Jennifer Bookspan knows that leadership isn’t about filling seats—it’s about shaping the future of an organization. In this episode, she joins Craig Andrews to discuss how her firm, Bookspan Search Partners, goes beyond typical executive recruiting to help companies build intentional, aligned leadership teams.

Jennifer shares why the best leaders are usually the best listeners, and how humility, clarity, and vision all factor into successful hiring. She explains what most founders get wrong when searching for executive talent and how her team helps them avoid costly misfires.

From hard-earned lessons to practical hiring frameworks, Jennifer breaks down how to approach leadership with discipline, empathy, and a long-game mindset. If you're building a leadership team—or trying to level up your own leadership skills—this episode delivers real takeaways you can apply today.

Want to learn more about Jennifer Bookspan's work? Check out their website at https://bookspansearchpartners.com/about/.

Connect with Jennifer Bookspan on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenniferbookspan/.

Key Points & Timestamps

• 01:42 – Jennifer’s early lessons in leadership
• 04:58 – Why traditional executive search often fails
• 08:13 – Traits Jennifer looks for in high-impact leaders
• 12:27 – How to align hires with company values and mission
• 16:45 – The importance of clarity and communication
• 21:30 – Coaching founders through key leadership transitions
• 26:05 – Mistakes companies make when hiring executives
• 30:49 – What makes a “teachable” leader
• 34:10 – The long-term impact of intentional hiring
• 38:52 – Jennifer’s advice to first-time founders building teams

Transcript

00;00;05;20 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment in my career.

00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;14
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on this show.

00;00;51;17 - 00;00;53;28
Craig Andrews
Today I went welcome Jen Bookspan.

00;00;54;01 - 00;01;25;00
Craig Andrews
She is a community builder, a talent innovator, a people leader, a recruitment strategist, a diversity champion. She's a founder of books, bands, search partners. She helps find your executive talent and get them in place. And big, big focus on building and scaling. I was talking to somebody yesterday. They said the number one problem they have was they can't scale fast enough to find the business that requires the right people.

00;01;25;03 - 00;01;30;13
Craig Andrews
Jen solves those problems. Jen, welcome the leaders and legacies.

00;01;30;15 - 00;01;34;19
Jen Bookspan
Thank you Craig, it's really great to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

00;01;34;21 - 00;01;39;14
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well and you know, hey, let's I mean, first off, let's let the folks know how we met. We

00;01;39;17 - 00;01;51;23
Craig Andrews
were both in a group called Success Champions Networking. And this isn't an ad blitz, a strictly B2B networking group. And I'm fairly new. How long have you been in it?

00;01;51;26 - 00;01;54;22
Jen Bookspan
Since last March. So about just less than a year.

00;01;54;24 - 00;01;57;27
Craig Andrews
Okay. See, it's funny, you feel like an old timer to me.

00;01;58;03 - 00;02;09;02
Craig Andrews
I feel like the new guy. But the but the thing that I've really loved is just the quality of people that I've met. And you're certainly one of them.

00;02;09;05 - 00;02;23;26
Jen Bookspan
Yeah. And I loved your story. I got to know you remember and heard your story. And stories mean a lot to me. When I get to know people and understand what what they've been through and what their experiences are as well. So thanks for sharing.

00;02;23;28 - 00;02;48;04
Craig Andrews
Oh, absolutely. It was you know, it's weird. I, I surprised people went home. That was the most literally the most exciting. The six months after I got out of the hospital was the most exciting time of my life. It's the I've never had a time in my life where I set some ridiculous goals and hit them so quickly, and then had to set new, ridiculous goals and hit those quickly.

00;02;48;06 - 00;02;51;11
Craig Andrews
It was really exciting.

00;02;51;13 - 00;03;11;00
Jen Bookspan
Well, I think that it's it was it is such a when you come that close to not making it, I think you think differently. Right. I would guess like about life and about how, how limited and how fragile our time is and our. Yeah.

00;03;11;03 - 00;03;12;18
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And it's

00;03;12;21 - 00;03;16;20
Craig Andrews
Yeah, it's it's it's an interesting experience, but let's,

00;03;16;20 - 00;03;32;20
Craig Andrews
so so you have you help people find their, senior leadership team and that's what like director and above it's tweets and what have you. Yeah. That's an interesting niche. I mean, I've never worked

00;03;32;23 - 00;03;43;10
Craig Andrews
never worked with a recruiter that does those type of placements and seems like it would be a lot different than a lot of the recruiters I worked with.

