Trust is often treated as a vague leadership ideal, but Kim Bohr argues it’s one of the most measurable and practical drivers of performance inside organizations.
As President and CEO of SparkEffect, Kim works with executive teams navigating disruption without breaking trust. In this conversation, she explains how leadership failures rarely come from malicious intent. Instead, they stem from blind spots—small behaviors, missed signals, and unexamined habits that slowly erode trust within teams.
Kim shares how leaders can recognize these “micro-moments” that shape trust every day. Whether it’s acknowledging mistakes quickly, demonstrating transparency during difficult decisions, or showing curiosity instead of judgment, leaders have constant opportunities to strengthen relationships.
She also highlights why organizations often overlook leadership development at the frontline level, where trust issues frequently begin. Without the right skills and emotional intelligence, leaders unintentionally damage the culture they’re responsible for building.
Ultimately, Kim’s message is clear: trust is not abstract. It can be measured, strengthened, repaired, and intentionally built into how organizations operate.
Want to learn more about Kim Bohr's work? Check out their website at https://sparkeffect.com/.
Connect with Kim Bohr on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimbohr/.
Key Points with Timestamps
- 01:10 – Introducing Kim Bohr and the importance of trust
Kim explains her work helping executive teams manage disruption while maintaining trust. - 02:30 – Why trust should be treated like a measurable business KPI
Kim argues that trust is not a “soft” concept and can be evaluated and managed like other organizational metrics. - 03:00 – Where trust problems show up in organizations
Executive misalignment often appears to be a communication issue, but the root problem is usually trust. - 11:30 – Leadership development gaps in organizations
Many companies fail to invest in developing frontline leaders, which leads to breakdowns in trust and communication. - 13:00 – The power of admitting mistakes as a leader
Craig explains how beginning difficult conversations with “we screwed up” often leads to forgiveness and stronger relationships. - 19:20 – The small behaviors that erode trust daily
Kim describes how “micro-moments” — small actions or decisions — steadily build or break trust within teams. - 21:30 – Leading with curiosity instead of judgment
A simple shift from “Why are you late?” to “Are you okay?” can transform trust between colleagues. - 23:20 – The leadership playbook for when you make a mistake
Kim emphasizes owning mistakes quickly, acknowledging impact, and repairing relationships. - 25:00 – Why public mistakes require public accountability
When leaders make visible errors, public accountability helps restore credibility and trust. - 31:30 – Why trust failures drive talent away
When employees experience ethical or leadership breakdowns, they often leave for environments where trust already exists.
Transcript
00;00;05;20 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment in my career.
00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;07
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on this show.
00;00;51;10 - 00;01;12;18
Craig Andrews
Today I want to welcome Kim Bohr. She is the president and CEO of SparkEffect. She leads the firm in helping executive teams navigate this disruption without fracturing trust. And we just spent a lot of time in the green room. We probably should have been recording that. But trust is one of the topics that I just absolutely love.
00;01;12;18 - 00;01;13;26
Craig Andrews
I think it's,
00;01;13;29 - 00;01;27;16
Craig Andrews
it's important and easy to say, oh, yeah, yeah, we all need trust. Just like we all need love will make it into a Beatles song. No, this is something you one tune in and listen to. Because I think it's going to be phenomenally cool. Kim, welcome.
00;01;27;18 - 00;01;29;27
Kim Bohr
Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
00;01;29;29 - 00;01;30;11
Craig Andrews
The,
00;01;30;11 - 00;01;54;29
Craig Andrews
And so my fascination with trust is, you know, I'm a marketer that, you know, our clients do high ticket stuff, high ticket complex stuff in crowded markets, and they have to build trust. When you're talking about trust, you're talking about in the workplace, correct? Yeah. Yeah. I.
00;01;55;01 - 00;02;05;09
Craig Andrews
I think I think that's something that is handled flippantly. I've known organizations that I respect,
00;02;05;12 - 00;02;17;15
Craig Andrews
that actually have things like a no gossip policy. You know, you'll get like, one warning. You know, they're like, if you have a complaint, you have two people you can take it to. Neither take it to that person, or you can take it to their immediate boss.
00;02;17;18 - 00;02;24;23
Craig Andrews
If you take it to anybody else, we're going to fire you and because it destroys trust.
00;02;24;29 - 00;02;31;23
Kim Bohr
Yeah. Yeah. It also, though may also it may also not foster the right
00;02;31;26 - 00;02;48;20
Kim Bohr
setting either for what you know, they're wanting. That may not be the right behaviors influencing the right, you know, the outcomes they want. I think, you know, trust is the often in this squishy thing. And it's really now becoming something that should be looked at more seriously, more as,
00;02;48;20 - 00;02;53;25
Kim Bohr
you know, the same kind of KPIs you have with other things you measure, like it's a it has real, tangible,
00;02;53;28 - 00;02;57;11
Kim Bohr
elements to it that I think have been overlooked for too long.
