, hey, I'm going to make an offer and hopefully get the quick win. And the thing that people miss about that is,

00;15;15;15 - 00;15;21;03
Craig Andrews
transactional clients are the least profitable and they're the least sticky.

00;15;22;06 - 00;15;23;07
Kyle Schwarz
Exactly.

00;15;23;10 - 00;15;27;01
Craig Andrews
And all it takes is a better transaction to yank them away.

00;15;27;03 - 00;15;31;11
Kyle Schwarz
Yep. There's, there's a book I was recently introduced to

00;15;31;11 - 00;15;59;15
Kyle Schwarz
that I had never heard of before. It's called Leadership and Self-deception. And it talks about being in the box and putting others in a box. And when you get to the corporate business, like there's especially B2B sales, like you really do look at it as your metrics are what drive the conversation and then that also means you're now viewing the person on the other end of that phone or that email, whatever who it is you're talking to, be the business person or the candidate as a metric to drive your success.

00;15;59;15 - 00;16;08;21
Kyle Schwarz
You're not seeing them as the whole person that they are, which, if you're not seeing them as a whole person that they are, you can't then step up and have that human connection with them, you know?

00;16;08;24 - 00;16;30;27
Craig Andrews
Oh, well. And back when I was working for someone else and we'd use recruiters every now and then, the ones I like the best was I didn't want 20 resumes, I wanted three. Yeah. And it was people that knew me. I knew what I was looking for enough that,

00;16;30;27 - 00;16;36;07
Craig Andrews
that they'd send me the right resumes.

00;16;36;10 - 00;16;36;22
Craig Andrews
There's.

00;16;36;24 - 00;16;53;02
Kyle Schwarz
Pieces that go into the quality over quantity piece, and that starts right from the get go of not being afraid to be upfront and ask those questions and say, and really get a vibe for how does this make you feel? Not just what are you looking for in a candidate? Like, what is the expectation of this person that's going to join your team?

00;16;53;07 - 00;17;12;03
Kyle Schwarz
What should they be looking out to and looking out for to potentially join your team? And being that person that can say, you know we're not the right fit. We're not we're not the right solution for you. And at that point now you've made it and shown the personal investment, not just the potential monetary or financial one.

00;17;12;05 - 00;17;19;13
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well is and think it's it it's the long term view. I mean,

00;17;19;13 - 00;17;29;01
Craig Andrews
I would imagine when you're placing somebody, you're, you're not looking at as you're placing one person, you're placing that person plus the next five placements.

00;17;29;03 - 00;17;44;22
Kyle Schwarz
No. Exactly. I mean, to to put that kind of fine of a point on it. Yes. We want we're looking at this as that long term partnership. So we'll do the one role because we want to make sure we get a feel for you and what you're doing. And then you get a feel for our process. But we don't go into it thinking, okay, that's it for you.

00;17;44;23 - 00;17;56;05
Kyle Schwarz
You know, fire and forget and move on. We want this to be something that if we're going to get in business with you and develop that relationship, we want it to be, as you said, long term. We want to be the solutions provider. You can turn to.

00;17;56;07 - 00;18;19;28
Craig Andrews
So here's a question. I mean, inevitably in business, you're going to run into a client where you realize, okay, this is just I can't in good conscience place people in this organization. You're going to run into candidates that you're like, not only can I not place you here, but I don't want to place you anywhere. How do you deal with those situations?

00;18;20;00 - 00;18;37;14
Kyle Schwarz
So I would say the client one is probably the easiest one, at least for me. And the role I'm in ideal primarily with the clients at this point. You know, we have an entire good team at Raices that is focused on the fulfillment and the candidate engagement. I'm really looking to get the partnership with the corporate entities at this point, but in my past roles, I don't.

00;18;37;14 - 00;18;54;17
Kyle Schwarz
Ryan or anywhere else that I've been a part of, you just basically have to say, here's the challenge we're seeing, and this is what we need to talk about. And if they're willing to come to the table and talk about it, then you've prepared that. I have several examples in my past of having that conversation. We fixed it.

00;18;54;17 - 00;19;11;23
Kyle Schwarz
They took they took a great effort to to get there and realized, you're right, this isn't the right way to do it. And we're still talking. We're still friends today. Others can't take that feedback on board. And I imagine your friend that you mentioned earlier is probably one that doesn't want to have that hard conversation, and it's just time to go find something else.

00;19;11;25 - 00;19;31;17
Kyle Schwarz
And that they were looking at a recruiting firm with the candidates. I don't that one. I was probably brutally honest with you. I'll be very frank with that one. I will take that on board. I probably just flat out said, you can't do this. This is not the right way to do it. And unless you have any leads, you have no interest in changing.

