Episode #274: From Kyiv to the Boardroom: Bob Nienaber on Retaining Top Talent

Bob Nienaber has spent more than three decades helping companies design executive benefit plans that retain top talent and strengthen long-term business value. Today, as CEO of BenefitRFP and a partner at Simplicity Group, he advises boards and leadership teams on retention, succession, and the financial structures that keep key people committed.

In this episode, Bob shares what going behind enemy lines in Ukraine taught him about leadership under pressure, trust, and decision-making when the stakes are high. He explains why executive benefits are often misunderstood, breaks down how well-designed plans can improve retention without simply throwing money at people, and shows how tax strategy, culture, and long-term incentives work together to keep great employees in their seats. Bob also warns against bad advice in succession and deferred-compensation planning and makes the case for acting before top performers start looking elsewhere.

Want to learn more about Bob Nienaber's work? Check out his website at https://benefitrfp.com/.

Connect with Bob Nienaber on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobnienaberbrfp/.

Key Points & Timestamps

00:00:51 - Bob Nienaber introduced: founder of BenefitRFP, partner at Simplicity Group, and longtime advisor on executive benefit plans.
00:01:52 - Bob recounts traveling into Kyiv during the war and why business conversations change when leaders are operating under direct threat.
00:04:28 - He explains how war-zone business support includes audits, relocation questions, and helping leaders protect businesses under attack.
00:05:45 - Bob describes the security realities of operating in conflict zones, including rerouting a driver when the trip went off course.
00:08:05 - He shifts to his core work: helping companies retain top talent through executive benefits, board-level strategy, and long-term incentives.
00:08:58 - Bob argues executive benefits are not just extra compensation. Done right, they create retention, improve culture, and can function as a profit center.
00:13:27 - He lays out the financial side of retention, including pretax deferral, tax-law strategy, and why poorly structured compensation leaves value on the table.
00:22:15 - On succession, Bob warns that inaction is its own plan and says owners need experienced advisors, not generic brokers making high-stakes mistakes.
00:25:36 - He tells the story of three executives resigning on the spot after an owner refused to address retention planning, showing the cost of waiting too long.
00:27:23 - How to reach Bob: benefitrfp.com or LinkedIn at Bob Nienaber / BenefitRFP.

Transcript

[00:00:05 - 00:00:30]
Craig Andrews

I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment in my career.

[00:00:30 - 00:00:51]
Craig Andrews

My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on this show.

[00:00:51 - 00:01:22]
Craig Andrews

Today I went. Welcome, Bob Nienaber? Now take a couple times to pronounce correctly. It's Bob Nienaber ? He is the founder of BenefitRFP and a partner at Simplicity Group. He helps companies design and implement executive benefit plans. Bob is the author of seven books. Too many to list here quickly. But what's even more interesting about Bob is he has actually gone behind enemy lines in war zones to help companies that he's working with.

[00:01:22 - 00:01:28]
Craig Andrews

This should be a interesting conversation for sure. Bob, welcome.

[00:01:28 - 00:01:30]
Bob Nienaber

Thank you Greg. Appreciate it.

[00:01:30 - 00:01:32]
Craig Andrews

All right. We got to start with the,

[00:01:32 - 00:01:50]
Craig Andrews

I we've had all sorts of folks on the Letters and Legacy podcast. I literally had nobody who has gone behind enemy lines to help their business has gone into a war zone to help their business. And you said something about Kiev.

[00:01:50 - 00:01:51]
Craig Andrews

Even the heck.

[00:01:51 - 00:01:52]
Bob Nienaber

Yeah. Kiev is,

[00:01:52 - 00:01:54]
Bob Nienaber

Kiev is the most recent place I went to,

[00:01:54 - 00:01:55]
Bob Nienaber

kind of early on in the war.

[00:01:56 - 00:02:00]
Bob Nienaber

We flew into Genoa because the airspace was down, so we took a van ride from,

[00:02:00 - 00:02:03]
Bob Nienaber

chin one Moldova all the way up to Kiev.

[00:02:03 - 00:02:04]
Bob Nienaber

With all.

[00:02:04 - 00:02:05]
Craig Andrews

How long was that?

[00:02:05 - 00:02:06]
Bob Nienaber

About ten, 11 hours.

[00:02:06 - 00:02:06]
Bob Nienaber

We,

[00:02:06 - 00:02:17]
Bob Nienaber

we didn't make it past the curfew lines. And if you've been to a country that's in a war time, and they have curfew, if you're out after curfew, they pretty much are going to be in a lot of trouble, get shot, that type of thing. And we didn't make curfew, so we,

[00:02:17 - 00:02:21]
Bob Nienaber

actually stayed in a bombed out, hotel.

[00:02:21 - 00:02:27]
Bob Nienaber

Where we kept getting awakened during the night by a bunch of pack dogs that are coming around trying to, you know, look for a snack from you.

[00:02:28 - 00:02:29]
Bob Nienaber

But then we we got into,

[00:02:29 - 00:02:31]
Bob Nienaber

the city the next morning.

[00:02:31 - 00:02:39]
Bob Nienaber

Met with the oligarchs, spent about a week out there. It was. It was interesting because every time Russia, would send over bombs, they would actually,

[00:02:39 - 00:02:41]
Bob Nienaber

you know, broadcast that to all the citizens.

