Chad King helps businesses stop bending themselves around rigid software. Today, as VP at Ayoka Systems, he focuses on automation, integration, and custom software strategies that make operations simpler, faster, and more profitable.
In this episode, Chad breaks down why so many companies are trapped between overpriced off-the-shelf tools and expensive full-custom builds. He explains how AI is changing software development, why tech debt quietly drags down business performance, and what leaders should watch before trusting agents to build mission-critical systems on their own. Chad also shares how his team evaluates whether software should be replaced, integrated, or rebuilt, and why the real goal is not more software but better financial performance and fewer things falling through the cracks.
Want to learn more about Chad King's work? Check out his website at https://rentmysoftware.com.
Connect with Chad King on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/chadoking/.
Key Points & Timestamps
- 00:00:51 - Chad King introduced: VP at Ayoka Systems, software developer, former Marine, and a leader focused on automation and integration.
- 00:02:02 - Chad explains why Success Champions Networking stands out: a give-first culture that rewards real relationships instead of transactional networking.
- 00:08:25 - He credits Daniel Vaughn and a life-changing first bite of brisket with helping spark the modern Texas barbecue obsession.
- 00:12:29 - Chad lays out the two old ways companies buy software: overloaded off-the-shelf stacks or slow, expensive full custom builds.
- 00:14:12 - He argues leaders need to judge software by total cost, including implementation pain, unused features, and the drag on employees.
- 00:15:37 - Craig and Chad discuss how AI agents could become a real threat to legacy SaaS platforms by replacing complex workflow builders with simpler automation layers.
- 00:18:05 - Chad explains when Ayoka integrates existing tools versus replacing them, and why many companies really need one pane of glass instead of more disconnected apps.
- 00:21:53 - He gives a plain-English definition of tech debt: a system expanded in pieces until it no longer resembles the clean version you would have designed from scratch.
- 00:24:17 - Chad warns that companies often bend their business around software limitations when the software should be shaped around the business instead.
- 00:27:20 - He cautions that AI is still heavily subsidized and should be used where it makes sense, not treated as a free forever replacement for disciplined engineering.
- 00:29:20 - Chad says AI is useful like a junior developer or consultant, but still needs strong supervision because fragile code and bad guardrails can create expensive mistakes.
- 00:30:33 - He says AI-built software can be excellent for proving a concept, but dangerous to run a business if it is not structured for scale, reliability, and best practices.
- 00:31:06 - How to reach Chad: LinkedIn, Instagram as bourbonandbarbecue, or rentmysoftware.com for his self-assessment and contact info.
Transcript
[00:00:05 - 00:00:30]
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment in my career.
[00:00:30 - 00:00:51]
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on this show.
[00:00:51 - 00:01:16]
Craig Andrews
Today I will welcome Chad King. He is the VP at Ayoka Systems. I probably pronounce that wrong, but we'll get it straight. Chad is also a whiskey enthusiast, a barbecue enthusiast. And let me just pause there. I got a text about a week ago from Chad saying, hey, I'm in your neighborhood, and he was eating at one of the top barbecues in Texas, but he's also a software developer who's focused on solving tough problems.
[00:01:16 - 00:01:20]
Craig Andrews
He helps companies scale through better automation and integration.
[00:01:20 - 00:01:31]
Craig Andrews
Chad brings a rare blend of strategic vision and hands on execution. And one of the things I love most as Chad is a former marine. Semper fi. Chad, welcome. You're.
[00:01:31 - 00:01:33]
Chad King
Thanks for having me, man. It's good to be here.
[00:01:33 - 00:01:34]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And, you know,
[00:01:34 - 00:01:56]
Craig Andrews
I've had a lot of folks from Success Champions Networking coming on the podcast, and I just feel like I'm going to plug SCN and I'm just going to say I get pitched to come on this podcast all the time, multiple times a day. And if you want to come on, get in SCN, let me get to know you there, because that's probably the easiest path,
[00:01:56 - 00:01:56]
Craig Andrews
there.
[00:01:56 - 00:02:02]
Craig Andrews
And for those who don't know what it is, what what does success champions? Networking.
[00:02:02 - 00:02:26]
Chad King
It is the best way to network that I have found. The the culture is so protected. The idea of give first is so ingrained and so I hate to say enforced, but it's it's just the new way to network. And look. I've built multiple businesses on kind of traditional networking right. And SCN and I'm an evangelist as well, Craig.
[00:02:26 - 00:02:38]
Chad King
And you know, I don't I don't get anything out of it other than improving my network. When good people come in and join. But I will spread the gospel on that SCN because it is the best networking culture that I've ever encountered.
[00:02:39 - 00:02:52]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. No, I, I love it, and there's great people there. I mean, I had a virtual coffee this morning was was somebody I was a little bit in the Bozo territory, but those are rare. It is. Those are, they're they're just like anywhere there.
[00:02:52 - 00:02:54]
Chad King
But you know what? They probably won't last.
[00:02:54 - 00:02:57]
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:02:57 - 00:03:09]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. We went a whole call without him asking me what type of introductions. Oh, hey. Like, okay.
[00:03:09 - 00:03:09]
Chad King
He,
[00:03:09 - 00:03:12]
Chad King
must not have taken how to network without being a jackass yet.
