Aron Phillips is an attorney and founder of the Law Office of Aron Phillips in the Stockyards of Fort Worth, where he advises business owners on entity formation, mergers and acquisitions, and commercial real estate. From a century-old building overlooking the daily cattle drive, Aron brings a practical legal perspective shaped by business realities rather than courtroom theatrics.
In this episode, Aron explains what business owners should look for when they need legal help, where layered LLC structures can actually make sense, and why the right attorney fit matters as much as legal horsepower. He also shares how he approaches high-stakes deals with patience, trust, and finesse instead of force, and why preserving a client's autonomy often leads to better outcomes than trying to bulldoze a negotiation.
Want to learn more about Aron Phillips's work? Check out his website at http://aphillipslawoffice.com.
Connect with Aron Phillips on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/aron-r-phillips-47222b91/.
Key Points & Timestamps
- 00:00:51 - Aron Phillips introduced: Fort Worth attorney and founder of the Law Office of Aron Phillips, focused on business owners, M&A, and commercial real estate.
- 00:02:22 - Aron describes his unusual office in the Stockyards, where cattle drives pass his window twice a day and meetings sometimes have to be scheduled around them.
- 00:05:50 - He explains that most clients first find him for three things: starting a business, buying or selling a business, or handling a commercial real estate transaction.
- 00:06:31 - Aron says many owners keep using him as general business counsel after the first project, bringing him agreements, NDAs, and one-off contract needs.
- 00:07:18 - He walks through when nested LLC structures can make sense, especially for rental properties or business divisions that need liability separation without multiple tax returns.
- 00:09:16 - Aron explains why judges are often reluctant to dismiss cases on summary judgment and how legal incentives shape what happens before trial.
- 00:10:39 - Craig and Aron discuss why big law firm staffing can burn through budgets fast, especially when multiple attorneys show up to minor calls.
- 00:12:12 - Aron notes that expensive litigation decisions are sometimes driven by escalation pressure, especially when one side designates experts and forces the other side to respond.
- 00:16:31 - He shares one of his core strengths in deal work: helping different personality types move toward agreement without forcing either side into a corner.
- 00:18:09 - Aron explains how he primes hard conversations by broaching issues early, letting facts marinate, and asking for commitment only when the time is right.
- 00:19:49 - Craig connects Aron's approach to a broader principle: people protect their autonomy, and better agreements tend to last longer when people reach conclusions for themselves.
- 00:22:12 - Aron says the best legal results usually come from hiring advisors who match the client's temperament and goals, not just the biggest name or most aggressive style.
- 00:28:30 - How to reach Aron: email aphillips@aphillipslawoffice.com, call (817) 903-1414, connect on LinkedIn, or stop by his office in the Livestock Exchange Building in the Stockyards.
Transcript
[00:00:05 - 00:00:30]
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment in my career.
[00:00:30 - 00:00:51]
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on this show.
[00:00:51 - 00:01:19]
Craig Andrews
Today I want to welcome Aron Phillips. He is an attorney and the founder of the Law Office of Aron Phillips, located in the Stockyards of Fort Worth, Texas. He advises business owners on entity formation, mergers and acquisitions, and commercial real estate. Today, he's joined us to share some practical advice on how to get the legal advice you need.
[00:01:19 - 00:01:21]
Craig Andrews
Aron, welcome.
[00:01:21 - 00:01:24]
Aron Phillips
Hi, Craig. Thank you. Thanks for having me on.
[00:01:24 - 00:01:27]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So,
[00:01:27 - 00:01:29]
Craig Andrews
well, you know, one question I forgot to ask.
[00:01:29 - 00:01:34]
Craig Andrews
Are you in success? Champions? Networking? I know we were introduced by somebody in that, but I can't remember.
[00:01:34 - 00:01:41]
Aron Phillips
I've visited a few groups, but I'm not an official member, so I'm. I'm still hovering around.
[00:01:41 - 00:01:47]
Craig Andrews
Hover less. Come in. The coffee's warm and the environment's right.
[00:01:47 - 00:01:48]
Craig Andrews
Yeah.
[00:01:48 - 00:01:54]
Aron Phillips
It definitely has a lot of good, friendly people. I appreciate what y'all are doing a lot. And I think it's it's got some good folks. So.
[00:01:54 - 00:02:22]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. No, I, I was asking because, you know, I end up having a lot of folks on the podcast that I, I meet in SCN and I was just trying to remember where we are. But when we first talked, you, you know, and you told me that your law office was at the stockyards and like, I thought of one of the side streets or, you know, one of the streets outside the stockyards, but you're you're in the stockyards there, there are cattle that go by your office.
[00:02:22 - 00:02:40]
Aron Phillips
Yeah. My conference room looks out over East Exchange, and there's a cattle drive out front every day. And I have to plan meetings around that sometimes because clients can't get to my office very easily. If it's during one of the cattle drives, which are twice a day, every day. So. Wow. Yeah, I'm right in the middle of it.
[00:02:40 - 00:03:10]
Aron Phillips
Second floor of this building is over 100 years old and used to hold the janitor's closet are old safes that used to hold gold, and they used to have more gold in this building than anywhere. If I remember my history correct from the tour than anywhere else in the world. For about a decade, because the North-South railway from Canada, Mexico ran through here, and the East-West railway from east to west coast ran through here because it's the mountains aren't as tall on the southern end of the Rockies, so it's a little easier to get through New Mexico, Arizona.