00;19;31;17 - 00;19;37;17
Kyle Schwarz
We're done. And that would entice. But that's not the right way to have done it either.

00;19;37;19 - 00;19;50;26
Craig Andrews
There was one time there was a recruiter I was working with, and I think it was. I don't think I'd done much work with them, but they sent me some resumes and let's say that they did a good job of narrowing them down. And I did a phone interview with,

00;19;50;26 - 00;20;02;27
Craig Andrews
with somebody and decided to pass. And then I got, like the most angry email ever from this guy, at which point I printed it out.

00;20;03;00 - 00;20;16;00
Craig Andrews
I wrote the name of the recruiter on that, and I took it to our HR and said, hey, just so you know, this this recruiter sent us this angry person. Yes.

00;20;16;03 - 00;20;37;27
Kyle Schwarz
Anyone can pretend to be just about anything for 45 minutes. You know, I only did. It only takes time and real involvement to get that. See the true colors. And I would argue that in that case, that recruiter probably just saw the technical fit and didn't dive into this. The subjective question is that cultural fit or else that would have been a flag and a challenge identified right out of the gate.

00;20;38;00 - 00;20;54;13
Craig Andrews
Yeah, well, and I didn't realize immediately, but at that company, the recruiters that we worked with, I found out that after after the interview, they would ask them, hey, how'd your interview go with Craig? I apparently developed a reputation for having the tougher,

00;20;54;13 - 00;20;55;29
Craig Andrews
questions.

00;20;55;29 - 00;20;59;03
Craig Andrews
But there was, you know, for me, I was always looking for questions.

00;20;59;10 - 00;21;12;00
Craig Andrews
I would always test on fundamentals. And that was kind of the culture of the company we had people who are good at fundamentals can figure out the complicated stuff. If you don't know the fundamentals, you'll never be able to do much.

00;21;12;03 - 00;21;31;07
Kyle Schwarz
No. No doubt. And there are certainly technical jobs out there where the only requirement are being able to hit the technical, the technical specs on your resume. But in most cases, especially with the higher level roles, the ones that are going to be responsible for not just people within a company, but helping to drive that company's vision, that company's culture forward.

00;21;31;09 - 00;21;51;06
Kyle Schwarz
You have to ask the subjective questions. The resume is your ticket to ride at this point. If I send you a resume, we've already qualified him for the job specs, but that also means we had to qualify them for the cultural ones and the subjective ones, and there's a lot more invested in that. And so if companies are not willing to look into that, that's going to provide challenges to the one you just described.

00;21;51;09 - 00;22;01;12
Craig Andrews
I got a question for you. I have a buddy who is in amazing. He's absolutely amazing, super talented.

00;22;01;12 - 00;22;05;22
Craig Andrews
He made me very successful because of his talents. And,

00;22;05;22 - 00;22;17;06
Craig Andrews
and he went off and got argumentative on LinkedIn and ended up getting himself banned from LinkedIn.

00;22;17;08 - 00;22;23;01
Craig Andrews
It feels like if you're not on LinkedIn, it's hard to get a job.

00;22;23;03 - 00;22;39;09
Kyle Schwarz
It's certainly, I would say for certain roles it up. Absolutely. It is. It is. It is a platform that if you are banned, I don't know what was said or how. I know that getting banned on platforms like that isn't the easiest thing to do. So I don't even want to know what it was that sparked that.

00;22;39;09 - 00;22;44;13
Kyle Schwarz
But now it does seem like LinkedIn is really a great tool to get out there because I,

00;22;44;13 - 00;22;46;00
Kyle Schwarz
I again, I'm in a recruiting firm.

00;22;46;00 - 00;23;00;27
Kyle Schwarz
I'd love to tell you that recruiting firms place 90% of the people in the world. We don't. We help, we guide, we make connections. And LinkedIn is a great place to help those connections flourish and become important, especially the longer you're in corporate America or in the corporate sector.

00;23;00;27 - 00;23;04;11
Kyle Schwarz
That said, it is not a black spot, and I'll be all.

00;23;04;13 - 00;23;28;04
Kyle Schwarz
There's another reason recruiting firms are here, because we have those connections. So I would say it will take a little bit to check the boxes and maybe even a little bit higher bar cultural fit wise, than what we would normally ask. But if this friend really does come across as authentic and knows they made a mistake and owns up to it and is accountable for it, then a recruiting firm can absolutely help kind of go past that piece.

00;23;28;06 - 00;23;31;01
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah.