[00:03:12 - 00:03:19]
Craig Andrews
No, I don't think so. And it's funny, we had had a VC a while back, and the very first thing in my notes was,
[00:03:19 - 00:03:23]
Craig Andrews
he did all the talking, and then they asked me anything about my business, and,
[00:03:23 - 00:03:33]
Craig Andrews
and he had reached out to have I probably spoken his chapter, and that was probably the catalyst that reignited the, the VC.
[00:03:33 - 00:03:38]
Craig Andrews
But. Yeah. Anyway. But,
[00:03:38 - 00:03:39]
Craig Andrews
let's talk a little bit about,
[00:03:39 - 00:03:44]
Craig Andrews
barbecue. So when you were here, what places did you hit?
[00:03:44 - 00:03:47]
Chad King
So while I was down in Austin, we did,
[00:03:47 - 00:03:51]
Chad King
Friday night we went to Le Roy and Lewis.
[00:03:51 - 00:03:56]
Craig Andrews
Which is a just for those listening, that's a michelin star barbecue restaurant.
[00:03:56 - 00:04:12]
Chad King
And I had it's not traditional barbecue because it was tri tip, but it was one of the best bites of food I've ever had at a barbecue place. Yeah. Ratable like, I wish I could make tri tip like that. I've tried and I've not gotten close. So. So that's Friday. That was the Roy Lewis. Then,
[00:04:12 - 00:04:16]
Chad King
Friday morning, before the sun came up, I was in line at Snow's.
[00:04:16 - 00:04:17]
Craig Andrews
Yeah.
[00:04:17 - 00:04:18]
Chad King
And this, this trip was,
[00:04:18 - 00:04:21]
Chad King
was me and my buddies, by the way.
[00:04:21 - 00:04:23]
Chad King
The trip was me and five buddies.
[00:04:23 - 00:04:27]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Wow. Is snow still number one? I forgot where they ranked in the last.
[00:04:27 - 00:04:40]
Chad King
No I'm not. They may be top ten. I'd have to go back and look. I don't remember where they landed on on the, on the, on this last list, but they're definitely still on the list. But they, they've been number one twice. I think they've been number three.
[00:04:40 - 00:04:41]
Chad King
It's. Yeah.
[00:04:42 - 00:04:45]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. I haven't been to snows. I need to get over the snows.
[00:04:45 - 00:04:49]
Chad King
So but let me tell you what stole the show for us. Right.
[00:04:49 - 00:05:10]
Chad King
Because I saw a Sunday on the way home, we hit Helberg at just outside of Waco. Another top 50 place. Incredible. It was. It was fantastic. And so that was Masters weekend, right. And so they had a pimento cheese and brisket, grilled cheese, hoof. Oh, but let me tell you what the highlight of my weekend was.
[00:05:10 - 00:05:16]
Chad King
My favorite bit of food. The whole weekend came from briskets and Austin. Which have you have you heard of this.
[00:05:16 - 00:05:17]
Craig Andrews
I haven't.
[00:05:17 - 00:05:45]
Chad King
Okay. So it's it's down on the jacket. I think it's on a little. And the radio food court, the, you know, there's a little coffee shop there and a couple little trailers, so it's brisk. See you. It's like brisket and biscuits combined. Right. Okay. And they open at 8:00, and I had a biscuit, which on its own is one of the best biscuits I've ever had with brisket and smoked strawberry jam.
[00:05:45 - 00:05:46]
Craig Andrews
Oh my goodness.
[00:05:46 - 00:06:04]
Chad King
It was incredible. And the brisket would have stood alone as probably a top ten slice of brisket I've ever had. Wow. And you put it all together and like in the menu is so hard to choose. Like, I finally like I was like kind of waffling and I saw that. I'm like, that's it. I'm just pulling the trigger.
[00:06:04 - 00:06:10]
Chad King
I'll be here all day, right? If I'm if I, if I keep looking at this menu so that I locked in on that one and just went for it. My dad got,
[00:06:10 - 00:06:20]
Chad King
the brisket, biscuits and gravy, which was phenomenal. So yeah, man. Brisket in Austin. It's a top 50 joint. So I got a stamp in the passport, the whole nine yards.
[00:06:20 - 00:06:35]
Chad King
But it was really cool. Oh, and by the way, I'm going to put this out there for your listeners. Anybody who it's thinking about going, it's okay if it's raining. There is some covered seating. And it was raining that morning and we couldn't tell. I couldn't find anywhere any information online about whether that was going be a problem for us or not.
[00:06:35 - 00:06:40]
Chad King
But we decided to roll the dice and go for it and it is not a problem. You can go to briskets in the rain.
[00:06:40 - 00:06:43]
Craig Andrews
Wow. And did you say that's down man? Check.
[00:06:43 - 00:06:51]
Chad King
I think so. Yeah, they've got a good website. It's all on there. It's in one of those.
[00:06:51 - 00:06:52]
Craig Andrews
I'll check it out for.
[00:06:52 - 00:06:53]
Chad King
One of those food.
[00:06:53 - 00:07:05]
Craig Andrews
Trucks. Yeah, there used to be a place down, man. Check. And I've. I've forgotten the name of it, but they were, like, insanely good. And then they went brick and mortar and screwed the pooch Valentinos. Yes.