00;03;43;13 - 00;03;50;06
Jen Bookspan
Well, I think that all all everyone on your team as a leader is, is important. So I don't

00;03;50;06 - 00;04;07;06
Jen Bookspan
and I think everyone, no matter what from from an a from someone who's assisting you or someone who's helping you run the building to your CEO. But what I, what I think is that for me, if I can help you with those, what I would consider those,

00;04;07;09 - 00;04;18;26
Jen Bookspan
very specific legs of the stool people who help provide a lot of leadership to the team, then it is it can be incredible for your organization.

00;04;18;28 - 00;04;26;07
Jen Bookspan
So that's how I see it as like, I this is where I can make significant impact for you. So that's where I'm going to spend my time.

00;04;26;10 - 00;04;31;28
Craig Andrews
Yeah. You know, one of the stories I think about and,

00;04;32;00 - 00;04;49;18
Craig Andrews
I if I maybe one day I'll take time, I'll dig in to understand it better. But it's fascinating. I'm sure you remember when Jack Walsh retired, you know, and, you know, last century, you know, people were calling him the CEO of the century. He was just a genius.

00;04;49;21 - 00;05;10;08
Craig Andrews
And, you know, he picked he he narrowed his list down to three successors. And he told all three, he said, I want to know who's going to run the business, because those that don't get picked, you guys can go run companies and you will. And so sure enough, you know, Jeffrey,

00;05;10;08 - 00;05;14;21
Craig Andrews
Immelt got picked and he kind of broke GE.

00;05;14;23 - 00;05;21;07
Craig Andrews
And then they had the guy but at least took him, you know, a decade or more to break GE.

00;05;21;10 - 00;05;31;03
Craig Andrews
Then they took one of the guys left and joined Home Depot. And he made a wreck of that and got a $200 million golden parachute. And,

00;05;31;03 - 00;05;40;05
Craig Andrews
you look at that and you're like, these these guys were mentored by one of the best year ever.

00;05;40;07 - 00;05;50;16
Craig Andrews
And one wreck GE and the other one, you know, briefly wrecked Home Depot. How did that happen? How does it from a talent perspective, how did that happen?

00;05;50;18 - 00;06;14;29
Jen Bookspan
There are many things that go on when I think about it. First of all, you can take someone who is brilliant in one environment and take them to another environment or another organization, and it's just a not a good mix. It's like the bad ingredient or the people, the processes, the systems, the leadership might be different and you're bringing something with you when you go.

00;06;15;01 - 00;06;39;01
Jen Bookspan
The other thing is, I don't know the details. We'd have to uncover it. But this person, Jeffrey, was likely not Jack Welch. Right. So he did things differently, and he probably had to build a different team around him or think differently because he's not the same person. We're all unique people. So I think you do have to look at every time there's a new leader, it's it's it's going to be different.

00;06;39;01 - 00;06;49;16
Jen Bookspan
And they bring different strengths to the table, and they have to think about how they're going to lead. And and it's going to be different than the predecessor.

00;06;49;18 - 00;07;08;26
Craig Andrews
Yeah that's a good point. It's a good point. And yeah. And so if Jack set the culture for 20 years and then Jeff comes in, he's like we're going to do. And he made some changes. I think I know one thing he sent out,

00;07;08;26 - 00;07;15;21
Craig Andrews
you know, tied to a presidential election. He said, all right, you know, guys, agenda is the president's agenda.

00;07;15;23 - 00;07;22;19
Craig Andrews
And I felt like that was a colossal mistake. I'm like, really? You're you're tying the future of a, you know,

00;07;22;19 - 00;07;33;08
Craig Andrews
you know, century old company to the choices of somebody who, by law will be out of office and, you know, 4 or 8 years maximum. And,

00;07;33;10 - 00;07;42;08
Craig Andrews
but, yeah, I mean, you make an interesting point that there's a lot of people they knew what Jack wanted, and they responded to Jack, and they knew how Jack wanted to be communicated.

00;07;42;08 - 00;07;46;20
Craig Andrews
So and here's a completely different person.

00;07;46;22 - 00;07;57;25
Jen Bookspan
Yeah. And I also think that you would know this, Craig. Companies go through different cycles and they need different things at different times. As well. So think about Steve Jobs. Yeah.

00;07;58;01 - 00;08;10;09
Jen Bookspan
You know brilliant but had flaws for real. But the company itself, the life cycle of the company is also a big part of this. Like where are we are we in the founding stage?

00;08;10;09 - 00;08;31;11
Jen Bookspan
Are we in the scaling stage? Are we in the what I would consider more mature growth stage? Are we winding down? And part of it is us, like you and me and and all of us out here knowing who we are, knowing what our strengths are, and knowing what stages or stage is our like, brilliant place like where we are masterful because.