[00:02:41 - 00:02:42]
Bob Nienaber

And so all of a sudden, the,

[00:02:42 - 00:02:51]
Bob Nienaber

the map of of you can't Ukraine would get lit up and and it's all red zone. And, you go in the basement and, you know, hopefully the bombs don't get you, but,

[00:02:51 - 00:02:59]
Bob Nienaber

it's always interesting because, you know, whenever you're in those periods dealing with, with the leaders of the countries that are under attack,

[00:02:59 - 00:03:02]
Bob Nienaber

in the businesses that are, that are getting destroyed along the,

[00:03:02 - 00:03:03]
Bob Nienaber

war zone lines,

[00:03:03 - 00:03:06]
Bob Nienaber

very different conversations than business in general.

[00:03:06 - 00:03:20]
Bob Nienaber

And so you see a lot of emotional stuff. Of course, the oligarchs are they're wealthy businesspeople out there, and they're concerned when those folks are concerned, you know, it's affecting everybody at that level. So it's just very interesting times. Wow.

[00:03:20 - 00:03:22]
Craig Andrews

What?

[00:03:23 - 00:03:34]
Craig Andrews

What's some examples of, you know, so what do you think they would have talked about if they weren't in a war zone versus what did they you know, what were they actually talking about when you were meeting with them?

[00:03:34 - 00:03:36]
Bob Nienaber

Well, if you if you think about an old guard, they're,

[00:03:36 - 00:03:39]
Bob Nienaber

they're handling large businesses. And,

[00:03:39 - 00:03:40]
Bob Nienaber

some of the borders,

[00:03:40 - 00:03:46]
Bob Nienaber

between the countries that were under attack. These folks are having their factories bombed out. They're having their there are people

[00:03:46 - 00:03:48]
Bob Nienaber

that are out there being killed.

[00:03:48 - 00:03:53]
Bob Nienaber

During during that point in time, no male figures were allowed to leave the country.

[00:03:53 - 00:04:02]
Bob Nienaber

And, you know, so and they do that because they're trying to keep as many of the male citizens around for fighting as they can. And so these people are,

[00:04:02 - 00:04:05]
Bob Nienaber

trying to, you know, save their businesses for one,

[00:04:05 - 00:04:12]
Bob Nienaber

they're trying to figure out if the land where their businesses are occupied is going to be a new country that's taken over.

[00:04:12 - 00:04:16]
Bob Nienaber

They're trying to figure out who to talk to. That's going to help transplant them.

[00:04:16 - 00:04:24]
Bob Nienaber

You know, when when the U.S. gives billions of dollars to these, countries to help out, it's going to some of these things. It's gone to

[00:04:24 - 00:04:27]
Bob Nienaber

military ventures. It's gone to business ventures. And,

[00:04:27 - 00:04:28]
Bob Nienaber

you know, they don't just send money.

[00:04:28 - 00:04:41]
Bob Nienaber

They send people out there to really audit what's going on. And, and I had a chance to meet with the leaders of, of, Ukraine and met with the gentleman that his sole responsibility was keeping the men intact in the country.

[00:04:41 - 00:04:47]
Bob Nienaber

He was the one who actually let me out because as you can imagine, when we got to the borders, going back, you know, I'm a male.

[00:04:47 - 00:04:50]
Bob Nienaber

They don't know where I'm from, and I'm leaving the country, and,

[00:04:50 - 00:04:57]
Bob Nienaber

you know, you go out under armed guard and they ask a million questions before you just go. So he had to make sure that my,

[00:04:57 - 00:04:59]
Bob Nienaber

exit was was all set up and ready to go.

[00:04:59 - 00:05:03]
Bob Nienaber

The other thing that you get into, though, is, is that part of the world is very,

[00:05:03 - 00:05:05]
Bob Nienaber

high with kidnapings and,

[00:05:05 - 00:05:11]
Bob Nienaber

as a, an American successful businessman coming into the borders of a war and, and,

[00:05:11 - 00:05:14]
Bob Nienaber

you know, your possibility of having a Russian driver,

[00:05:14 - 00:05:16]
Bob Nienaber

is very high all of a sudden,

[00:05:16 - 00:05:18]
Bob Nienaber

the van might go the wrong route, and that's that's what

[00:05:18 - 00:05:32]
Bob Nienaber

happened on the way. So we had to reroute the driver in a in a very different way to make sure that, we got under the right direction, that we're supposed to be gone. So things, things happen, things change. Plans change as you go into those situations.

[00:05:32 - 00:05:45]
Craig Andrews

Very well. How do you how do you reroute the driver? I mean, if he's kidnaping you, I'm guessing he's he's intentional in getting wherever he's going. I'm guessing a hey, please will you can we take this route instead? Probably doesn't work.

[00:05:45 - 00:05:48]
Bob Nienaber

Yeah. Now when you go in those situations, you follow,

[00:05:48 - 00:05:51]
Bob Nienaber

satellite guidance. And, you know, when you're off course,

[00:05:51 - 00:05:53]
Bob Nienaber

we are off course. And so we had a,

[00:05:53 - 00:05:58]
Bob Nienaber

less than pleasant conversation, and the drivers get replaced.

[00:05:58 - 00:06:03]
Bob Nienaber

And so, and it and it's not always, you know, really an easy conversation.

[00:06:03 - 00:06:04]
Bob Nienaber

I won't go into a lot of details.

[00:06:04 - 00:06:06]
Bob Nienaber

That happens. It gets pretty ugly.