00;02;57;13 - 00;03;07;10
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Now, when you're working with trust, are you focused more the executive level or deeper in the organization? What levels are you addressing?
00;03;07;13 - 00;03;24;07
Kim Bohr
So in our organization are we we address trust at multiple levels. I do a lot of work specifically with executive teams and CEOs. So I work with CEOs around their performance evaluations when they hire us as a third party to come in and do the work. I also,
00;03;24;07 - 00;03;24;23
Kim Bohr
work with,
00;03;24;29 - 00;03;30;28
Kim Bohr
executive teams that are misaligned. And, you know, inevitably when teams are talking about
00;03;31;01 - 00;03;34;15
Kim Bohr
some kind of misalignment, sometimes they point to communication.
00;03;34;17 - 00;03;44;12
Kim Bohr
When you really unpack it, underlying that is really the trust. It's not just communication is one of the factors that's impacting trust in a negative way.
00;03;44;14 - 00;04;06;21
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, and I think I mean the one thing that's that's true, I mean in my work we try to shortcut the trust ethically and strategically, but it's it's a thing that takes a long time to build. And I mean, I think back to my very first job out of college,
00;04;06;24 - 00;04;13;03
Craig Andrews
my job before college was six years in the Marine Corps, which is a pretty regimented environment.
00;04;13;05 - 00;04;26;08
Craig Andrews
And my first job out of college, I think it was my performance review it the first year I hit my first year anniversary out of college, and my boss is meeting with me, and he's like, was there anything that
00;04;26;08 - 00;04;30;12
Craig Andrews
we could do better here? And I was like, oh no, it's great. You know, which of course was a lie.
00;04;30;15 - 00;04;31;00
Craig Andrews
And,
00;04;31;00 - 00;04;32;08
Craig Andrews
and it's like,
00;04;32;11 - 00;04;56;05
Craig Andrews
well, come on, there's there's going to be something as well. I'm really enjoying it. And he just kept pressing. I was like, well, you know, we have these team meetings late on Friday afternoons. They often run to like 5 or 6:00 Friday night and makes it a little bit hard for me to plan my weekend, because there are things that I wasn't doing Friday night.
00;04;56;08 - 00;05;05;06
Craig Andrews
Know. Oh, okay. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. And it was probably, I don't know, a year later, almost a year later,
00;05;05;09 - 00;05;14;08
Craig Andrews
a very senior person that that was highly respected and trust by our mutual boss came up to me and he said,
00;05;14;11 - 00;05;15;14
Craig Andrews
hey, I hear you don't like,
00;05;15;14 - 00;05;19;10
Craig Andrews
meeting on Friday nights. I'm like, yeah, where'd you hear that?
00;05;19;12 - 00;05;24;20
Craig Andrews
It's like, oh, I just had my performance review with Darryl, and I brought that up, and and,
00;05;24;20 - 00;05;44;04
Craig Andrews
Darryl said, are you in Craig? Andrew's. He said, I promise it's more than just the two of us. I couldn't believe it that a whole year had passed. Everybody had asked the same question, and there was only one other person that trusted that was safe enough for him to share that.
00;05;44;07 - 00;05;45;10
Kim Bohr
I think that is such,
00;05;45;10 - 00;06;05;11
Kim Bohr
it's a great example, right, of a first of all, it was good for the leader for at keeping the ask and probing and trying to, you know, have you really speak your truth? I think, you know, I have an experience from when I was early in my career, my late 20s, I was working for, you know, a very large logistics company that we would all know very well.
00;06;05;13 - 00;06;06;02
Kim Bohr
And,
00;06;06;04 - 00;06;24;06
Kim Bohr
I was in a sales and marketing type of function. And this leader I had, we were there. It was very just no other way to say it. He was an absolute bully. And his leader had come into town and they were doing performance reviews and and she had asked to talk to us as far as I think more just 360 type of interview feedback.
00;06;24;09 - 00;06;45;01
Kim Bohr
But I had a sense that something wasn't just didn't feel right. And so when she was asking me some specific questions and some situations, I said, look, I don't trust that this isn't going to get back to him. And she said, no, I guarantee you it won't. This is really important. I said, okay, so I told her, I answered the questions that were, you know, just he was not a good leader.
00;06;45;04 - 00;07;14;20
Kim Bohr
And never the less, a few days later, I get hauled into his office. He closes the door. He berates me for having shared what I did, so I immediately left that and I immediately contacted his boss and I said, this is unacceptable. This is not what you promised. And she was horrified. And I said, how you know, you set me up for exactly what I wasn't wanting to have happen.