00;08;31;13 - 00;08;41;27
Jen Bookspan
So I always think it starts with the person. So I think it's like knowing who you are helps, then anchor yourself to then help others and help your organization as well.

00;08;42;00 - 00;08;45;08
Craig Andrews
Yeah, no. And that makes sense.

00;08;45;11 - 00;09;00;03
Craig Andrews
It's funny when you mention Steve Jobs. I was actually thinking about this a minute ago. The unsung hero of Apple's turnaround. Nobody ever hears about the CFO that was there in 97 when Steve Jobs came back to Apple. You know, just kind of setting the stage.

00;09;00;03 - 00;09;03;24
Jen Bookspan
Steve and so now go ahead. Go ahead.

00;09;03;24 - 00;09;23;13
Craig Andrews
Yeah, Steve fired the board of directors. That never happens Steve fired the board of directors. They fired a whole bunch of people, including their head of marketing. I remember watching a video from that time, the head of Mark, when Steve was coming back. The head of marketing was on stage with Steve, and Steve shot him. This like him was you look at that.

00;09;23;13 - 00;09;26;26
Craig Andrews
You look and you're like, oh yeah, this guy is getting fired. And,

00;09;26;26 - 00;09;45;19
Craig Andrews
and people are going elevators with Steve Jobs with a job. And when they got by the time they got off the elevator, they were fired. And you never hear about the CFO because Steve Jobs had a weakness. He had a love for business computers. The first one was Lisa, which was a complete failure.

00;09;45;21 - 00;10;05;23
Craig Andrews
He left Apple. He did the next cube, which was a business computer, which was also a failure. He came back to Apple and he said, we need a business computer. And the CFO that just watched Steve fire the board, fire a whole bunch of people, went up to Steve and said, Steve, we won't be able to turn the company around quickly enough with the business computer.

00;10;05;23 - 00;10;25;05
Craig Andrews
It has to be a personal computer for individuals. And that's that was the beginning of the iMac. And you never hear about this guy, but think about the guts. This guy had to go tell Steve he was wrong.

00;10;25;07 - 00;10;27;29
Jen Bookspan
And he made it. He stayed. He was able to stay.

00;10;28;01 - 00;10;30;19
Craig Andrews
Yeah, I think as far as I know, he did. Yeah.

00;10;30;21 - 00;10;41;29
Jen Bookspan
That would be an interesting story. I don't know, to interview that person and find out what he must have provided some really good data or something to help him steer that direction.

00;10;42;01 - 00;10;48;11
Craig Andrews
Well, he jointly helped Steve Jobs be a hero and save the company.

00;10;48;13 - 00;10;56;21
Jen Bookspan
Well have you did you watch by the way the championship, the national championship for college football on Monday.

00;10;56;23 - 00;10;58;29
Craig Andrews
No I messed it, I messed up okay.

00;10;59;02 - 00;11;01;26
Jen Bookspan
Well I've been really, I've been very fascinated with

00;11;02;04 - 00;11;19;23
Jen Bookspan
IU and they're there because they were able to turn that team around in two years. Basically it's never had they've never had a winning team. And one of the things that I've thought about a lot, which I think is interesting, is the coach Kurt signally he coached under Alabama.

00;11;19;25 - 00;11;54;23
Jen Bookspan
He has quite a track record, but he uses a lot of input and data points when he hires people, like when he picks people for the team. Yeah, that are unusual beyond the standard. And so I was thinking about how that matters in as a leader, like when you're hiring people, people will tell you who they are. If you if you spend enough time and you gather like you're gathering data on them, you can find out a lot with more time in spending.

00;11;54;26 - 00;12;10;07
Craig Andrews
That's it. That's an interesting statement. People will tell you who they are. My general impression is the time we lie. The most is when we're when we're dating our prospective spouse and when we're applying for a job.

00;12;10;10 - 00;12;46;29
Jen Bookspan
True, true. Well, you're how about your best self? You're putting your best self forward. How about that? The most? That's why I say spend more time like have more than one interview. Spend more time because sooner or later that real person is going to come through. It's like who they are. So it can be very valuable for you as a leader if you're if you are spending more time hiring, hire slow, fire fast like take, take time and get data points and get as many data points as you can in the process.

00;12;47;01 - 00;13;05;22
Craig Andrews
I mean, how do you do that? So let's say let's say that I just hired my or I just fired my CFO. That's an important role. I need somebody in that role quickly. I think they're like.

00;13;05;29 - 00;13;06;07
Jen Bookspan
Yeah.