[00:06:06 - 00:06:10]
Bob Nienaber

But those are the things that happen, you know, you're in you're in a country where war is going on, and,

[00:06:10 - 00:06:16]
Bob Nienaber

an American business person going into that country, you know, you you have a per capita income before the war of Ukraine.

[00:06:16 - 00:06:23]
Bob Nienaber

About $5,500 a year. You know, a $10,000 kidnaping is a pretty good bounty.

[00:06:23 - 00:06:24]
Bob Nienaber

It's a couple of years of payment. So,

[00:06:24 - 00:06:27]
Bob Nienaber

you got you just got to be careful. You got to keep your senses around you.

[00:06:27 - 00:06:30]
Bob Nienaber

Whenever I'm out in those countries, I tend to,

[00:06:30 - 00:06:31]
Bob Nienaber

on on,

[00:06:31 - 00:06:33]
Bob Nienaber

the last couple days, I tend to ditch my,

[00:06:34 - 00:06:37]
Bob Nienaber

you know, the folks that are there to guard me or look over me.

[00:06:37 - 00:06:41]
Bob Nienaber

And the reason I do that is when you get out in certain areas without,

[00:06:41 - 00:06:42]
Bob Nienaber

any type of of,

[00:06:42 - 00:06:56]
Bob Nienaber

security, you hear the real conversations that take place. If you're after curfew, you got to be careful. But it's actually pretty easy to walk around after curfews because it's quiet. There's the only people that are meandering around are going to be soldiers or military,

[00:06:56 - 00:06:57]
Bob Nienaber

vehicles.

[00:06:57 - 00:06:58]
Bob Nienaber

And,

[00:06:58 - 00:06:59]
Bob Nienaber

when you're under curfew, like in,

[00:06:59 - 00:07:01]
Bob Nienaber

Kiev, in those times,

[00:07:01 - 00:07:14]
Bob Nienaber

everything's dark and at night there might be some lights around, some small doorways, that type of thing. But you have a lot of freedom to kind of walk around the city and and see the different things. And you do have to pay attention so you don't get caught and get in trouble.

[00:07:14 - 00:07:16]
Bob Nienaber

You go under there in almost a very,

[00:07:16 - 00:07:25]
Bob Nienaber

suspicious point of view. You're not necessarily sure that the people you're talking to are going to represent the people you're trying to represent,

[00:07:25 - 00:07:33]
Bob Nienaber

in a fair way. You know, they might be on the other guy's side, too. And so you see a lot of that going on because there are a lot of people in that example in Kiev that are,

[00:07:33 - 00:07:35]
Bob Nienaber

are from Russian backgrounds.

[00:07:35 - 00:07:35]
Bob Nienaber

And,

[00:07:35 - 00:07:43]
Bob Nienaber

and they're still, you know, in charge of certain governmental things. And so there's just a lot of things that go on. You just got to kind of keep your head about yourself,

[00:07:43 - 00:07:46]
Bob Nienaber

and then enjoy the opportunity. And what I do is,

[00:07:46 - 00:07:52]
Bob Nienaber

when I come back to those types of things, I read about them in books, tied into business, tied into adventure,

[00:07:52 - 00:07:54]
Bob Nienaber

and and give people a good view of it.

[00:07:54 - 00:08:01]
Craig Andrews

Well that's cool. Well, so let's talk a little bit about so what do you do when you're not going into war zones is you help folks with the,

[00:08:01 - 00:08:05]
Craig Andrews

with executive retention or top talent retention?

[00:08:05 - 00:08:06]
Bob Nienaber

Yeah, I've been doing that for,

[00:08:06 - 00:08:07]
Bob Nienaber

over three decades now. The,

[00:08:07 - 00:08:09]
Bob Nienaber

it's been a passion of mine. My,

[00:08:09 - 00:08:11]
Bob Nienaber

my father was a senior exact with AT&T.

[00:08:11 - 00:08:19]
Bob Nienaber

And he used to always have, events at the house when I was a kid. I, you know, I play guitar. And so his friends would come over to that work and they'd want to play a guitar.

[00:08:19 - 00:08:23]
Bob Nienaber

And so, you know, I just have always been very comfortable with that. And so,

[00:08:23 - 00:08:26]
Bob Nienaber

when I got into business after college,

[00:08:26 - 00:08:28]
Bob Nienaber

I wanted to get into the corporate marketplace.

[00:08:28 - 00:08:37]
Bob Nienaber

It's one of the most comfortable with. I love dealing with board meetings and and advising boards and, and, you know, I've advised boards of companies of public and private, large companies,

[00:08:37 - 00:08:39]
Bob Nienaber

you know, several thousands over the years.

[00:08:39 - 00:08:49]
Bob Nienaber

And I still do sit on several boards. And for me, it's, it's, you know, again, you're talking to people, what they want to what they want to try and get to,

[00:08:49 - 00:08:56]
Bob Nienaber

you know, you have a, you have a team around you, a great culture. And when you're thinking about executive benefits, a lot of people I think about I think,

[00:08:56 - 00:08:58]
Bob Nienaber

think of them kind of incorrectly.

[00:08:58 - 00:09:10]
Bob Nienaber

They think about how to put more money in executives pockets, and that's really not what's going on. What you're trying to do is build a retentive channel to keep those people happy, locked into the company. And,

[00:09:10 - 00:09:18]
Bob Nienaber

you know, if a plan is put together properly, it actually serves as a profit center for a company. And it also brings down the PNL related,

[00:09:18 - 00:09:23]
Bob Nienaber

to expenses that you pay executives, because there's a lot of tax benefits and roles that help companies out tremendously.