00;07;14;20 - 00;07;27;27
Kim Bohr
And you, you totally lost all my trust. And it wasn't too long after that that I left the organization. It also he also got reassigned to a different part of the company.
00;07;28;00 - 00;07;41;01
Kim Bohr
And I think that really that really instilled in me a couple of things that, you know, you can't take trust for granted. We can all make mistakes, but it is about, you know, understanding how you're setting somebody up for something that feels so,
00;07;41;01 - 00;07;49;15
Kim Bohr
so, highly just exposed, but also that, you know, that was something I never wanted to have happen to other people.
00;07;49;15 - 00;08;10;05
Kim Bohr
And so I can't say I haven't made mistakes, but I certainly that is an early memory. I can as I sit here and tell you that story, I can remember exactly the settings of each of those conversations and the fact that it really it really did have me not want to invest further in a career there. And that was a big loss, you know, from a retention standpoint on their part.
00;08;10;05 - 00;08;12;13
Kim Bohr
And I know I wasn't the only one.
00;08;12;15 - 00;08;16;26
Craig Andrews
But I imagine when you recall that story, you probably still feel a lot of the feelings.
00;08;16;26 - 00;08;17;18
Kim Bohr
Yeah.
00;08;17;20 - 00;08;19;15
Craig Andrews
Some back then.
00;08;19;17 - 00;08;38;04
Kim Bohr
Absolutely. Because it was you know, it was already a, you know, a very unique culture of an organization. And to and they, they really didn't hire outsiders too much. You really had to come up through the ranks. But in the roles that I had held, they that was an area that they knew they did need that kind of talent from outside.
00;08;38;06 - 00;08;42;10
Kim Bohr
So it always felt a little bit like an outsider experience and,
00;08;42;15 - 00;09;00;10
Kim Bohr
and felt like thought he could bully me around, you know, in various ways that I just wasn't going to, you know, allow. But it does. Like, even as I talk to you about that, I can feel that that tightness again back in my chest around, you know, those experiences.
00;09;00;13 - 00;09;10;06
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And and the tough thing with that is it's really hard. It's not impossible to recover from that on a trust standpoint. But it's hard.
00;09;10;09 - 00;09;34;06
Kim Bohr
Yeah. Yeah. Well I can I can if you will indulge me, I can add on that story just a tiny bit. Somebody came in and replaced him. Much better human being. However, when the day came, as I mentioned, I left not too long afterwards we had to be walked out to the guard shack. It was just very. You had to stay within the lines, very, very formal.
00;09;34;08 - 00;09;44;28
Kim Bohr
And as I'm literally carrying my boxes stuff, I left on really good terms because I we it happened to coincide with some a move we were going to make. And so it just it just worked out where it was. It was on good terms.
00;09;45;01 - 00;09;51;22
Craig Andrews
The way you're describing it, I'm picturing you leaving the Supermax in Colorado. Yeah.
00;09;51;25 - 00;10;15;11
Kim Bohr
You may be accurate. I was in Colorado at the time, and so I'm carrying my box out. And the leader at that time, the different leader, said, can I give you some feedback? Literally, we're walking and I'm carrying my box. I'm like, now, sure. And she said, you can be really intense sometimes. And I said, okay. Do you have any examples?
00;10;15;11 - 00;10;42;06
Kim Bohr
Literally imagine box in hand walking and we get to the guard shack and she's like, no, but you should just reflect on that. And I was like, thanks. So needless to say, that's probably a whole nother episode of things We can go down, but that's another trust example of we had plenty of time together before I left that position for her to give me feedback or to coach me and tell me, well, what does that intensity look like?
00;10;42;09 - 00;10;54;27
Kim Bohr
And it's it took me down my own path of development of like, well, what does that look like? And is there is it good or bad? Right. Is there is there positive or negative inside that statement? But that was another statement that was just really,
00;10;55;00 - 00;11;03;19
Kim Bohr
quite in create, obviously it created quite a memory for me and it really informed a lot of the work I do today.
00;11;03;21 - 00;11;28;06
Craig Andrews
You. Yeah, it's. I mean, such a shame. I mean, the, the things that you're talking about, they I'm sure they spend a lot of money bringing you in. Yeah. And the you know, and even though you were, you brought some expertise that they needed, there's still some ramp up time getting, you know, for you to get to know the company and how they do things.
00;11;28;08 - 00;11;32;02
Craig Andrews
And it just seems like a whole lot of loss.
00;11;32;04 - 00;11;32;26
Kim Bohr
Yeah.
00;11;32;28 - 00;11;35;29
Craig Andrews
That could have been avoided completely.