00;13;06;08 - 00;13;07;21
Craig Andrews
Yeah, how do I do that?

00;13;07;23 - 00;13;27;25
Jen Bookspan
I think there's some, some options. A can you put someone some day? There's fractional CEOs now where you can put someone in place to just kind of help you while you're hiring someone else full time. So that's an option. Are there people on your team that can kind of take the critical pieces, because you really don't want to rush it?

00;13;27;25 - 00;13;47;20
Jen Bookspan
If you can help it, if sometimes you can't. But I think it's a big deal. So I think you try to look for a, a short term fix so you can make the right long term decision. That would be my my advice and then making. Yeah, making sure you have a real plan of who you want to hire in the process.

00;13;47;22 - 00;14;03;12
Craig Andrews
And how do you do that. So if you think about the candidates you're placing, these are people that don't have an abundance of time. Their time is very valuable. How do I go about getting that time in with people that don't have a lot of time.

00;14;03;14 - 00;14;31;03
Jen Bookspan
Well that's where I, a someone like me can help you get really clear about what you're looking for. And and having someone help you interview this person and vet them out ahead of time. You still want to spend the time yourself, but if you can hire someone who really knows how to look, look at for all the details and help you with that process and or people on your team, it's going to help you get to the right people.

00;14;31;05 - 00;14;49;13
Jen Bookspan
And then obviously there's tests you can do, testing you can do personality profiles. There's so many things that you can do. I kind of look at it as a Pi of all these things. And so I think the more that you have that process down, the more efficient it will be over the long haul.

00;14;49;15 - 00;14;51;19
Craig Andrews
So let's talk about test for a second.

00;14;51;22 - 00;14;53;21
Craig Andrews
I've heard that,

00;14;53;24 - 00;14;58;29
Craig Andrews
it's a compliance issue. Giving somebody like a Myers-Briggs test.

00;14;59;01 - 00;15;03;21
Jen Bookspan
I think there are tests that you have to look for. Something that has has been,

00;15;03;28 - 00;15;17;02
Jen Bookspan
passed the the qualifications in terms of you can use it for hiring and there are several there are some that aren't. So I think you have to look into that, of course. And I think also, Craig, you have to look at it this way.

00;15;17;04 - 00;15;37;07
Jen Bookspan
Everything's a data point. So I, I would be down to are people showing up on time when I meet with them? Are they calling me when they say they're going to do or. They are. They are their actions matching their words? What kind of production have they had? What have they done? So there's have they overcome things. So there's all these data points and that is just one piece of the,

00;15;37;09 - 00;15;38;16
Jen Bookspan
of the puzzle.

00;15;38;18 - 00;15;47;02
Craig Andrews
You know. So if I were working with you, let's say I was trying to fill, you know, a senior role in my company.

00;15;47;05 - 00;15;54;19
Craig Andrews
What are the things that you would look for? And let me, let me kind of give a framework, you know, when somebody hires me for marketing,

00;15;54;22 - 00;15;58;11
Craig Andrews
you know, I usually know, okay, they're looking at the wrong things.

00;15;58;11 - 00;16;01;16
Craig Andrews
They're measuring the wrong things, or. And so,

00;16;01;19 - 00;16;13;12
Craig Andrews
you know, depending upon if I want to be effective or fast, you know, I've found effective is always a longer process than just saying, oh, here's what you're doing wrong. Let me show you that, that, that, that, that,

00;16;13;15 - 00;16;22;06
Craig Andrews
that usually. Yeah, there usually ends up stepping on a couple toes, but I can usually identify very quickly what somebody is doing wrong,

00;16;22;09 - 00;16;23;25
Craig Andrews
and help guide them in the right thing.

00;16;24;01 - 00;16;32;28
Craig Andrews
What are some of the things what are some of the things that people just always get wrong? And how do you how would you help somebody like me navigate through that?

00;16;33;00 - 00;16;46;19
Jen Bookspan
That's a well a yes. People do a they want to hire someone directly from the competition. Sometimes that's good, sometimes it isn't. So you kind of have to look at why.

00;16;46;22 - 00;16;54;24
Jen Bookspan
I think the other thing is sometimes they just don't know what's going on in the market. So I try to get out and get data points for them, like what?

00;16;54;26 - 00;16;59;28
Jen Bookspan
What's going on with compensation? What's going on with the market.

00;17;00;03 - 00;17;17;13
Jen Bookspan
Can we think a little creatively? Like I said, most people just want to make it super easy. Like, I just want this person that's doing this thing from a competitor, which I understand. But sometimes you might if you're going to want to scale or you want. So I think it just depends on what the what you want to do.