[00:07:05 - 00:07:20]
Chad King
Yeah. It used that used to be the best breakfast taco on the planet, in my opinion. Yeah. And then they went brick and mortar, which was a mistake. And then they got greedy and started cutting some corners. And it's, you know, it's a tale as old as time. And now they're gone.
[00:07:21 - 00:07:44]
Craig Andrews
Wow. What? I'm interested in your take on that salmon theory on, you know, when I first moved to Texas 22 years ago, you know, I went out and I moved from North Carolina, where barbecue, you know, you get a whole barbecue plate for, like, seven bucks. But it was it was pulled pork, usually vinegar based. Yep. And I come in, I'm like, wow, barbecue is expensive here.
[00:07:44 - 00:07:50]
Craig Andrews
But the brisket just blew me away. And the first my first real barbecue.
[00:07:50 - 00:08:01]
Craig Andrews
Well, I had I think first place was green mesquite on Barton Springs Road, which was okay. Yeah. There's a reason you don't probably remember it. And then second was,
[00:08:01 - 00:08:09]
Craig Andrews
Cooper's out in Plano, and and that just that blew me away. Cooper's absolutely blew me away.
[00:08:09 - 00:08:20]
Craig Andrews
And it used to be my favorite, but at one point, things changed, and I feel like there was. I feel like barbecue took a significant leap forward in the last 10 to 15 years.
[00:08:20 - 00:08:22]
Chad King
100%, yes.
[00:08:23 - 00:08:25]
Craig Andrews
Okay. What do you think caused that?
[00:08:25 - 00:08:40]
Chad King
Well, it was catching on, but I really have to kind of credit one guy, and his name is Daniel Vaughn, and he's now the barbecue editor for Texas Monthly, which never existed. When I met Daniel, he had he had put out a book and,
[00:08:40 - 00:08:43]
Chad King
it's called The Prophets of Smoked Meat. And on on,
[00:08:43 - 00:08:50]
Chad King
you know, X and all the socials, whatever he's at, he's barbecue snob, and he's the guy that got out there and started talking.
[00:08:50 - 00:08:56]
Chad King
And I honestly credit him for my barbecue journey because I used to think, you know, my local place, you know,
[00:08:56 - 00:09:04]
Chad King
I thought I knew what brisket was. And I heard I heard Daniel on the radio one morning. And, you know, he kept talking about Pecan Lodge in Dallas, which,
[00:09:04 - 00:09:07]
Chad King
they're not what they once were. But back in the day.
[00:09:07 - 00:09:23]
Chad King
Oh, it was incredible. I mean, it was better than the old school places in Lockhart or whatever, which, you know, used to be ground zero for Texas barbecue. Right. And I'm like, he kept talking about this. I'm like, okay, I got it. And I remember the first bite of brisket I had that changed my life. And it it literally changed my life.
[00:09:23 - 00:09:40]
Chad King
Right? Like, I mean, I go on barbecue road trips now because the first time I had that bite that went, oh, this is what brisket can be. Yeah, right. And I've had that experience with beer and, you know, whatever. Right. But where it's like, well, it just changed my opinion of something, you know, and it's like, wow, okay.
[00:09:40 - 00:09:51]
Chad King
No, this is this is worth chasing to me. Like, you know, that next special bite is worth chasing to me. And it's social, you know, I do it with friends and stuff. I do road trips with my wife. But yeah, I think,
[00:09:51 - 00:09:58]
Chad King
it was kind of happening. It's on its own. But I think Vaughn, Daniel Vaughn really, really was a catalyst for it taking off like it did.
[00:09:58 - 00:10:05]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, and for me, you know, if you're going to a decent barbecue joint, you know, you're standing in line
[00:10:06 - 00:10:07]
Craig Andrews
and,
[00:10:07 - 00:10:17]
Craig Andrews
let's tell my wife, you know, when when she woke up that morning that you went to snows, I told her, you know, that you were over there. And she's like, Holy cow, that's early.
[00:10:17 - 00:10:20]
Craig Andrews
And you got there probably, what, 630 in the morning?
[00:10:20 - 00:10:22]
Chad King
About 535, 530.
[00:10:22 - 00:10:25]
Craig Andrews
And you were 51st in line? Yep.
[00:10:25 - 00:10:29]
Craig Andrews
But what I've found, you know, I've waited in line over,
[00:10:29 - 00:10:30]
Craig Andrews
I think my
[00:10:30 - 00:10:42]
Craig Andrews
favorite line that I've waited on is at Barb's, barbecue in Lockhart. Yeah. And it's just fun because the people that are there are people like you. They're real passionate about it. And,
[00:10:43 - 00:10:44]
Craig Andrews
they're neat people, and.
[00:10:44 - 00:10:54]
Craig Andrews
And, you know, I'm I'm somewhat local here. Most of the people there are over at Barb's, they're like, they traveled like you from DFW or somewhere else. Dude, the.
[00:10:54 - 00:11:09]
Chad King
People behind us, it snows that morning. We're from here, from Germany. Wow. Yeah. We've been in line with people from Connecticut before. In fact, this is one of my favorite stories I got to tell you this. We're in line at snows. I think it was. I think it was two times ago when we were there. And,
[00:11:09 - 00:11:11]
Chad King
you know, that morning we happened to get there about five.