00;11;36;01 - 00;11;36;27
Kim Bohr
You know, I think it's,
00;11;36;27 - 00;11;59;24
Kim Bohr
it's unfortunate when you see organizations that just don't invest in leaders to have the skills they need to have those kind of conversations, whether it's the first example and thinking about the emotional intelligence that that leader lacked and that his rule, you know, his way of leading was by bullying or whether it was the second leader who just didn't know how to give feedback.
00;11;59;24 - 00;12;07;08
Kim Bohr
That would have been really constructive for me as a as a professional growing, you know, in a way that instead it left me very,
00;12;07;11 - 00;12;18;26
Kim Bohr
like I said, I had to do my own soul searching. But I think a lot of organizations aren't investing in that level of frontline leader in the way they need to. And that even came out in the work we've done around trust.
00;12;18;26 - 00;12;23;26
Kim Bohr
And so I think it's a missed opportunity that I think organizations really need to take another look at.
00;12;23;28 - 00;12;35;20
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, and kind of the sad thing is I believe we're a forgiving people. And I don't think that's just limited to the United States.
00;12;35;23 - 00;12;51;15
Craig Andrews
You know, it just I think I think we're a forgiving people. I mean, I had a job once where my general manager would promise things to the to Siemens, the Germans, that he knew we could never deliver.
00;12;51;18 - 00;13;02;14
Craig Andrews
And my job was to go and tell the Germans, oh, that thing we promised. We're not going to deliver it. I got really good at delivering bad news to Germans. And,
00;13;02;16 - 00;13;09;27
Craig Andrews
but it always began with step one. Some version of we screwed up.
00;13;10;00 - 00;13;22;14
Craig Andrews
If you always start. It's amazing how forgiving people are. If the first thing out of your mouth is I made a mistake, I don't want to like that mistake was completely.
00;13;22;14 - 00;13;40;09
Kim Bohr
And that's, you know, and I think what's a challenge is that we aren't seeing as much of that, you know, as we should. And, and sometimes there's just these blind spots and we and, but, but when we have these opportunities for things to be brought to our attention, it's a it is that moment of, okay, I didn't realize I'm, you know, I'm sorry.
00;13;40;09 - 00;14;06;18
Kim Bohr
Let me understand. It's all those it's becoming inquisitive and I think that's that's missing. And I don't know if it's I think it's missing in part because there's development at that level of leader isn't happening as frequently with the right types of, of skill building. I think it's because we're moving so fast in business that we're we're just, you know, there's not enough time to stop and and understand impact in many aspects of business.
00;14;06;18 - 00;14;09;13
Kim Bohr
I think that's another reason.
00;14;09;16 - 00;14;27;10
Craig Andrews
Well, and kind of going back to Siemens, here's something I think that will help hammer home the point you're trying to make. I was sitting at my desk one day and we've gone a few rounds. We went sadly, way too many rounds of promising things. We couldn't deliver me go into the Germans. Hey, that thing, we promise. Yeah.
00;14;27;10 - 00;14;28;06
Craig Andrews
We're not doing it.
00;14;28;08 - 00;14;33;09
Kim Bohr
The trust credibility issue, too, if they feel like. Yeah, that keeps happening over and over again.
00;14;33;12 - 00;14;54;08
Craig Andrews
Well, one day my phone rings and I know it's a German country code. I'm like, Wonder what that is? I pick it up and with somebody from Siemens and his name was Reiner, I'm like, hey, Reiner, what's going on? And first words out of his mouth where she left me, and he starts telling me about his divorce, that just.
00;14;54;11 - 00;14;55;05
Kim Bohr
My goodness.
00;14;55;06 - 00;15;05;25
Craig Andrews
Traveling. I'm sitting there thinking of all the people in your life you call the guy who keeps showing up and saying, hey, that thing we promise we're not delivering.
00;15;05;28 - 00;15;40;08
Kim Bohr
Yeah, well, it's amazing how the, you know, we spend so much time of our work lives amongst work colleagues. And I think it's it's a great example of the relationship and the trust that gets built in that local dynamic in it is stronger than what we've seen from our research around at the organizational level of trust. And so I think that's a beautiful example of of someone who for some reason, felt you were a safer ear, you know, than maybe somebody closer to them that maybe they felt like would be more judgmental.
00;15;40;11 - 00;16;00;11
Kim Bohr
And I think that's where, you know, trust inside you all these teams, you don't it doesn't have to be leader by title. That is the trust person. It very well is somebody who's who who shows up like you were speaking of and is able to say, hey, you know, we screwed up and always try to come, you know, and own that.
00;16;00;13 - 00;16;06;11
Kim Bohr
That creates a trust that can be relied on and really unique ways.
00;16;06;14 - 00;16;26;19
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah I look at that and that's to this day that's one of my proudest moments. That guy of all the people in Germany, he calls me in the United States. Yeah, they've been causing him so much pain because his life was falling apart and yeah.