00;17;17;16 - 00;17;32;14
Jen Bookspan
So what I start with is hey Craig in it. If we're successful in a year, what does success look like to you? And so it's like starting big and then kind of narrowing down on what we're looking for.

00;17;32;16 - 00;17;35;02
Craig Andrews
Okay. Then that makes sense.

00;17;35;05 - 00;17;36;04
Craig Andrews
No, I love that.

00;17;36;12 - 00;17;40;29
Craig Andrews
You always that's kind of our starting point. How do you define success?

00;17;41;02 - 00;17;42;13
Craig Andrews
And,

00;17;42;16 - 00;17;57;07
Craig Andrews
what are some examples where people have the wrong definition of success? They think they have the right definition and, you know, they're measuring the wrong thing.

00;17;57;09 - 00;18;25;04
Jen Bookspan
Yeah. I think that it success for them might be someone who has the experience, like the specific experience that they're looking for, but maybe they haven't scaled like they haven't. Let's say you're a $20 million company and you, you're going to go to 75 million this year. You're looking at hiring someone who has the experience in a small company, in a $20 million company, but they've never scaled.

00;18;25;07 - 00;18;52;27
Jen Bookspan
So we're going to look for like, what? So what are the most important things here? Because so I think you have to look at all the little ingredients or all the little pieces that that matter. And then sometimes it's just not realistic. Craig. Sometimes I'll say, hey, you want someone in an office with this skill set? Based on my research, there's ten people in the entire city that have this experience, so we might want to open up the lens a little bit and see what we can find.

00;18;52;29 - 00;18;56;08
Jen Bookspan
So I think it's a good like data point to.

00;18;56;11 - 00;18;59;21
Craig Andrews
So I used to work in the semiconductor industry,

00;18;59;21 - 00;19;03;13
Craig Andrews
specifically around mobile phones and

00;19;03;16 - 00;19;08;12
Craig Andrews
we had a big Motorola facility here in Austin. You had a big Motorola facility, you know,

00;19;08;12 - 00;19;14;13
Craig Andrews
semiconductor, you know, space, you know, the old Motorola semiconductor days. And,

00;19;14;13 - 00;19;16;15
Craig Andrews
Motorola hired this this guy,

00;19;16;18 - 00;19;21;29
Craig Andrews
I'll just give his first name, Sandeep, to, to run their wireless chipset business.

00;19;22;01 - 00;19;23;24
Craig Andrews
And I was talking to my boss,

00;19;23;27 - 00;19;39;18
Craig Andrews
and we were literally almost within eyesight of of Motorola. They were about a half mile down the road and told my boss and said, well, we can scratch them off the list of competition. He said, well, you mean and said, this guy is going to drive it into the ground. He's like, well, I've been talking to people.

00;19;39;18 - 00;20;00;18
Craig Andrews
They have a lot of respect for him. I'm like, I'm sure they do. I mean, because they gave him a huge position with a huge salary, golden parachute, all that, I said. But he ruined the last two businesses. He ran. He took them from number one in the market to out of business. And sure enough, within

00;20;00;21 - 00;20;07;19
Craig Andrews
you know, within like a year, he made them their wireless chipset business completely worthless.

00;20;07;19 - 00;20;13;14
Craig Andrews
So there was no buyer for it anywhere. He did that within a year.

00;20;13;17 - 00;20;18;00
Jen Bookspan
How did they hire him without knowing that.

00;20;18;02 - 00;20;38;00
Craig Andrews
He it he he didn't come from small obscure companies. I mean, I worked for him directly. Not, you know, not a directory port, but I worked for him, and he took us from, like, insane market share to,

00;20;38;03 - 00;20;49;06
Craig Andrews
irrelevant. And that brand no longer exists. And then he went to someone else and took them from number one.

00;20;49;08 - 00;21;07;28
Craig Andrews
They had the number one 3G chipset, you know, you remember the days of 3G when that was coming out? They had the number one 3G chipset in the world, and he ruined them. And they are no longer a brand. And they hired him after two massive failures.

00;21;08;00 - 00;21;11;05
Jen Bookspan
I wonder if he's a good salesman. He was a good salesman. Like,

00;21;11;05 - 00;21;29;29
Jen Bookspan
I know sometimes with companies what I see is they hire the resume like, oh, you've got some good brands. Da da da da da. But they don't hire the substance. Like what have they done? Because even if they're come from a good brand, have they delivered.

00;21;30;01 - 00;21;33;11
Jen Bookspan
Have they, have they got the goods underneath.