[00:11:11 - 00:11:15]
Chad King
So we'd been there for a little bit and it's it's closing in on like 530. And,
[00:11:15 - 00:11:20]
Chad King
we had met this guy from Connecticut and we were having, you know, great conversation. It was all good. And,
[00:11:20 - 00:11:23]
Chad King
he goes and I was I had broken out some whiskey and was sipping and,
[00:11:23 - 00:11:25]
Chad King
he goes, what are you drinking there?
[00:11:25 - 00:11:37]
Chad King
Like a whiskey? He goes, no, no, I see what Stagg Jr. And he goes, Holy shit, I thought I was a bad ass for a drink. And Shiner Bock at 530 in the morning and you're drinking Stagg Jr.
[00:11:38 - 00:11:40]
Craig Andrews
Haha. It was just fun. I'm.
[00:11:41 - 00:11:44]
Chad King
I'm not trying to be much or anything, but it was just it was super funny.
[00:11:45 - 00:11:50]
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. Well, we should probably talk about song. I mean, we, we could do.
[00:11:50 - 00:11:52]
Chad King
Barbecue. I could do this forever. Yeah.
[00:11:52 - 00:11:54]
Craig Andrews
I mean, we should probably talk software.
[00:11:54 - 00:11:56]
Chad King
I think so, yeah.
[00:11:56 - 00:12:01]
Craig Andrews
So. All right. And get me straight on the. Are you okay? Am I saying that right? Yep.
[00:12:01 - 00:12:02]
Chad King
Ecosystems.
[00:12:02 - 00:12:05]
Craig Andrews
Okay. And what I know I,
[00:12:05 - 00:12:07]
Craig Andrews
I know what you has meaning, but I forgot what that means.
[00:12:07 - 00:12:15]
Chad King
Yeah. So it's actually the founder's wife's middle name, but it's an African word. And Ayaka means one who brings joy to all.
[00:12:15 - 00:12:17]
Craig Andrews
I love that.
[00:12:17 - 00:12:18]
Chad King
We try.
[00:12:18 - 00:12:26]
Craig Andrews
I love that. Oh my goodness. Because so much so frequently software does not bring joy.
[00:12:26 - 00:12:29]
Chad King
It man, it does not.
[00:12:29 - 00:12:50]
Chad King
Yeah. And you know, people today, people are stuck. They're held prisoner by the two old ways of buying software. And that is you, you buy off the shelf. Maybe you take the philosophy of best in breeds. You've got five different things that are all trying to do something specialized. Right. And so now you're you're paying for all these and you're using maybe 10% of each of them.
[00:12:50 - 00:13:05]
Chad King
But guess what? You don't get to pay 10%. You're you're paying for all of it, right? You're paying for the portions you're not using. And there's still something you need that it doesn't do. Or you have the resources to build custom, which is great, but you can. It can take forever and cost a fortune and nothing against it.
[00:13:05 - 00:13:21]
Chad King
Right? We spent 20 years building full custom software. Right. And so the beauty is a business gets exactly what they need. But most of the time you're living with something. And what happens is it's not joyful. Your people find it to be an absolutely beating. Right. It's not a tool that's helping them do their job. It's something they have to use.
[00:13:21 - 00:13:40]
Chad King
It's not making them more effective. It's just that it's it's a hassle, right? And it is far from bringing joy. And so we literally try to do that. We, we, we do our best to build systems that are actually a tool that makes someone do their job better, makes it easier for them to do their job, and everybody wins.
[00:13:40 - 00:14:03]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. You know, I used to work for a semiconductor company in North Carolina that was a little late to adopt the same thing. Okay. And the CEO who came from Tyco, said, the good news is it only cost us $1 million to implement SAP. The bad news is it only cost us $1 million to implement SAP that, you know, he was saying our systems were too crude.
[00:14:03 - 00:14:12]
Craig Andrews
Yep. And but that's just insane. You know, I go and buy the software and the real expense is getting it to work.
[00:14:12 - 00:14:30]
Chad King
You gotta look at the cost, right? You got to look at that. You got to look at total cost. And that that involves the price of the software. Right. But then what else? Like what other vendors are you having to hire? How much pain is it for you and your people? How's the time. And that sap literally can be a three year implementation before somebody gets it right.
[00:14:31 - 00:14:48]
Chad King
And again, you're paying for a bunch of stuff that you don't use, and there's probably stuff you still need that you don't have. And so, you know, there's some new technology available and we're obviously leveraging AI. But now we can deliver a highly customized platform that's 95% of custom for somebody. They're getting exactly what they need for their business.
[00:14:48 - 00:15:00]
Chad King
It's a real tool for their employees, and we can do it in a fraction of the time and pretty much it off the shelf prices. So you're getting custom software. You get the best of both worlds. You no longer have to decide between, you know, between the two old West.
[00:15:00 - 00:15:04]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, I, you know, AI is,
[00:15:05 - 00:15:15]
Craig Andrews
And I'm not going to say the name in the episode because one can say afterwards, buy is one of the, one of the larger marketing platform, CRM marketing platforms.
[00:15:15 - 00:15:16]
Chad King
I can guess.