00;16;26;22 - 00;16;34;11
Kim Bohr
Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, but it's like I said, it's a beautiful example of of trust in relationship at such a,
00;16;34;11 - 00;16;45;29
Kim Bohr
when we're working with people on these day to day basis. Right. We have all these disruptions that are happening in our lives, and we have the opportunity and we're doing it with these people that are around us more than we are around our family.
00;16;45;29 - 00;16;49;12
Kim Bohr
Many times. And I think that we I think we can,
00;16;49;12 - 00;17;07;20
Kim Bohr
miss those opportunities of how do we, you know, build trust with these little disruptions. And I don't mean to negate how serious it is for what he dealt with, but that's a disruption amongst many things that was probably going on, and a really significant one that needed to be he needed to be feel, you know, feel seen and heard.
00;17;07;22 - 00;17;14;16
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Yeah. You know, another example that I think of,
00;17;14;18 - 00;17;18;05
Craig Andrews
going back to the financial crisis of oh eight,
00;17;18;08 - 00;17;23;22
Craig Andrews
I was living in Texas at the time, but the company that I work for in North Carolina,
00;17;23;25 - 00;17;31;01
Craig Andrews
the CEO, who I had always respected, I'd always thought this he was really smart. He brought a lot to the company.
00;17;31;03 - 00;17;48;28
Craig Andrews
He wasn't real kind to me when I left, but that's okay. Actually, did me a huge favor. He sent a really, really nasty letter to the CEO of the company that was coming to. And the CEO came to me is like, yeah, Barbara, that's really nasty letter. So I need some Baba Christmas card to thank him for,
00;17;48;28 - 00;17;52;00
Craig Andrews
confirming who you hired.
00;17;52;03 - 00;17;56;04
Craig Andrews
But I always had a lot of respect for Bob and,
00;17;56;07 - 00;18;19;05
Craig Andrews
and when the when the financial crisis hit, he came out and announced that all pay raises were on hold and all for one K matching was on hold. Okay, that's not weird. That was happening with a lot of companies. What was weird is he did that within two weeks of his 10-K filing that said he got 5% pay raise.
00;18;19;08 - 00;18;45;18
Craig Andrews
And I just remember thinking, Bob, you're smarter than that. You're smart that why didn't you or I get it, the compensation committee came up with that. Why didn't you strongly object and say, no, I refuse this. You've you're making my job harder. Yeah. Don't give me a 5% pay raise. Give me a 5% pay cut. Oh, by the way, serve up my stock.
00;18;45;21 - 00;18;46;11
Craig Andrews
Yeah, for
00;18;46;11 - 00;18;47;07
Craig Andrews
my stock cash.
00;18;47;12 - 00;19;13;20
Kim Bohr
Other ways. Right. I think that's a that's another really great example too, of just how the. Yeah. You know it's like you have to the the blind spots that people have or just these intentional like do they really think people are going to figure this out. And then you talk about that lack of transparency and open communication just totally is a huge destroyer of trust.
00;19;13;22 - 00;19;16;06
Craig Andrews
So how do we tackle this?
00;19;16;08 - 00;19;20;09
Kim Bohr
Yeah, I think, you know, there's I think there's a few ways. One is
00;19;20;12 - 00;19;29;02
Kim Bohr
I don't I don't think there's many people out there that would say trust is not, you know, a top priority for me and Seema organization. The reality though is that there are
00;19;29;09 - 00;19;36;04
Kim Bohr
on a daily basis, there are actions being taken that erode trust and not even at a not even talking about like at a big scale.
00;19;36;04 - 00;19;50;02
Kim Bohr
Right? These little micro moments that people mishandle. And so I think we need people to understand that trust is truly measurable. And you can do it. We've we've shown how you can do it. It really is,
00;19;50;05 - 00;20;02;24
Kim Bohr
something that if you understand what those we, you know, we call them interventions or those, those things that you're doing that you are actually thinking, you know, you're just connecting around how you know that are impacting trust.
00;20;02;24 - 00;20;38;29
Kim Bohr
Like you can fix that. These are not your super complicated actions. You know, things like open and honest communication, trying to have people understand, like, hey, where does my role fit with this change and how does it align to our strategy in treating people fairly? When you have to make tough decisions, you. One of the things that we experience in the this world of outplacement, a piece of business we do is that organizations often are trying to to do something for those people who are separating, but really because they want the people that are still remaining in the company to see that they're good people, that they that they were like, look, we did something
00;20;38;29 - 00;20;59;09
Kim Bohr
good. And the reality is that they don't always it's a little bit more of a lipstick on a pig kind of scenario. And I think that those are those trust breakers where people are watching and you are going to impact your retention and your reputation. So understanding what are the destroyers and what are those builders and what can we do to to take action?