[00:09:23 - 00:09:30]
Bob Nienaber

And, you know, large companies know this, public companies. I think the last time I checked, 93% of them use these plans,

[00:09:30 - 00:09:45]
Bob Nienaber

and smaller companies, a lot of times they don't get too engaged in them at first because they're scared. It's a big thing. Is it going to cost money? Do I have to go to the board or to the owner and say, gosh, I found another perk for the for the executives and it's going to cost you a bunch of money.

[00:09:45 - 00:09:46]
Bob Nienaber

So there's a lot of,

[00:09:46 - 00:09:55]
Bob Nienaber

unnecessary fears and trepidation that comes from just not having experience in that. And that's where I spend most of my time. I love to mentor people.

[00:09:55 - 00:10:06]
Bob Nienaber

There's no charge on on the mentorship programs that we put, people through. We have a boardroom ready program where we put people through so they just know and learn about how these things are are,

[00:10:07 - 00:10:11]
Bob Nienaber

operate and how they operate within a company to, to really,

[00:10:11 - 00:10:12]
Bob Nienaber

help with the culture you have.

[00:10:12 - 00:10:19]
Bob Nienaber

If I have, if I want a best baseball team in the world, I want the Yankees. You know, I want the best players out there, and I've got to do something different,

[00:10:19 - 00:10:27]
Bob Nienaber

to line that up and keep them happy and in their seats. And that's what you're talking about with company culture. Same thing. I just want to keep the best people.

[00:10:27 - 00:10:28]
Craig Andrews

You know, I remember,

[00:10:28 - 00:10:52]
Craig Andrews

years ago, I was about 80% out the door, 70 to 80% out the door at company I was working for my general manager, you know, knew that. I mean, I had some frank conversations with them. I remember one day in particular, he he personally brought me a cup of coffee. He went to Starbucks black coffee and broke up to me directly.

[00:10:52 - 00:11:17]
Craig Andrews

And, and I just remember thinking at the moment, I was like, that's what feeling powerless must look like, you know, here he is. He's he's the general manager. He's my boss. You know, he believed that he you know, nothing by is here replaceable. I certainly was, but he felt like his his performance was tied to his ability to retain me.

[00:11:17 - 00:11:23]
Craig Andrews

And he was stuck. And the best thing he could think of that day was to bring me a cup of coffee.

[00:11:23 - 00:11:26]
Bob Nienaber

Yeah, it might have been just a nice gesture.

[00:11:26 - 00:11:50]
Craig Andrews

It was, but it was that that. I think that's the only time I worked for him for four years. And that was the only time he had ever brought me a cup of coffee. And the the overall contacts was it was clear he he knew I was at risk and he was just trying to figure out, you know, in terms of what he felt like he could do to retain me versus, you know, you know, what would retain me.

[00:11:50 - 00:11:59]
Craig Andrews

And that's just kind of how I ended up working. It was fine. We I left and then he ended up getting fired about two weeks after I left you know, and,

[00:11:59 - 00:12:05]
Craig Andrews

and I worked with him, you know, he left to become CEO of a few companies, and I worked with them at,

[00:12:05 - 00:12:08]
Craig Andrews

2 or 3 of those companies.

[00:12:08 - 00:12:09]
Craig Andrews

And,

[00:12:09 - 00:12:31]
Craig Andrews

you know, so we started a relationship. I wasn't out to burn any bridges and what have you, but I the reason I bring that up is it the fear. You know, I guess there's two ways of looking at it. One is, you know, when people poach your employees or leave, you can celebrate that you've built a team.

[00:12:31 - 00:12:34]
Craig Andrews

That's that's where they are being poached.

[00:12:34 - 00:12:40]
Craig Andrews

Which kind of guides what I want to do? I always want to have people that everybody else wants to hire away.

[00:12:40 - 00:12:53]
Craig Andrews

But it also creates a sense of powerlessness of, you know, how do I hang on to this person? They are important. They are important for my success. They're important for the team.

[00:12:53 - 00:12:59]
Craig Andrews

How do I how do I hang on to them? And I think that's a tough question that a business owner wrestles with.

[00:12:59 - 00:13:01]
Bob Nienaber

Well, you've got two aspects. You've got the,

[00:13:01 - 00:13:02]
Bob Nienaber

the personal,

[00:13:02 - 00:13:12]
Bob Nienaber

relationship stuff that that you get from meeting with the employees individually and you get to know them, you find out what their perks are. You know, what, if they're adventurous people or,

[00:13:12 - 00:13:18]
Bob Nienaber

you know, maybe they're they're spiritual. They do a lot with church. Whatever it is they have a they have a passion away from work.

[00:13:19 - 00:13:27]
Bob Nienaber

And, you know, it might just be the family, whatever. And then you have the financial side. And so we try and actually work with both sides when we're,

[00:13:27 - 00:13:30]
Bob Nienaber

working with folks, one with the company side.

[00:13:30 - 00:13:39]
Bob Nienaber

If you look at the pure financials of pay, if, if you're if you're a CEO and you're making a million bucks a year and I send you that check,

[00:13:39 - 00:13:42]
Bob Nienaber

you're going to receive about 60% of it after taxes.