00;21;33;14 - 00;21;46;16
Craig Andrews
Well, and you were talking about experience. A lot of people hire on experience. And that was that was the example that came to mind. He had all the right experience. And I see companies hire, you know, I, I,

00;21;46;16 - 00;21;48;15
Craig Andrews
you know, I've joked for years, you know,

00;21;48;18 - 00;21;55;07
Craig Andrews
if you're in a senior position at one company, the best thing can happen is you can you get fired because somebody else will hire you.

00;21;55;07 - 00;21;57;03
Craig Andrews
And in more senior role, I mean, I've

00;21;57;03 - 00;22;12;19
Craig Andrews
seen it happen again and again and again and people saying, well, yes, right experience or she has the right experience. And so they he did I mean, he had worked on the right things. He had just wrecked everything in his path.

00;22;12;21 - 00;22;32;00
Jen Bookspan
I would be curious if you had the right production, though. Did he produce like he had experience, but did he produce like, did he drive revenue? Did you know, did he? And I wondered if to me it's like, gosh, if you just checked a few references on this guy, wouldn't you figure it out fairly quickly?

00;22;32;03 - 00;22;34;11
Craig Andrews
You didn't even have track references.

00;22;34;14 - 00;22;37;01
Jen Bookspan
Oh, so.

00;22;37;03 - 00;22;48;26
Craig Andrews
You worked here. There have business. Oh, you worked here? They're out of business. It's public. I mean, let's see. I see that here. Let me give you another example.

00;22;48;29 - 00;22;53;17
Craig Andrews
Have you noticed the quality of Google has gone down lately, like Google search results?

00;22;53;19 - 00;22;54;23
Jen Bookspan
Yes.

00;22;54;25 - 00;22;58;22
Craig Andrews
Okay. Yes. There's a guy. I forget his name.

00;22;58;25 - 00;23;10;01
Craig Andrews
But he was in charge of Yahoo organic search back in the days when Yahoo was a trusted search engine. Google hired him, pulled him into,

00;23;10;01 - 00;23;20;16
Craig Andrews
their paid search. They put him in charge of paid search. This is the guy who brokered the deal with Bing. That ultimately led to the eventual demise of Yahoo as a search engine.

00;23;20;18 - 00;23;21;15
Jen Bookspan
Okay.

00;23;21;17 - 00;23;37;24
Craig Andrews
Google hires him. They put him in charge of paid search. Google's always say, hey, there's this Chinese wall between, you know, organic search and paid search. But in their recent antitrust lawsuit, an email pops up from this guy where he's emailing the head of organic search saying, hey, my guys have it made.

00;23;37;24 - 00;23;39;17
Craig Andrews
Gotten their bonus in the last two quarters.

00;23;39;17 - 00;24;09;19
Craig Andrews
Can you adjust the search results so my guys hit their bonus and he is now they have now moved him ever to Google organic search and the quality is going down. Everybody sees it. But he had experience. But the first job that got him into Google was he destroyed Yahoo as a search engine.

00;24;09;21 - 00;24;12;16
Jen Bookspan
Okay. Is he is he still there? He's he's not Google now.

00;24;12;17 - 00;24;16;08
Craig Andrews
No, I mean still at Google now. He's continuing to make a mess of things.

00;24;16;10 - 00;24;20;16
Jen Bookspan
I don't know, it's it's crazy. I don't I just don't get it.

00;24;20;19 - 00;24;40;08
Craig Andrews
But that's, you know, kind of time back to what you were saying earlier. You said a lot of people are looking for the right experience. And just as me sitting back and observing, though, and by the way, it's easy for me to throw rocks at others. I'm going to share an example of a disastrous hire I did, and it still confounds me.

00;24;40;08 - 00;24;45;15
Craig Andrews
So I, I'm certainly not saying I do it right.

00;24;45;18 - 00;24;59;27
Craig Andrews
But I just look at this and observe them like I keep seeing people hire on experience and they just because they worked at the right company, they get a job with a promotion and another company.

00;24;59;29 - 00;25;12;26
Jen Bookspan
You're right. You're right. It's like people get googly eyed. So tell me about your disastrous hire because we've all had them. I've had them too. We all make mistakes in the process.

00;25;12;28 - 00;25;16;27
Craig Andrews
Well, I needed somebody to do client management, and,

00;25;17;03 - 00;25;25;29
Craig Andrews
because that's not my strong suit. You know, I can do it, but it, you know, it takes me being on my best behavior. It's not my, you know,

00;25;26;02 - 00;25;32;03
Craig Andrews
there are people that are way better at client management than I am. And, and,

00;25;32;03 - 00;25;33;24
Craig Andrews
and I have hand work for me, and,

00;25;33;24 - 00;25;35;08
Craig Andrews
but, you know,

00;25;35;11 - 00;25;41;08
Craig Andrews
I was looking to hire somebody I'd interacted with or, you know, you were talking about time.