00;23;31;01 - 00;23;42;11
Craig Andrews
Yeah. I don't think he's apologetic about it, but it's it's a shame because he's really tall. He's very good when you get him in his lane. So here's something that's funny,

00;23;42;11 - 00;23;46;18
Craig Andrews
story about him. I had the Swedish guy that worked for me,

00;23;46;18 - 00;23;52;15
Craig Andrews
who, you know, and the Swedes are not very confrontational. And he was trying to get,

00;23;52;15 - 00;23;52;28
Craig Andrews
this far.

00;23;52;28 - 00;23;54;20
Craig Andrews
I'm not going to say his name.

00;23;54;20 - 00;23;56;24
Craig Andrews
I'll call him Joe. I'll call him Joe.

00;23;56;24 - 00;24;01;07
Craig Andrews
He was trying to get Joe to change the way he was doing a test. And,

00;24;01;07 - 00;24;05;29
Craig Andrews
harness the Swede is like, I can't get Joe to change. I can't get him to change and say, hey,

00;24;05;29 - 00;24;10;05
Craig Andrews
here's what you do. You go over and I said, you say these exact words.

00;24;10;08 - 00;24;31;09
Craig Andrews
Don't change a word. You go over there, say, Joe, you're all screwed up. You're doing the test wrong. It has to change. And about an hour later, harness came back. Is like, it worked. It worked. Next thing I know, my phone's ringing and Joe is like, what are you doing? Send your guys over here. Tell me I'm all screwed up.

00;24;31;12 - 00;24;43;16
Craig Andrews
I was like, got your attention, didn't it? And he's like, yeah, but he's that kind of guy that he he thrives in that type of conflict. Unfortunately, most people don't.

00;24;43;18 - 00;24;52;20
Kyle Schwarz
And I think that circles it back to what you were talking about at the very beginning of all of this, is that the leadership aspect is unafraid of having those conversations, even if it's about themselves.

00;24;52;23 - 00;25;04;12
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. Well, let me tell you another recruiting story, because this pulls out something else that's important in your world. So the the thing that brought me to Austin,

00;25;04;12 - 00;25;08;07
Craig Andrews
there was a company had been trying to recruit me for two years and,

00;25;08;07 - 00;25;13;26
Craig Andrews
and for some reason, they quit calling me directly, and they put a recruiter. I was like, guys, if you'd called, it was just a timing issue.

00;25;13;26 - 00;25;37;10
Craig Andrews
And I told them what the issue was before. And so the recruiter, they put a recruiter on recruiter gets me down here, I interview, I have an offer before I get on the airplane, go back to work in North Carolina, go and talk to one of my buddies. And he said, well, how is Austin? And I thought I had told him.

00;25;37;10 - 00;26;09;05
Craig Andrews
I was like, oh, that's great. And he said, so are you going to take it? And I was like, what are you talking about? Paul? He's like, well, you got a job offer. And I was like, how do you know that another recruiter had called him, not the one that brought me here. Another recruiter called him, not only told them that I had a job offer, but Tol and I asked him was like, well, Paul, do you know how much the offer is?

00;26;09;05 - 00;26;29;19
Craig Andrews
He said, yep. I said, tell me. He had it to the penny. He knew the offer to the penny. There were like three people on the earth. Maybe, you know, my hiring manager, you know, whoever had to approve that, you know, in HR, right? Am I recruiter and myself? Yes.

00;26;29;19 - 00;26;34;21
Kyle Schwarz
And there's some red flags and legalities there.

00;26;34;23 - 00;26;52;04
Craig Andrews
And I you know, when I got there, I immediately called my manager. I said this happened. Any discussions? The recruiters out of the loop. And everybody tried to tell me that this recruiter would never do that. I'm like, who did?

00;26;52;07 - 00;27;16;15
Kyle Schwarz
I yeah, I think the writing's on the wall with that one. I, I've certainly been in situations where I have worked with a candidate. Either I made the placement and I knew that this was taking that job, or I was representing another candidate that was going for the same job or same company, and I would get the notice that either my candidate or the other candidate got the job, and then I have to have the conversation with the other candidate saying, hey, job has been filled.

00;27;16;18 - 00;27;23;03
Kyle Schwarz
Let's see what else we've got for you. But that's par for the course. That's standard. But what you described is,

00;27;23;03 - 00;27;25;15
Kyle Schwarz
yeah.

00;27;25;17 - 00;27;31;28
Craig Andrews
So what is the standard of confidentiality? How is that managed in your world?