[00:15:16 - 00:15:17]
Craig Andrews
And,
[00:15:17 - 00:15:37]
Craig Andrews
and, you know, for years they've been really, really good in the last few years, they've just they've gotten a little Chesley about things. The software has gotten a little buggy. And the and I started saying a couple years ago is like, there's going to be another competitor. They're not going to hold their lofty position five years from now.
[00:15:37 - 00:15:52]
Craig Andrews
I think they're going to have serious competition on their case just because of the way they were treating their customers and the ecosystem. And then in the last couple months, I realized, oh, they're competitors. Is is now these autonomous agents?
[00:15:52 - 00:16:04]
Craig Andrews
That I was looking at, you know, start thinking about marketing automations. Oh, you want me to go in and program this, this complex workflow to do all these things and think about all the use case,
[00:16:04 - 00:16:06]
Craig Andrews
all the places where it would break?
[00:16:06 - 00:16:18]
Craig Andrews
I was like, I just need a CRM and an AI agent that I'd say, hey, here's the automations that we want to run for. Somebody that meets these criteria. And that's,
[00:16:18 - 00:16:29]
Craig Andrews
I think it's really I think it's a massive, massive threat to these companies. The the agents are still too immature. Yeah, right now. But this world is changing fast.
[00:16:29 - 00:16:43]
Chad King
Fast, fast like like people like to ask me how I is changing my business. And I have to say, I don't know. I mean, I can tell you how it has changed it so far, but it's happening so fast. I'm not sure what it's going to look like in a year.
[00:16:43 - 00:16:50]
Craig Andrews
Yeah, well, I mean, we've seen it. I mean, a lot of the SaaS companies got rocked in, in,
[00:16:50 - 00:16:51]
Craig Andrews
stock price.
[00:16:51 - 00:17:00]
Craig Andrews
Because people are starting to speculate, hey, these these agents, you know, instead of buying this expensive marketing platform, whether it's,
[00:17:00 - 00:17:08]
Craig Andrews
pardot or HubSpot or whatever. Yeah, you know, you just need a basic CRM with an API.
[00:17:08 - 00:17:13]
Craig Andrews
And if somebody doesn't make one, you know, an agent can kind of whip something together for you.
[00:17:13 - 00:17:19]
Chad King
Yeah. Which which, by the way, I gotta throw this out there. If you called me and said, hey, I need a CRM,
[00:17:19 - 00:17:32]
Chad King
we would have a very long conversation about why none of the thousand on the market would work for you. Because we don't build what exists, right? We we we I would want to know, like if you if something is off the market that would suit you off the shelf, you should you should go do that.
[00:17:32 - 00:17:47]
Chad King
Right. If it's if it's truly suited. I need to know you know, where there's not a fit, you know. And then we'll talk about that. And maybe it does make sense to build something. We've certainly built a number of CRM, but we always have that conversation first because I need to know what's unique to you and how are your needs not being met.
[00:17:47 - 00:17:53]
Craig Andrews
And when I've talked to you guys before, my my impressions steer me in if I have this right or wrong.
[00:17:53 - 00:18:05]
Craig Andrews
You guys have, you know, people have bought these off the shelf systems and, you know, it's like France and Germany. They just they don't like each other and they don't talk to each other. Yeah. And you guys figure out how to make them talk.
[00:18:05 - 00:18:08]
Chad King
A lot of times. Yeah. So we might replace both of them.
[00:18:08 - 00:18:21]
Chad King
And, and give you the one system that you really needed with nothing that has to talk to each other. Right. We put we put one pane of glass, one dashboard where you can see how your business is performing. Because everything we do is all about improving financial performance, right?
[00:18:21 - 00:18:36]
Chad King
We're looking at operations like what's falling through the cracks like so yeah, you bet. You've got two software systems and they're both good at different things and they're not talking to each other. So you're rendering and touch a ton of data and things are still falling through the cracks. Right? These are the people we help when they know that.
[00:18:36 - 00:18:53]
Chad King
And these are good businesses, by the way, crack. We're not working with people that are in trouble. We're working with good businesses that are, you know, you know, they're making money, but they also know that that they're leaving some on the table or things are still falling through the cracks because they don't have the technology tools to support how they actually need their workflow to be.
[00:18:53 - 00:18:55]
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. But yeah.
[00:18:55 - 00:19:08]
Chad King
You're absolutely right. If you've got if we're building something for you, but you've got two systems that are doing certain things for you really well, we won't replace that, will integrate with it usually, like there are people out there that don't play nice no matter what.
[00:19:08 - 00:19:10]
Chad King
But you know, like,
[00:19:10 - 00:19:15]
Chad King
epic is if you're not a 500 pound gorilla, good luck working with epic, right?
[00:19:15 - 00:19:17]
Chad King
The health care, you know, EMR.
[00:19:17 - 00:19:31]
Chad King
But most things, if you have something, it's working. Well, we're not going to replace that. We will probably do a data interchange so that now you're using the functionality, but you're not having to log into it. Right? You're logging into our system. You're interacting with the same system all day. We've given you exactly what you need.
[00:19:31 - 00:19:37]
Chad King
But we have that other system that's still kind of performing its function without you having to actually ever go interact with it.
[00:19:37 - 00:19:57]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, I'm interested in your take on the let me if I was a CEO of a SaaS company right now, I, I would be pulling my team offsite for three or 4 or 5 days saying, where are we going? What are we going to do to stay relevant?