00;25;41;10 - 00;25;44;06
Craig Andrews
I'd interacted with her a lot.

00;25;44;09 - 00;25;46;02
Craig Andrews
Felt like an you were pretty. Well,

00;25;46;05 - 00;25;54;21
Craig Andrews
and this is a little bit of a little bit of an experience, but I would say skills. She had previously been the events director for a resort.

00;25;54;24 - 00;26;08;06
Craig Andrews
So her clients were bridezilla and brides all. Mom. And I'm sitting there thinking, anybody who can navigate that job is probably going to be excellent to manage.

00;26;08;06 - 00;26;14;06
Craig Andrews
My clients. And it was a complete disaster.

00;26;14;09 - 00;26;25;14
Craig Andrews
I ended up having to fire her within, I think, three months. And it just it was like a complete disaster. She,

00;26;25;16 - 00;26;30;19
Craig Andrews
I caught her in client meetings doing other stuff.

00;26;30;22 - 00;26;40;20
Craig Andrews
Not focused on the. Not focused on the client, not focused on their business. The other stuff she was doing was not even for our business.

00;26;40;22 - 00;26;43;14
Craig Andrews
The,

00;26;43;17 - 00;26;47;16
Craig Andrews
you know, I had her hourly and,

00;26;47;18 - 00;26;52;24
Craig Andrews
and she, you know, put her time in and I think,

00;26;52;26 - 00;27;06;22
Craig Andrews
you know, I was gonna run payroll and she'd log, like, 10,000 hours in a pay period. I'm like, that's impossible. And when had happened was. And I told her to say, hey, something's wrong here. And she basically said, oh, yeah, I probably forgot to log out.

00;27;06;22 - 00;27;12;22
Craig Andrews
Can you fix it? Like, no.

00;27;12;25 - 00;27;18;03
Craig Andrews
I think that ended up being the violent one where I just like, okay, that's it.

00;27;18;08 - 00;27;31;14
Craig Andrews
But there were just. And, you know, I went her to run the meetings, and she, you know, and these aren't hard meetings to run. Hey, here's the things that we agreed to do. How's the progress?

00;27;31;17 - 00;27;49;24
Craig Andrews
You know, what do we need? I mean, this is not, you know, this is not splitting atoms. And she just. She was saying things that were just complete nonsense. That she, you know, she hadn't been listening to the client, hadn't been listening to what was being said.

00;27;49;27 - 00;28;00;28
Craig Andrews
It was just it was a disaster. And it to this day, I, it really shook my confidence because I, I've felt like I do a really good job of hiring the right people.

00;28;01;00 - 00;28;07;04
Craig Andrews
I feel like that's a skill I can I can look at a resume. As a matter of fact, years ago,

00;28;07;04 - 00;28;13;21
Craig Andrews
when I was still in semiconductors, my boss and I sat down and we were going to do on campus. He wanted me to do on campus,

00;28;13;21 - 00;28;17;06
Craig Andrews
interviewing. We stacked it and sat down with a big stack of resumes.

00;28;17;06 - 00;28;24;10
Craig Andrews
He split the stack. I went through my stack in about half the time as his and,

00;28;24;13 - 00;28;35;10
Craig Andrews
he's like, you're done. I'm like, yeah. He said, my, if I look at your discard poem, which sure. And goes through and he's like, hey, what's an Eagle Scout? He was Canadian. He was like, what's an Eagle Scout? So I oh, it's a big honor.

00;28;35;10 - 00;28;52;26
Craig Andrews
It's, you know, really big deal. And so, you know, you described an Eagle Scout and then it's like, you know, let me see it like, yeah, I don't think he has it. And it's like, would you be opposed to interviewing him? I said, sure. And so I interviewed him. It was by far the worst interview of the day.

00;28;52;29 - 00;29;09;29
Craig Andrews
I mean, so I, I have a pretty good nose and I've always prided myself. And then I hired this person. That was a complete disaster, and I still feel bad about it. I disrupted her life, disrupted my life.

00;29;10;01 - 00;29;14;22
Craig Andrews
And I still. I'm not sure what I missed.

00;29;14;24 - 00;29;28;29
Jen Bookspan
I think it just. I don't know, do you? Because part of me just feels like it's a it sounds like a different job. And maybe, I don't know, Craig, did you dig in deep with what she was doing? Also, with the work she was doing.