[00:13:43 - 00:13:51]
Bob Nienaber

And so I have just lost $400,000 of opportunity that if I set up a plan where I could allow you to set those dollars,

[00:13:51 - 00:14:04]
Bob Nienaber

aside so that you can maximize and keep those dollars pretax and keep them pure, not taxed until you take a distribution out. Now you're working with a big chunk of money, so it really feels like you earned $1 million.

[00:14:04 - 00:14:04]
Bob Nienaber

And,

[00:14:04 - 00:14:21]
Bob Nienaber

and then what happens is a lot of people, well, well, then make the false assumption. Know that. Well, when I got to take my $400,000 out that I set aside in an account, I'm still going to get tax. I'm going to lose all the money anyways, just like it was. I'm just delaying the inevitable. And that's not true.

[00:14:21 - 00:14:24]
Bob Nienaber

There's tax laws out there that absolutely,

[00:14:24 - 00:14:43]
Bob Nienaber

enable people to go from state to state for example, I'm in California where in the worst state taxes and I can go over to Nevada and retire and not pay any state taxes on these distributions used in the source tax rule. If I have qualified plans, there's a Department of Labor regulate that allows me to get those dollars out free of taxes as long as I set it up properly.

[00:14:43 - 00:14:48]
Bob Nienaber

And people don't realize that. And so they end up really missing tremendous opportunities with us.

[00:14:48 - 00:15:00]
Bob Nienaber

The other things I can get into, if I'm a high net worth individual away from a plan, I can use any type of bank funding program and not pay any taxes on the growth of those dollars or the distribution. So there's a lot of options out there.

[00:15:00 - 00:15:01]
Bob Nienaber

People just have to,

[00:15:01 - 00:15:08]
Bob Nienaber

you know, meet with somebody that understands us so they can help them out. And when you're when you're talking though about,

[00:15:08 - 00:15:24]
Bob Nienaber

you know, financial situations and building stickiness with a company on the financial side, if I open up that avenue for all my senior executives and the profits that I get from that plan don't only serve the senior executives, but their role into the to the,

[00:15:24 - 00:15:26]
Bob Nienaber

average paid folks in that company.

[00:15:26 - 00:15:30]
Bob Nienaber

And I'm helping everybody. People don't want to leave. People won't pick up those phones,

[00:15:31 - 00:15:40]
Bob Nienaber

calls when they're getting people that are saying, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this because we roll those profits generally right back into a plan. So the company actually is paying a tremendous perks,

[00:15:40 - 00:15:41]
Bob Nienaber

for all their employees.

[00:15:41 - 00:15:52]
Bob Nienaber

And it's not coming out of their pockets as coming out of the tax havens and the design savings on how these plans work. That's where the largest companies use them. They don't use them simply to throw money at people. They use them

[00:15:52 - 00:16:03]
Bob Nienaber

in a very systematic, very smart way to make sure that they bring down the cost of these benefit plans, bring down the total payroll costs for all the employees that are involved,

[00:16:03 - 00:16:06]
Bob Nienaber

and put those employees in a much better financial situation.

[00:16:06 - 00:16:26]
Bob Nienaber

And when we when we have people go through our process, we have a total reward system where we'll show them, here's what you're doing right now with doing nothing. Here's what's going to happen if you set up a plan to start saving some money, whether you know it's a qualified plan, getting your $30,000 saved or a non-qualified plan where you can save up to 100% of your income.

[00:16:26 - 00:16:36]
Bob Nienaber

Pretax. Here's what you're going to do for yourself. And then we show them how to take the taxable adjustments and the benefits that are out there to get these dollars out to themselves and their families,

[00:16:36 - 00:16:38]
Bob Nienaber

you know, as free as they can. And,

[00:16:38 - 00:16:45]
Bob Nienaber

and it's a huge differential on these people. Then when we're, we're also talking to them to Craig is is very important.

[00:16:45 - 00:16:50]
Bob Nienaber

Everybody's everybody's different. You and I are in different states having a phone conversation.

[00:16:50 - 00:16:55]
Bob Nienaber

And everybody has different goals, aspirations, whatever it may be. And,

[00:16:55 - 00:17:03]
Bob Nienaber

you know, so we relate those dollars to the advanced that those people are going to be involved in. You know, for me, I love giving to charity.

[00:17:03 - 00:17:05]
Bob Nienaber

For me, I love outdoors activities.

[00:17:05 - 00:17:19]
Bob Nienaber

So anything scary for me is let's go. You know, I don't care. And and I've always been that way. I've always enjoyed that. I used to race motorcycles and, you know, did all the crazy stuff and still do. And I'm 60 years old, so, you know, it never changes.

[00:17:19 - 00:17:34]
Bob Nienaber

But if you take and put those dollars, if I put $1 million, $2 million in somebody's pocket that they wouldn't have had, and now they can give it to their church or their favorite beneficiaries, or maybe take care of a, a child,

[00:17:34 - 00:17:36]
Bob Nienaber

that has challenges at home.

[00:17:36 - 00:17:42]
Bob Nienaber

You know, whatever the situation is, you're changing these people's lives and then you're helping them visualize it.

[00:17:42 - 00:17:57]
Bob Nienaber

For me, I'm a big believer in helping people with manifestation. I don't just write down goals. I write down goals. I same daily. I look at them daily and and I expect them. And I've always done that. And that's, you know, for both financial, personal,

[00:17:57 - 00:17:59]
Bob Nienaber

spiritual everything.