[00:19:57 - 00:20:06]
Chad King
Totally agree. I totally yeah, yeah. This may sound weird for a software company, but we believe that most people have too much software, and most of that is SAS, right?
[00:20:06 - 00:20:18]
Chad King
You know, you could almost view what we do as SaaS because of the financial model. But it's custom. We're, we're we're using modules. We have building, you know, custom writing the pieces that we don't to give somebody exactly what they need.
[00:20:19 - 00:20:29]
Chad King
It is an affordable monthly payment. So it is that ongoing cost which you if you look at it from, you know, one perspective that's good because now it is an apex instead of a CapEx. Right. The accountants seem to dig that.
[00:20:29 - 00:20:35]
Chad King
But yeah, it does become an ongoing thing. But guess what? If you have software, there's an ongoing payment anyway because it always needs upgrades.
[00:20:35 - 00:20:54]
Chad King
You're, you're, you know, you got hosting costs, maintenance, security, things like that. We handle all that under one affordable monthly payment. So, you know, in a way you could look at that as SaaS. But it's not because you're not in that box that you get with SAS. Right? And you know, let's look at Salesforce. They'll tell you all day long that you that you can customize it into whatever you want.
[00:20:54 - 00:21:11]
Chad King
And that's true. But that is also expensive. And then it becomes fragile because now when Salesforce updates their base platform, it affects all your customizations. You got to go deal with that again. Yeah. So yeah, that's one of those, you know, one of the old two ways that you've been stuck with. And we kind of we've got the best of both worlds.
[00:21:11 - 00:21:16]
Chad King
You can get enterprise class solutions even for a smaller midsize business.
[00:21:16 - 00:21:29]
Craig Andrews
So if you were is Marc Benioff, is he still the CEO of of. So yeah. So if you're Marc and you're sitting there, you're looking on this mountain of spaghetti code that you've just spent, what, 20, 25 years building?
[00:21:29 - 00:21:30]
Chad King
Yep.
[00:21:30 - 00:21:35]
Craig Andrews
Maybe 30. When did they start?
[00:21:35 - 00:21:45]
Chad King
Yeah, probably closer to the 25. Maybe. It might have been. It might have been more like the mid 90s. Yeah, maybe it is 30. I'd have to check that. I'm not sure. Yeah, but at least 25.
[00:21:45 - 00:21:53]
Craig Andrews
So if you're sitting on this mountain and spaghetti code, what are you doing?
[00:21:53 - 00:21:54]
Chad King
Counting on,
[00:21:54 - 00:22:03]
Chad King
corporate America being a battleship that is slow to move. And riding that out and, you know, like he's a smart guy,
[00:22:03 - 00:22:06]
Chad King
very obviously. Right. I'm sure they're looking at what's next.
[00:22:07 - 00:22:11]
Chad King
But, yeah, it's I think it's going to be very disruptive.
[00:22:11 - 00:22:21]
Craig Andrews
Well, I think that's the problem when you're, when you're dealing with a sales force or a SAP is you have all this tech that he,
[00:22:21 - 00:22:25]
Craig Andrews
And for those that don't know what's tech debt, how would you define tech that.
[00:22:25 - 00:22:50]
Chad King
So here's a good example of it. Right. You built a two bedroom house and you add it on here and there and made changes because what you ultimately needed was an apartment complex. And so you grew your two bedroom house into either a mansion or an apartment complex. And it is nowhere near the way you would have built that had you designed it to be what it became from the beginning, and from built it that way from the ground up.
[00:22:50 - 00:23:09]
Chad King
Right. You've just had you've made decisions and you end up with things that you really, at some point need to just go back and rebuild. Right? Just to scrap it and start over would be the best solution. But you've added on here and there as needs came along and things changed. And so yeah, you ended up with this behemoth that you would have never built it that way from the beginning.
[00:23:09 - 00:23:20]
Craig Andrews
Well, and you still and you have to support legacy. Oh yeah. Look at shoes. I mean, I, I saw a news article just in the last week that the next version of OS X,
[00:23:20 - 00:23:25]
Craig Andrews
will be the first version that doesn't support the Intel processors.
[00:23:25 - 00:23:27]
Chad King
Oh, really?
[00:23:27 - 00:23:30]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. They've been away from Intel processors for years.
[00:23:30 - 00:23:35]
Chad King
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I didn't realize they were going to stop support while. Okay.
[00:23:35 - 00:23:37]
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah.
[00:23:37 - 00:23:50]
Chad King
There you go. And who knows who knows what they had to do. There was some little thing buried in there that probably still needed that. Right. It didn't make sense in 100 ways, but there was something that probably still required it.
[00:23:50 - 00:24:07]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And that's the problem there. See, for folks like Salesforce or SAP, is they have that tech debt. And it's like at some point they have to rip up everything. Yeah. And and put their legacy clients.
[00:24:07 - 00:24:17]
Chad King
But Craig not even not even just the tech debt but functionally for your business, what are you living with that's not the right fit. How are you bending your business to fit that tool?
[00:24:17 - 00:24:17]
Craig Andrews
Right.
[00:24:17 - 00:24:29]
Chad King
When when you really your process would be better off if you were really running your business? The way it should and you had optimal workflows, it would be different than what you're stuck with because of those those software tools that have you in that box.