00;29;29;01 - 00;29;31;15
Craig Andrews
To help me understand that question?

00;29;31;18 - 00;29;50;25
Jen Bookspan
Yeah. In the end, I was just going to say, sometimes I know we make those snap judgments. I do like, you know, oh, you've done this. So therefore and sometimes it's like, well, what were they really doing? What were like, you know, what was the really the job maybe for real versus like what they tell you it is.

00;29;50;28 - 00;29;59;26
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And I don't want to share too many details to out this person. But I had directly observed her managing lots of details in another job.

00;29;59;27 - 00;30;16;04
Jen Bookspan
Okay. That's what makes life interesting. That's human beings are unique creatures, I don't know. And part of it is, like all the things like maybe, maybe it was it felt like a different role to her, I don't know.

00;30;16;06 - 00;30;37;07
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah, but. Well, hey, let me ask this before we wrap up. I, I always love talking to people who are in the people business, because when you deal with enough volumes of people, you always have that one story that you share with your friends over drinks. Like you wouldn't believe what happened. You've dealt with a lot of people.

00;30;37;07 - 00;30;40;16
Craig Andrews
What's what's one of those stories in your life?

00;30;40;18 - 00;30;48;23
Jen Bookspan
Yeah, I there are so many, but I, I did have one where someone will put a hex on me,

00;30;48;26 - 00;30;49;22
Jen Bookspan
or, or

00;30;49;22 - 00;30;53;05
Jen Bookspan
threaten to put a hex. And that was. Yeah, like.

00;30;53;05 - 00;30;54;08
Craig Andrews
A spiritual, like,

00;30;54;08 - 00;30;55;22
Craig Andrews
witchcraft.

00;30;55;24 - 00;31;03;03
Jen Bookspan
Yeah. Like wasn't happy. Sometimes people get very upset, so wasn't happy. They weren't going to get a role and

00;31;03;03 - 00;31;04;07
Jen Bookspan
decided that,

00;31;04;07 - 00;31;09;26
Jen Bookspan
send a note about what they were going to do. And that was a little weird, that that was a little,

00;31;09;26 - 00;31;14;18
Jen Bookspan
interesting, but okay, Craig, you know, you name it.

00;31;14;20 - 00;31;21;24
Jen Bookspan
Don't pass drug tests. Don't, you know, don't pass credit checks, lie about things.

00;31;21;26 - 00;31;22;06
Jen Bookspan
All the

00;31;22;06 - 00;31;26;17
Jen Bookspan
all the things you can imagine that happen in the process of of,

00;31;26;17 - 00;31;38;25
Jen Bookspan
not who they you think they are. So that's why looking for patterns is a big deal. But I don't know if I could have managed. I had no idea someone was going to try to put a hex on me that was like the craziest thing I'd ever heard.

00;31;38;27 - 00;31;39;11
Craig Andrews
That's

00;31;39;11 - 00;31;44;07
Craig Andrews
so are. Wow. Wow.

00;31;44;09 - 00;31;45;22
Craig Andrews
Well,

00;31;45;25 - 00;31;50;18
Craig Andrews
this has been fun. Yeah. I'm glad we finally got to have this conversation.

00;31;50;21 - 00;31;51;26
Craig Andrews
So you help people,

00;31;51;29 - 00;31;57;24
Craig Andrews
place fill their executive positions, director level and above. How can folks reach you?

00;31;57;26 - 00;31;59;21
Jen Bookspan
Yes, you can find me on LinkedIn.

00;31;59;24 - 00;32;02;29
Jen Bookspan
Jennifer. Book books. Been. I think my links in there.

00;32;03;02 - 00;32;10;14
Jen Bookspan
You can reach me. I think you'll have all the contact information. My website is book span. Search partners.com, and,

00;32;10;14 - 00;32;16;03
Jen Bookspan
or track me down. Just Jennifer books be on. You'll find me on. And if you look me up on Google.

00;32;16;06 - 00;32;19;00
Craig Andrews
Well, excellent. Well, thanks for coming on, Leaders and Legacies.

00;32;19;02 - 00;32;29;12
Jen Bookspan
Thank you so much, Craig. It was a pleasure to spend some time with you.

00;32;29;14 - 00;32;51;04
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Ally's for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this

00;32;51;04 - 00;32;52;29
Craig Andrews
episode on social media.

00;32;53;01 - 00;33;16;13
Craig Andrews
Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or posted on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest. Tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.

00;33;16;15 - 00;33;24;20
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up. Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.

00;33;24;20 - 00;33;34;29
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Ally's for me.com. Or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.