[00:17:59 - 00:18:02]
Bob Nienaber

That's how I've gotten through tough times in tough countries that may be at war.

[00:18:02 - 00:18:09]
Bob Nienaber

You know, on tough adventures that most people would say, you're insane. My wife won't go near any of the adventures I get into.

[00:18:09 - 00:18:16]
Bob Nienaber

But she likes to hear about them after I'm, you know, done with them and live through it. But for me, that's that's what my soul is based on.

[00:18:16 - 00:18:16]
Bob Nienaber

So,

[00:18:16 - 00:18:28]
Bob Nienaber

you know, I believe in just really tying everything together in life and living every day with your fullest, getting the financial stuff in order so that you can afford to do everything that you want to do and take care of the people you want to take care of.

[00:18:28 - 00:18:47]
Craig Andrews

So let me approach this from a, you know, kind of a, you know, a more simplistic, probably under informed approach. You know, I think a lot of people, when they, they're thinking about, let's say, and let's talk strictly about privately held businesses, they're thinking, oh, I need to put together an Esop. It's like an Esop or nothing.

[00:18:47 - 00:18:49]
Craig Andrews

And then Esop scares them.

[00:18:49 - 00:18:52]
Craig Andrews

I know I have a lot of questions about Esop,

[00:18:52 - 00:18:54]
Craig Andrews

as an Esop, the only,

[00:18:54 - 00:18:57]
Craig Andrews

the only option or are there other ways?

[00:18:57 - 00:18:58]
Bob Nienaber

No, not at all.

[00:18:58 - 00:19:01]
Bob Nienaber

You know, Esops are good. We work with Esops all the time.

[00:19:01 - 00:19:02]
Bob Nienaber

We go in and we,

[00:19:03 - 00:19:08]
Bob Nienaber

interject, interject a, non-qualified plan for the the main folks running the Esop.

[00:19:09 - 00:19:10]
Bob Nienaber

But then esops like a for one case, like,

[00:19:10 - 00:19:17]
Bob Nienaber

putting your company in a, in a qualified plan wrapper, and it's, it's good by bringing people into the ownership.

[00:19:17 - 00:19:24]
Bob Nienaber

But in reality, the ownership is very small for most of the people. And in those relationships and esops are expensive. And,

[00:19:25 - 00:19:39]
Bob Nienaber

in some, in some issues, instances, we'll, we'll tell companies to look at an Esop, but there's a lot of other plans you can do business succession using traditional executive benefit plans or a lot of smaller private health companies will use a,

[00:19:39 - 00:19:40]
Bob Nienaber

private placement type of,

[00:19:40 - 00:19:44]
Bob Nienaber

insurance product to store dollars tax free and build it up very,

[00:19:44 - 00:19:46]
Bob Nienaber

little dollars going out to the insurance.

[00:19:46 - 00:19:48]
Bob Nienaber

But it makes those dollars tax free.

[00:19:48 - 00:19:53]
Bob Nienaber

You might use some type of phantom stock. It's, you know, it's popular because it's,

[00:19:53 - 00:19:54]
Bob Nienaber

not funded.

[00:19:54 - 00:20:00]
Bob Nienaber

So upfront, it sounds good. Most employees don't like those types of things because to them, it's a hollow handshake.

[00:20:00 - 00:20:06]
Bob Nienaber

You know, most, most of those fan, plans fall apart before they're ever exercise, and employees know that.

[00:20:06 - 00:20:08]
Bob Nienaber

So they have to be real plans.

[00:20:08 - 00:20:15]
Bob Nienaber

And, you know, there's even split dollar plans where the share between the company and the participants. But every I've gone through,

[00:20:15 - 00:20:17]
Bob Nienaber

four different cells, and,

[00:20:17 - 00:20:23]
Bob Nienaber

I can tell you every single one, every single time I've sold a company, it's different than what I was expecting.

[00:20:23 - 00:20:25]
Bob Nienaber

It changes as you move along.

[00:20:25 - 00:20:37]
Bob Nienaber

You know, you look at the the buyers and the sellers, and you try to find out what the strongest point parts are. You're not just trying to sell it at the, you know, the days of somebody just coming in and dropping you $100 million,

[00:20:38 - 00:20:42]
Bob Nienaber

are very far and few between. So they're they're really looking for a plan.

[00:20:42 - 00:20:47]
Bob Nienaber

Here's how the transaction is going to happen. Here's what's going to happen after the transaction.

[00:20:47 - 00:20:58]
Bob Nienaber

And it might involve succession for some people, and it might involve longevity as far as savings for other people. So you got to look at every plan completely different. We, we work with a,

[00:20:58 - 00:21:03]
Bob Nienaber

section on our website where I think we have, last count, something like 35 million subscribers on it,

[00:21:03 - 00:21:09]
Bob Nienaber

where we can get a, a complete evaluation of a company for succession planning for,

[00:21:10 - 00:21:11]
Bob Nienaber

buy, sell plan.

[00:21:11 - 00:21:17]
Bob Nienaber

And so, you know, a lot of companies, they'll put a buy, sell plan together but never fund it. Huge mistake, because if somebody comes,

[00:21:17 - 00:21:20]
Bob Nienaber

disabled or worse, dies.