[00:24:29 - 00:24:36]
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. No. And that's absolutely right. I mean, the the marketing platform that I use,
[00:24:36 - 00:24:41]
Craig Andrews
there are there are things that,
[00:24:41 - 00:24:48]
Craig Andrews
where I'm, I'm building my workflow around its capabilities rather than building my workflow around when it. Well, here, let me give you an example.
[00:24:48 - 00:24:51]
Craig Andrews
So we were talking about this. I've started using Open Call.
[00:24:51 - 00:25:11]
Craig Andrews
And for those listening, this thing is still very young. It's not well behaved. It's, you know, I fell for the trap where, you know, I'm watching these YouTube videos and I told you I was like, oh, yeah, I made an autonomous agent Todd surprise me in the morning. I woke up one morning and baked me a cake. And,
[00:25:11 - 00:25:15]
Craig Andrews
I have yet to have that experience.
[00:25:15 - 00:25:15]
Craig Andrews
Instead,
[00:25:15 - 00:25:19]
Craig Andrews
I woke up this morning and I got a stream of Json data, and,
[00:25:19 - 00:25:25]
Craig Andrews
which I've told it like, five times. Never show me Json data again unless I ask for it.
[00:25:25 - 00:25:25]
Chad King
Right.
[00:25:26 - 00:25:30]
Craig Andrews
And just decide to dump that into the stream and,
[00:25:30 - 00:25:33]
Craig Andrews
but, you know, the,
[00:25:33 - 00:25:41]
Craig Andrews
you know, the platform I use my, my podcast where I host this blog is based on that platform. Okay.
[00:25:41 - 00:25:42]
Craig Andrews
I was like,
[00:25:43 - 00:25:53]
Craig Andrews
I used to go in when episode went live. I would go in and I had a little tool where I integrated AI into the platform and would write the social media post to help promote the episode.
[00:25:53 - 00:26:08]
Craig Andrews
Well, that way away, when I put in a, you know, I put in a bug report and they're like, oh no, it's behaving just like it should. I'm like, wait a minute, no it's not. And then they went research it. Oh yeah, we took away that feature because we're going to now start charging for that.
[00:26:08 - 00:26:15]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. I'm like, oh well you just accelerated the rate, which I'm becoming less dependent on you.
[00:26:15 - 00:26:39]
Craig Andrews
And so now I have my agent monitoring when I have a podcast episode going live, and I have a sub agent named Joker, Private Joker. Nice. So Hartman's monitoring when the episode goes live tells Joker. Hey, Joker, I need you to write me a social media post. And Joker is a specially trained agent on on copyrighting. And,
[00:26:40 - 00:26:40]
Craig Andrews
but he screwed that up.
[00:26:40 - 00:26:48]
Craig Andrews
He forgot to do the post this morning for me, and so I had to mark them. And then it gave me a load of crap. I'm like, same,
[00:26:48 - 00:26:57]
Craig Andrews
same thing is it's weird. Today is really weird behavior. It was a it was a post for some other podcast. I'm not sure which one.
[00:26:57 - 00:27:03]
Craig Andrews
But the I was like, that's wrong, but but anyway, we'll get this worked out.
[00:27:03 - 00:27:20]
Craig Andrews
And so the way they got Chesley about, you know, hey, we're going to start charging you these AI credits to do the social media post. I'm like, all right, have an agent that's a copywriter. I'm just going to monitor when I have a monitor when episodes go live. Right. The social media post.
[00:27:20 - 00:27:32]
Chad King
Absolutely. Hey, also, I don't know if you realize that you just highlighted one of the other problems of the air right now. It's being heavily subsidized. Right? And so we're all getting highly dependent on it. But you know, if you're paying,
[00:27:32 - 00:27:44]
Chad King
I want to say it was OpenAI, maybe. Isn't that one of them recently let out that, that their clients that are paying $200 a month, they're spending about five k, okay, that math don't work for long.
[00:27:44 - 00:27:53]
Chad King
And so they're getting us all hooked. And if you're relying too heavily on it, like a lot of the stuff we do, we we leverage AI where it makes sense.
[00:27:53 - 00:27:54]
Craig Andrews
But we are using.
[00:27:54 - 00:28:11]
Chad King
Good old fashioned code, right? And doing things deterministically where we can and leveraging with AI where it makes sense because we're going to end up upside down, or our clients are right if we build things that are too heavily dependent on I suddenly when they start charging what they should, it may not be sustainable.
[00:28:11 - 00:28:17]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. No. And that's a really, really good point. The other thing is,
[00:28:17 - 00:28:30]
Craig Andrews
I would say that anybody that's been listening and saying, hey, I can write my code, I, I don't need to hire someone. My, my brother in law, it's a very senior developer that works at the kernel level. Yeah. And he,
[00:28:30 - 00:28:33]
Craig Andrews
he's done a lot of work for government for the for the government.
[00:28:33 - 00:28:37]
Craig Andrews
I think he was right. And viruses. So it's working at that level.
[00:28:37 - 00:28:38]
Chad King
Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:38 - 00:28:39]
Craig Andrews
And,
[00:28:39 - 00:28:50]
Craig Andrews
but he told me recently, he said, I don't think I'll ever write another line of code. My job is to supervise the agent and and it takes his special specialty,
[00:28:50 - 00:29:00]
Craig Andrews
to do it. But not only that, he told me the other day we were chatting. His agent went off and deleted a month's worth of work.