00;20;59;16 - 00;21;20;20
Kim Bohr
And how can we do like what you were describing on a, on a real personal basis, like, how do I get to know my team and why is somebody suddenly showing up late? And do I understand what's going on with them? Or have I just kept like the corporate hat on? And that's, you know, in this day and age, especially with the younger generation coming into the workforce, how is it going to work at all?
00;21;20;22 - 00;21;30;02
Craig Andrews
Well, I ran into that recently. I stepped in, somebody was late for something and they've been late a couple times. And I,
00;21;30;04 - 00;21;36;06
Craig Andrews
one time I texted him like, hey, you still coming? And I regret that.
00;21;36;09 - 00;21;50;19
Craig Andrews
The next time I text him, I was like, hey, are you okay? And turns out he wasn't. There was something big going on in his family.
00;21;50;22 - 00;21;55;28
Craig Andrews
Guess what? Since I sent the text, are you okay? He's showing up on time.
00;21;56;00 - 00;22;17;11
Kim Bohr
Yeah, yeah. That moment to to just be understood. Like, you know, when you know what's going on, you don't feel like. Like you feel like you can you have that trusting relationship that you can say, hey, this is what is going on right now. And then it kind of gives you that permission, like, okay, I get it. Like all like, we're going to go through this together versus you have to just figure it out on your own.
00;22;17;13 - 00;22;18;07
Kim Bohr
And I think there's,
00;22;18;12 - 00;22;36;29
Kim Bohr
we need to be more, you know, working together as a community, as colleagues in all these different ways, because life is hard and business is hard. You know, there's a lot going on that is forces that are coming at you that are kind of pushing against the business in ways that it already is tough to just,
00;22;37;07 - 00;22;38;27
Kim Bohr
thrive in business right now.
00;22;38;27 - 00;22;44;00
Kim Bohr
And so trying to figure out how do we help, you know, just be humans to one another is,
00;22;44;03 - 00;22;46;11
Kim Bohr
a really needed opportunity.
00;22;46;13 - 00;22;48;23
Craig Andrews
Yeah.
00;22;48;26 - 00;22;49;08
Craig Andrews
The,
00;22;49;08 - 00;22;52;22
Craig Andrews
let's talk about when you screw up.
00;22;52;24 - 00;23;04;09
Craig Andrews
Do you have recommended processes or procedures? You know, I have my little formula for when we when we screwdriver the Germans. All right, here it is. It's a four step playbook. Here's what we're going to do.
00;23;04;12 - 00;23;05;10
Craig Andrews
It worked.
00;23;05;13 - 00;23;08;08
Craig Andrews
Do you have a playbook for when folks,
00;23;08;08 - 00;23;09;09
Craig Andrews
screw up?
00;23;09;11 - 00;23;18;01
Kim Bohr
Yeah, I think, you know, I think there's kind of two to approaches, right? One is if it's brought to my attention because I didn't realize it, then I think it is around
00;23;18;04 - 00;23;26;16
Kim Bohr
getting curious and, you know, admitting, like, I didn't realize that or whatever that situation is and then trying to understand what where the disconnect is and owning it.
00;23;26;20 - 00;23;44;07
Kim Bohr
Absolutely. I think if it's a oh, I just realized I just stepped in it. I think the quicker, you know, it's really important to just quickly come out and get ahead of it and say, you know, I just showed up in a way that is not wasn't okay. You know, and I did that the other day. In fact, I was I entered into call.
00;23;44;07 - 00;24;04;09
Kim Bohr
I had no reason to carry this energy with me. I've been working on some other things that I just for whatever reason, I just came into this call. I ended up cutting somebody off in the conversation I made assumptions about what we were talking about. I mean, it was just it was ridiculous. And all of a sudden I was like, I am so sorry, I don't I this is not this is okay.
00;24;04;15 - 00;24;18;25
Kim Bohr
I'm I'm so sorry. I can't even tell you why. I've come in with this energy. And I just want you to know, I really feel really bad. And so it reset everything for for the two people that were on the call. And before I got off, I said, you know, I'm. I'm really sorry. And then I,
00;24;18;27 - 00;24;22;03
Kim Bohr
I took a moment afterwards to be like, what is going on?
00;24;22;03 - 00;24;29;12
Kim Bohr
And I had my own moment of reflection. So I think, you know, it's about when you realize it yourself, immediately get into the, you know,
00;24;29;12 - 00;24;41;13
Kim Bohr
own it and, and clean up your mess and try to recognize, like, what's going on. And if it's brought to your attention, get really curious and understand, like, is this a misunderstanding? Or, you know, what did I do?
00;24;41;13 - 00;24;49;07
Kim Bohr
And then own that too and own the the commitment to repair that relationship?