[00:21:20 - 00:21:28]
Bob Nienaber

You know, they've got a plan now and you've got stated amounts generally. But if there's no funding vehicle now, you've got a real problem. So we do a lot of corrective surgeries around,

[00:21:28 - 00:21:31]
Bob Nienaber

the proper uses of succession tools, how to do it.

[00:21:31 - 00:21:38]
Bob Nienaber

A lot of times you'll do bootstrap plans. You'll have something where the next owners have been with the company for 20 years, but they don't have any money. So,

[00:21:39 - 00:21:46]
Bob Nienaber

that's where you can bring in deferral dollars and build assets for them. And if they don't end up buying it in ten years or whatever the deals,

[00:21:46 - 00:21:47]
Bob Nienaber

then you pay them out of the plan.

[00:21:47 - 00:21:48]
Bob Nienaber

If they do,

[00:21:48 - 00:21:54]
Bob Nienaber

then use that money generally for a down payment to a bank. Now. So there's just a lot of ways you can, you can,

[00:21:54 - 00:22:01]
Bob Nienaber

look at it and it really depends on the size of the company and what the multiple is in that market space.

[00:22:01 - 00:22:09]
Craig Andrews

So. I see a lot of businesses just kind of get stuck in inaction because it feels overwhelming.

[00:22:09 - 00:22:15]
Craig Andrews

What's what are the risks to them if they of not making a decision on this?

[00:22:15 - 00:22:22]
Bob Nienaber

You know, you have to make a decision. But we all have a built in succession plan. Right? We're all going out for it first. So we know that if we do nothing,

[00:22:22 - 00:22:32]
Bob Nienaber

you know, God help the people that are the beneficiaries, both on your business partner sides and and on the family side, you know, most family members don't want to be in the business because they don't understand that maybe they don't.

[00:22:32 - 00:22:38]
Bob Nienaber

That's not their aspiration. But you still want your values to go to them. So you have to come up with a plan.

[00:22:38 - 00:22:50]
Bob Nienaber

The biggest challenge that that I see all the time is people make the mistake on the business side of bringing in the wrong partners. They don't really necessarily know how to vent that the people that they're,

[00:22:50 - 00:22:51]
Bob Nienaber

dealing with,

[00:22:51 - 00:22:55]
Bob Nienaber

we see a lot of times and, you know, I love people that self-insurance or,

[00:22:55 - 00:22:57]
Bob Nienaber

investments or for one case and all these things.

[00:22:57 - 00:23:06]
Bob Nienaber

But I also know they very, very seldom have the expertise around all the different business structures that we get into. And, you know, I've been doing this before,

[00:23:06 - 00:23:11]
Bob Nienaber

the regulations existed. So I've been doing this a long time. And, and so that experience,

[00:23:11 - 00:23:15]
Bob Nienaber

will drive different results. And so we get a lot of plans, unfortunately, that a broker,

[00:23:15 - 00:23:20]
Bob Nienaber

or advisor has given the wrong advice and has put the clients in a bad situation.

[00:23:20 - 00:23:28]
Bob Nienaber

So the biggest thing to vet on this is to make sure whoever you're working with has skills and experience and, and have them prove it,

[00:23:28 - 00:23:29]
Bob Nienaber

on, you know, have you

[00:23:29 - 00:23:32]
Bob Nienaber

have you sold executive benefit programs,

[00:23:32 - 00:23:37]
Bob Nienaber

for private companies in the past through market or for public? Whatever it is that you're calling from,

[00:23:37 - 00:23:42]
Bob Nienaber

if you're trying to do a succession plan, have you worked with succession plans, have you built models?

[00:23:42 - 00:23:47]
Bob Nienaber

Have you done this? You know, can you give me some successive and successful,

[00:23:48 - 00:24:04]
Bob Nienaber

situations that you can share that experience with? If they can't answer that, you're you're at the wrong place. And we'll see people that are unfortunately, you know, I had A41K that was a broker. I thought they understood deferred comp. We put the company in it and it's a horrible mess.

[00:24:04 - 00:24:06]
Bob Nienaber

And and this was no dig on 41K guys.

[00:24:06 - 00:24:13]
Bob Nienaber

You know because at the end of the day, there are some of them that we work with that are phenomenal. But getting to the right people,

[00:24:13 - 00:24:16]
Bob Nienaber

is something that you have to do. The wrong advice is going to mess you up.

[00:24:17 - 00:24:23]
Craig Andrews

You know what would be your advice to somebody who has some top performers that they don't want to lose?

[00:24:23 - 00:24:25]
Bob Nienaber

Put together a plan of some sort, you know, the,

[00:24:25 - 00:24:31]
Bob Nienaber

And don't wait. I remember, years ago, I went into a company I was in in Santa Barbara,

[00:24:31 - 00:24:35]
Bob Nienaber

went into a company, and they had, there were a manufacturing firm. And the owner,

[00:24:35 - 00:24:41]
Bob Nienaber

the family had been around since the late 1800s. It wasn't a a young company or anything in the,

[00:24:41 - 00:24:44]
Bob Nienaber

the primary shareholder, owner of the of the organization,

[00:24:44 - 00:24:51]
Bob Nienaber

was sitting down there with the CFO, Carlo, and, I think it was the CIO, if I remember.

[00:24:51 - 00:24:51]
Bob Nienaber

I,

[00:24:51 - 00:25:00]
Bob Nienaber

this is years ago, but, sat down and said, we don't need any benefit plans. Now, remember, I was brought in by, the CFO who had been there for less than six months,

[00:25:00 - 00:25:07]
Bob Nienaber

and the other two people in the room with the owner were also there for less than a year. And so they've they've had turnover at some point.