[00:29:00 - 00:29:00]
Craig Andrews
Glad.
[00:29:00 - 00:29:02]
Chad King
To hear it's not just us.
[00:29:02 - 00:29:20]
Craig Andrews
Yeah, so you didn't have guardrails up. And so I guess where I'm going with that is my fear is a lot of businesses will see this and they'll say, well, I don't need a senior software developer. Right? Everything I'm saying is, oh, no, yes, you.
[00:29:20 - 00:29:23]
Chad King
Do as you do, Matt. Look, we leverage it like an I.
[00:29:23 - 00:29:28]
Chad King
I don't ever want to come across as anti AI because I'm not. It's changing business right. It's changing the world
[00:29:28 - 00:29:38]
Chad King
faster than the internet did. But be careful with it. Like leverage it, use it as a tool. Right. Like honestly we treat it kind of like a junior developer.
[00:29:38 - 00:29:48]
Chad King
Yeah. Now also we sometimes treat it like a consultant to be fair. Right. But we don't put too much trust in it because it still makes mistakes. Man.
[00:29:49 - 00:30:10]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Yeah. Well and that's I mean for me I, I had to dig deep and not that I've ever been a developer, but I had you know, I've, I've hung around with developers and I realized when I start getting errors, I'm like, hey, let's make a production pipeline. And anytime you push new code, why don't we do a smoke test,
[00:30:10 - 00:30:12]
Craig Andrews
to see if anything broke?
[00:30:12 - 00:30:33]
Craig Andrews
I had to tell it to do that. Yeah. And and so that's, that's an example of where if you know somebody singing about using AI. Absolutely. But if it's involving code, there's a lot of knowhow that I don't have. And, and your average business owner doesn't have about how could be developed and how the agents need to be supervised.
[00:30:33 - 00:30:49]
Chad King
It's you know, what it is. It's it can be a pretty good way to to prove a concept. Right. If you if you can spend a weekend or a month or whatever and build something to kind of prove how you want something to work, the problem is it's usually fragile, right? If you don't understand data structure and best coding practices,
[00:30:49 - 00:30:53]
Chad King
if you if you build something that way, it is probably not going to be scalable.
[00:30:53 - 00:30:59]
Chad King
It's probably be pretty fragile. And if you're relying on that to run your business, you could end up in a bad spot pretty quickly.
[00:30:59 - 00:31:06]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. For those that don't want to be in a bad spot now, how they call you.
[00:31:06 - 00:31:06]
Chad King
Man,
[00:31:06 - 00:31:08]
Chad King
I'm I'm I'm pretty easy to find.
[00:31:08 - 00:31:09]
Chad King
I am,
[00:31:09 - 00:31:12]
Chad King
bourbon and barbecue on Instagram.
[00:31:12 - 00:31:13]
Chad King
Not skinny. That's not me. I am, but,
[00:31:13 - 00:31:14]
Chad King
that. But,
[00:31:14 - 00:31:15]
Chad King
you know, I'm on LinkedIn.
[00:31:15 - 00:31:23]
Chad King
But, man, the easiest way to get to me is go to rent my software.com, and there's actually an assessment on there. There's a, there's a self-assessment.
[00:31:23 - 00:31:40]
Chad King
You can go on there. And if you see yourself in, you know, more than 2 or 3 of these questions, we should probably have a conversation because I might be able to help. But yeah, go to rent my software.com, take that self-assessment or just schedule a call. But you know, all our contact info is on there. That's the easiest way to find me.
[00:31:40 - 00:31:43]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, awesome. Well, Chad, hey, I really appreciate,
[00:31:43 - 00:31:50]
Craig Andrews
always enjoyed chatting with you, and this was a great place to do it. I do hope folks will reach out to you because,
[00:31:50 - 00:32:01]
Craig Andrews
I see it clearly. My experimenting with. I, it takes a pretty savvy, pretty senior software developer to oversee the work that does.
[00:32:02 - 00:32:08]
Chad King
Well, the the AI aside, man, if if you have unpredictable profits or you're seeing eroding margin,
[00:32:08 - 00:32:17]
Chad King
margins, that's we we can almost always help with that. And and by the way, we tell people, if you're not going to get a multiple of 4 or 5 x what you're spending with us, we shouldn't do it in the first place.
[00:32:17 - 00:32:27]
Chad King
Right? So let's if we should have a conversation, man. If you just if you see things slipping, if you have inconsistent quoting, inconsistent processes, we might be able to help with that.
[00:32:27 - 00:32:31]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well reach out talk to Chad.
[00:32:31 - 00:32:33]
Chad King
Love it. Thanks man. It's been a blast.
[00:32:33 - 00:32:40]
Craig Andrews
Been awesome.
[00:32:40 - 00:33:02]
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to allies4me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this
[00:33:02 - 00:33:03]
Craig Andrews
episode on social media.
[00:33:03 - 00:33:27]
Craig Andrews
Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or posted on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest. Tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.
[00:33:27 - 00:33:35]
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up. Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.
[00:33:35 - 00:33:45]
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to allies4me.com. Or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