00;27;32;01 - 00;27;52;11
Kyle Schwarz
So a lot of things we've worked with everything for companies that require NDAs. Obviously there are some of those classified confidential sources. It's not exactly something you want to go broadcast that you're going to go find the head of HR for X company when ahead of HR, is probably involved in the conference, or is seeing the traction. So we have NDAs that we can utilize.

00;27;52;14 - 00;27;56;00
Kyle Schwarz
I depending on the relationship with the client in the in the client,

00;27;56;00 - 00;28;12;23
Kyle Schwarz
if it's a brand new client that we've never worked together before, they're not going to get anything in terms of personally identifiable information off of a candidate from us until we have that contract signed back to us. And that's just that's just a good trust and a good step into the trusting relationship piece of it.

00;28;12;25 - 00;28;32;03
Kyle Schwarz
That said, we are talking internally when I say this. I mean all the recruiters myself, those of us at Raices, we are all talking to each other. We have account managers all going, here's the process, here's what we know. And we always have the team kind of huddle before offers go out telling other candidates they're not going, especially if it's kind of that sensitive scenario.

00;28;32;06 - 00;28;37;13
Kyle Schwarz
I will say it really doesn't happen quite as much as you might think. In a in that case,

00;28;37;13 - 00;28;40;23
Kyle Schwarz
the biggest thing is we just don't send out information willy nilly.

00;28;40;25 - 00;28;50;09
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah, I think this was one recruiter that was bragging to lambda's competitors. You.

00;28;50;11 - 00;29;00;14
Kyle Schwarz
Yeah. Well, that was the question. Was it was this other recruiter working in the same firm as that recruiter? It was an entirely different. Oh, different. Okay, that's even worse. Got it. Okay.

00;29;00;16 - 00;29;02;26
Craig Andrews
I think he was just bragging that got the kill.

00;29;02;28 - 00;29;17;09
Kyle Schwarz
Got it. Because we encounter that in other scenarios in the background where it was internal team conversation at a previous employer, but never, never would have told X recruiting firm about that. No, no.

00;29;17;11 - 00;29;22;16
Craig Andrews
You know so let's wrap up with this psoriasis. That's an interesting name.

00;29;22;16 - 00;29;26;06
Craig Andrews
What's the origin race is talent partners. So our.

00;29;26;06 - 00;29;27;07
Kyle Schwarz
Our three founders,

00;29;27;07 - 00;29;48;19
Kyle Schwarz
all come from an HR in the corporate space background that they could do. They brought the right approach to the engagement with human in the personal services. And so Raices is Latin for laughter. So the idea here is that partnering with a firm to find your next team player should not be a painful or dreaded process.

00;29;48;19 - 00;30;07;08
Kyle Schwarz
You should be able to relate with them and enjoy the process. Enjoy working with them. We have an entire document called the RTP way that highlights exactly what is expected of the internal employee engaging with both the customer and then also with the candidate to ensure everyone has the best process possible. Does it always happen? Of course not.

00;30;07;08 - 00;30;17;26
Kyle Schwarz
But we're not afraid to have that conversation and learn from that either. So we want it to be something that maybe you don't always look forward to, but you're certainly not dreading it and avoiding it.

00;30;17;29 - 00;30;23;06
Craig Andrews
Yeah. That's awesome. Well, Carl, how can people reach you?

00;30;23;08 - 00;30;31;06
Kyle Schwarz
So I am on LinkedIn. I did not get black spotted on there. So you can find me there Kyle. In fact, it's Kyle Schwartz.

00;30;31;06 - 00;30;33;21
Kyle Schwarz
And that's me for last name.

00;30;33;23 - 00;30;36;27
Craig Andrews
Known to come. Yeah, I bet it's not.

00;30;37;04 - 00;30;39;17
Kyle Schwarz
The middle initial. There's no team in the in the last name.

00;30;39;17 - 00;30;43;18
Kyle Schwarz
My my contact info was all updated on there, but otherwise it's very simple. As Kyle

00;30;43;18 - 00;30;46;13
Kyle Schwarz
Schwartz at Raices talent.com.

00;30;46;16 - 00;30;49;02
Craig Andrews
Excellent. Well, thanks for coming on Layers and Legacies.

00;30;49;04 - 00;30;55;15
Kyle Schwarz
I appreciate you having me. This was a great conversation. Thanks for the time.

00;30;55;15 - 00;31;22;11
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Ally's for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this

00;31;22;11 - 00;31;24;06
Craig Andrews
episode on social media.

00;31;24;08 - 00;31;47;18
Craig Andrews
Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or posted on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest. Tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.

00;31;47;20 - 00;31;55;25
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up. Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.

00;31;55;25 - 00;33;58;00
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Ally's for me.com. Or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.