[00:25:07 - 00:25:15]
Bob Nienaber

And I asked the owner what's, what's turnover. Right. And he said we nobody ever leaves. And all three guys are brand new. And you know I threw that out. And

[00:25:15 - 00:25:24]
Bob Nienaber

then they said, he said nobody needs a benefit plan. Nobody needs any dollar set aside. I pay everybody well. And he did. He paid them extremely well.

[00:25:24 - 00:25:36]
Bob Nienaber

Problem is, they were getting killed on taxes, and and it was costing them money to say. And they had brought this up to him apparently about a half a dozen times before. And he he was really gruff and grumpy and,

[00:25:36 - 00:25:46]
Bob Nienaber

he said, there's no way I'm doing this. I'm not doing a plan. And at that meeting, and I've never seen anything so brazen in my life, the three employees all handed him the resignations.

[00:25:46 - 00:25:46]
Bob Nienaber

And,

[00:25:46 - 00:26:09]
Bob Nienaber

and so this is how strong it gets. You're not doing a benefit plan. Just to throw money at people. It's really not that about that at all. You're doing it in a way that locks people in and and rewards them for being locked into the organization. Success. Every year I'm managed by success. If if I have a successful year, then yeah, there's going to be bonus dollars and all that kind of stuff.

[00:26:10 - 00:26:24]
Bob Nienaber

If there's not untreated the same way as my employees are treated. If we didn't have a bad year, they don't get bonuses either. And I pay my my employees directly up to 100% of income when they hit the bonus on the stretch marks. And then there's those steps going up to that.

[00:26:24 - 00:26:28]
Bob Nienaber

And, and you want to put together a platform that keeps everybody happy.

[00:26:28 - 00:26:35]
Bob Nienaber

Also enable them to put away some dollars that they want to save for their kids education or things that they're going to need before retirement.

[00:26:35 - 00:26:35]
Bob Nienaber

In a,

[00:26:36 - 00:26:44]
Bob Nienaber

nice either tax free or pretax area so that when they go to pay for those goals, they're, they're utilized in much stronger values than,

[00:26:44 - 00:26:46]
Bob Nienaber

after tax money all the time.

[00:26:46 - 00:26:51]
Bob Nienaber

And, and when you do that and you make people feel good on the emotional side on, you know, being love from,

[00:26:51 - 00:27:00]
Bob Nienaber

being in the, in the company culture and all that, these people will stay around for, you know, 20, 30 years. It's very common, with my clients that,

[00:27:00 - 00:27:05]
Bob Nienaber

you know, we see people retiring 30 years in the business, 25 years in the business.

[00:27:05 - 00:27:06]
Bob Nienaber

And it's a wonderful thing,

[00:27:06 - 00:27:18]
Bob Nienaber

because they haven't left during all those, those years, and we've just managed their plans and gotten to know these people, their families, their spouses, you know, if they're in the high income, their state attorneys, all this stuff, you know?

[00:27:18 - 00:27:19]
Craig Andrews

Well, Bob, this is,

[00:27:19 - 00:27:20]
Craig Andrews

this has been fascinating,

[00:27:20 - 00:27:23]
Craig Andrews

obviously help people deeply. How can folks reach you.

[00:27:23 - 00:27:27]
Bob Nienaber

Know, probably the best way to get me. You can always go to benefit RFP,

[00:27:27 - 00:27:28]
Bob Nienaber

dot com and,

[00:27:28 - 00:27:29]
Bob Nienaber

and we have,

[00:27:29 - 00:27:33]
Bob Nienaber

you know, full website up there. You can reach us that way. A lot of people reach me through,

[00:27:33 - 00:27:34]
Bob Nienaber

LinkedIn.

[00:27:34 - 00:27:37]
Bob Nienaber

I've got tens of thousands of followers on LinkedIn.

[00:27:37 - 00:27:38]
Bob Nienaber

You couldn't and it's,

[00:27:38 - 00:27:45]
Bob Nienaber

you know, just pull up Bob Nienaber benefit RFP and and you'll pop to the right place and but reach out to us either way.

[00:27:45 - 00:27:46]
Bob Nienaber

And and,

[00:27:46 - 00:27:58]
Bob Nienaber

we'll hop on the phone, have a discussion, start the conversations. And our biggest goal, really, Craig, is, is the mentorship of that call. We just want to get you settled with what you're trying to achieve, start the process, and then,

[00:27:58 - 00:28:05]
Bob Nienaber

you know, we'll take you whatever direction you need to go, because there's not a facet in that arena that we haven't worked with on a regular basis.

[00:28:05 - 00:28:07]
Craig Andrews

Excellent. Well, thanks for coming on, Leaders and Legacies.

[00:28:07 - 00:28:15]
Bob Nienaber

I appreciate your time today, Craig. That was great seeing you.

[00:28:15 - 00:28:37]
Craig Andrews

This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Ally's for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this

[00:28:37 - 00:28:39]
Craig Andrews

episode on social media.

[00:28:39 - 00:29:02]
Craig Andrews

Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or posted on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest. Tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.

[00:29:02 - 00:29:11]
Craig Andrews

Please go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up. Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.

[00:29:11 - 00:29:21]
Craig Andrews

It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Ally's for me.com. Or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.