00;24;49;09 - 00;24;57;17
Craig Andrews
I know one thing. I believe I'm curious in your thoughts on this. I believe that when the offense is public, the apology needs to be public.
00;24;57;20 - 00;25;13;13
Kim Bohr
Yeah, I completely agree with that. Yeah, I do, I absolutely do. I think it's really important to stand and say, you know, look, I didn't you know, I didn't show up as my best or, you know, or we made a major mistake. We own we need to own that on a larger scale.
00;25;13;13 - 00;25;15;13
Kim Bohr
We, you know, we made that calls, I think.
00;25;15;13 - 00;25;17;29
Kim Bohr
Absolutely. 100% agree.
00;25;18;01 - 00;25;25;16
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. You know, going back to a weight I can think of, the way another company handled something that I really admired. Do you know,
00;25;25;16 - 00;25;34;19
Craig Andrews
who AMD as they, Yeah. Yeah. So of course they got hit. Everybody got hit. And so they had to do pay cuts.
00;25;34;22 - 00;25;37;01
Craig Andrews
The executive team took a 20% pay cut.
00;25;37;02 - 00;26;03;02
Craig Andrews
Cut. The management team took a 15% pay cut, and the individual contributors took a 10% pay cut. And when they and when things got better and they restored it, they restored the individual contributors first, then the management team and finally the executive team. I just really, really admired that. I was like, naw. And it's rare that I admire big companies.
00;26;03;05 - 00;26;11;02
Craig Andrews
It's it's like, how did they figure that out? Because I just thought that was an amazing way to handle a tough situation.
00;26;11;04 - 00;26;13;13
Kim Bohr
Yeah, what a great model. And it sounds like,
00;26;13;16 - 00;26;25;22
Kim Bohr
you know, they they kept people, as many people as they could employed, you know, they may have had to make some tough decisions, but they were trying to minimize how much they had to do. And I think that speaks volumes around,
00;26;25;22 - 00;26;40;13
Kim Bohr
the at least the, the framing of that right of the where it landed with the values, the transparency, the communication, letting people know where the situation is and trying to make sure they understood, you know, what they were going to do to try to preserve.
00;26;40;20 - 00;26;46;05
Kim Bohr
I think those are really the key, you know, some of the key builders. But there's a lot of these little,
00;26;46;07 - 00;26;51;00
Kim Bohr
moments of how we show up and what we say or what we don't do, that,
00;26;51;00 - 00;27;07;26
Kim Bohr
have really huge, breaks and trust in ways that are hard to climb out of if were consistent, you know, consistently, unaware of the actions we're taking and how they're landing.
00;27;07;28 - 00;27;13;09
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. Well, and, you know, kind of going back to,
00;27;13;12 - 00;27;28;27
Craig Andrews
one of the things that hit me when you were talking about, if you make a mistake, earn it quickly, correct it quickly. You know, if you're building a team of really, really good people and I hope everybody is well, the recruiters know you have really, really good people.
00;27;28;29 - 00;27;29;26
Kim Bohr
Yep.
00;27;29;29 - 00;27;36;11
Craig Andrews
And you never know how long when they're calling in the midst of oh completely.
00;27;36;13 - 00;27;57;05
Kim Bohr
Yeah. Yeah I mean that's such a great point. Like you know we think about. Yeah I mean our people have choice you know and even in tough economies people are you know that's your top people are going to be likely getting calls. And so that idea of, you know, we were able to show direct connection to retention,
00;27;57;13 - 00;27;59;10
Kim Bohr
reputation and revenue metrics.
00;27;59;10 - 00;28;18;14
Kim Bohr
Right. So our whole argument around this research we did and why I'm so passionate about this trust topic, is that it's it should be thought about as a strategic metric like other KPIs, because it is it absolutely is like people will leave when they see other people aren't being treated fairly, or when they feel like they're not being treated fairly.
00;28;18;14 - 00;28;40;18
Kim Bohr
You know, when they think what the organization says is supposed to happen but sure doesn't show up in the actions they take. That's a big you know, you can't pay people enough for long enough that eventually they're going to just leave because they want more, especially the younger generation entering the marketplace. They have a very different set of criteria that they look at than, some of the older generations.
00;28;40;21 - 00;28;42;24
Craig Andrews
Well, and it's the reason I'm living in Texas.
00;28;42;24 - 00;28;51;11
Craig Andrews
You know, there's there is the company that moved me to Texas had been recruiting me for two years, and I just kept telling them, no, no, no, no. And there was a breach of trust.
00;28;51;14 - 00;28;54;26
Craig Andrews
There was a breach of trust. Not now on my part, but I had,
00;28;54;26 - 00;29;04;13
Craig Andrews
an engineer walk in my my office, in my office, and talked about how somebody stole a patent, not his pen.
00;29;04;16 - 00;29;25;24
Craig Andrews
It was a pattern of a buddy of mine. There was a designer that was a buddy of mine, and his boss stole his patent. Yeah, I went, you know, I went to the boss and said, hey, I had somebody complain about this. What can you tell me what's going on? He just dismissed me. I went to his boss.
00;29;25;27 - 00;29;31;27
Craig Andrews
He dismissed me. I went to the VP, he dismissed me.
00;29;32;00 - 00;29;34;25
Craig Andrews
Then guess who called that company?
00;29;35;00 - 00;29;57;11
Kim Bohr
Yep. And they're in. You're very much open to a conversation by then, right? They gets it. It makes sense. And and had they've had the first person the first time said, hey, let's let me hear you and let's understand what's going on. And then I found, you know, taken action against, you know, what was clearly a violation of the ethics like that would have made a difference.
00;29;57;11 - 00;30;11;16
Kim Bohr
And yet it it didn't. Your story reminded me of when I was before the before the logistics company. I was in Telecom. Big telecom, the company, you know, through all the consolidation, it doesn't exist anymore. But it was a highly reputable company back then.
00;30;11;16 - 00;30;25;03
Kim Bohr
It was MCI. And as you know, you know this story, some of your listeners may know the reality of it got purchased by Worldcom and it felt very, you know, just didn't seem like that was possible, that Worldcom was a much smaller organization.
00;30;25;03 - 00;30;29;27
Kim Bohr
And so I ended up under a leader who had come from the Worldcom side who,
00;30;30;00 - 00;30;53;20
Kim Bohr
let's just say I had to work very, very hard to keep my book of business very clean. And I just got to a point where after I reported it, nothing was happening, and I said, I'm out like I have. No, this is just not I'm not aligned with this type of of leadership and working and people who feel like that, you know, that level of ethics just doesn't matter.
00;30;53;20 - 00;30;54;04
Kim Bohr
So,
00;30;54;07 - 00;31;13;08
Kim Bohr
that when you said that, that really reminded me. And what I did is I had somebody who said, hey, when you're ready, we want to have you over here. Now. That ended up not being a great experience, but it was exact same thing you talked about like that trust was broken and I went I had built trust with the person who was recruiting me, and I was able to make the phone call and said, I'm out.
00;31;13;08 - 00;31;33;21
Kim Bohr
And they were like, come on over. And so that's I think we, you know, as business owners and leaders and organizations, we need to realize that is that's that's happening all the time. If we're not really trying to be trusting to our in and understanding what's going on with people and taking action and not letting a bunch of stuff, people get away with stuff that they shouldn't be.
00;31;33;23 - 00;31;45;29
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. Well, Kim, this has been absolutely amazing. I love what you're doing. I believe that everybody needs it. And and it's not because. It's not because people are bad people. We all have blind spots.
00;31;46;01 - 00;31;47;25
Kim Bohr
Totally.
00;31;47;27 - 00;31;54;12
Craig Andrews
And so I hope people will reach out to you and,
00;31;54;14 - 00;31;58;00
Craig Andrews
because I think what you're doing is valuable. How can folks reach you?
00;31;58;02 - 00;32;10;29
Kim Bohr
Yeah. You know, we are going to have a a page for your listener. So if they go to spark effect.com/legacies, they will be able to download the trust report I mentioned. There's also
00;32;10;29 - 00;32;15;18
Kim Bohr
a couple of guides that they can get that actually takes the data and allows them as leaders to say, well, what do I do with this?
00;32;15;18 - 00;32;19;05
Kim Bohr
What can I do with this? With my team to build trust. And so it'll give
00;32;19;05 - 00;32;31;16
Kim Bohr
it's something that I think would be really helpful. We're really, you know, wanting to see more leaders think about trust in the way we're talking about. And then, of course, I'm on LinkedIn as well and loved to have people reach out to me and Kim Kimber, their bio.
00;32;31;18 - 00;32;37;04
Kim Bohr
And then the last places, you know, I also have a podcast, Courage to Advance. And if people want to listen to,
00;32;37;04 - 00;32;45;10
Kim Bohr
you know, leadership stories and where we really see this trust and disruption intersecting, I'd love for them to come and check that out as well.
00;32;45;12 - 00;32;48;28
Craig Andrews
I think they should. Kim, thanks for coming on. Leaders and legacies.
00;32;49;01 - 00;32;55;23
Kim Bohr
Thank you so much for having me.
00;32;55;25 - 00;33;17;17
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Ally's for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this
00;33;17;17 - 00;33;19;12
Craig Andrews
episode on social media.
00;33;19;14 - 00;33;42;24
Craig Andrews
Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or posted on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest. Tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.
00;33;42;26 - 00;33;51;01
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up. Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.
00;33;51;01 - 00;34;01;12
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Ally's for me.com. Or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