[00:03:10 - 00:03:19]
Aron Phillips
And so this was the cross section. And if you wanted livestock, if you wanted horses, they all went by rail. And that all intersected here. And they had to hold the gold somewhere.
[00:03:19 - 00:03:26]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. That's wild. I didn't I certainly didn't know that. That's that's wild.
[00:03:26 - 00:03:27]
Craig Andrews
Do you ever have any,
[00:03:27 - 00:03:28]
Craig Andrews
any clients track,
[00:03:28 - 00:03:30]
Craig Andrews
track in the the office?
[00:03:30 - 00:03:32]
Craig Andrews
Remnants from the cows.
[00:03:32 - 00:03:34]
Aron Phillips
Now, the never tracking remnants for the cows.
[00:03:34 - 00:03:49]
Aron Phillips
But, yeah, their clients definitely appreciate coming down here. Like, if we're doing a closing or something else, because then they can go just down the street and get a nice steak, you know, or get some good Tex-Mex and a margarita and celebrate. So it's a a fun atmosphere in terms of having plenty of good places to eat.
[00:03:49 - 00:03:55]
Aron Phillips
And then I like it because it's not your average. Just go into an office, hit the elevator, go into an LED light room.
[00:03:55 - 00:04:00]
Aron Phillips
It's it's got some character and and I enjoy that now.
[00:04:00 - 00:04:03]
Craig Andrews
I think it's phenomenally cool. I mean, I just,
[00:04:03 - 00:04:08]
Craig Andrews
the whole stockyards area is really neat, and I, you know, I enjoy going there.
[00:04:08 - 00:04:11]
Craig Andrews
Oh. The last time I went there, there were some nutso drivers,
[00:04:12 - 00:04:13]
Craig Andrews
up there.
[00:04:13 - 00:04:31]
Aron Phillips
Yeah. Some people don't recall. I mean, this is regular because it's tourist, so there's a lot of drivers that are driving through it for the first time. So they're they're driving super slow or they try to go the wrong way. They don't realize that these exchanges, both lanes are going the same direction, or this one's the most common, because they don't realize that both plans are going in the same direction.
[00:04:31 - 00:04:40]
Aron Phillips
Or maybe they do, but it's in the back of their head. They'll be in the right lane, and they'll try to left turn out of the right lane and almost hit a car in the left lane.
[00:04:40 - 00:04:42]
Aron Phillips
That probably happens daily.
[00:04:42 - 00:04:47]
Aron Phillips
Now they don't hit usually, you know, 99% of the time one of them stops in time.
[00:04:47 - 00:04:54]
Aron Phillips
But yeah, that's those are pretty common occurrences just because it's their first time and then they might not come back forever.
[00:04:54 - 00:04:59]
Craig Andrews
So how many how many barbecues are at the stockyard?
[00:04:59 - 00:05:02]
Aron Phillips
There's whiskeys and coopers. So to two main ones.
[00:05:02 - 00:05:04]
Craig Andrews
What's your favorite one?
[00:05:04 - 00:05:14]
Aron Phillips
Between the two of them, I like Coopers. It's that pit style barbecue. I like saying I want this much brisket, this much this and that, and then they usually give you a little more. And so you got plenty of meat.
[00:05:14 - 00:05:16]
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
[00:05:16 - 00:05:29]
Craig Andrews
Cooper's was the first barbecue I went to. I went to the one out Llano. I've been to the one at the stockyards. But that was the first time where I felt like I had a true barbecue experience here in Texas. And it was,
[00:05:29 - 00:05:38]
Craig Andrews
you know, I love it. You know, you just sit there and point at meat sitting in the smoker and, and they just, they go for, like, yank it out, you know, cut it and yank it out.
[00:05:38 - 00:05:40]
Aron Phillips
Oh, yeah. Yeah. They just load it up.
[00:05:40 - 00:05:44]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So,
[00:05:44 - 00:05:50]
Craig Andrews
let's talk a little bit about, well, what type of what type of law do you practice?
[00:05:50 - 00:05:53]
Aron Phillips
So I focus primarily on business owners needs.
[00:05:53 - 00:06:09]
Aron Phillips
The reason that most people find me is they're starting a business. So they're starting an LLC for example, or they're buying or selling a business. So they have some sort of merger or acquisition, or they've got a commercial real estate transaction. So they need a lease reviewed, a loan reviewed, or purchase and sale agreement.
[00:06:09 - 00:06:31]
Aron Phillips
So those are the main three kind of avenues that they find me. And then once they do, they'll usually use me as their General Business Council. And I'll review all kinds of agreements, whether it's master service agreements, vendor agreements, drafting an NDA for them for something or some other situation. So I've reviewed a lot of different kinds of stuff and sometimes just created things out of whole cloth because somebody needs something and it's kind of unique.
[00:06:31 - 00:06:35]
Aron Phillips
And, and I figure out how to conceptualize that into a contract.
[00:06:35 - 00:06:37]
Craig Andrews
Yeah.
[00:06:37 - 00:06:43]
Craig Andrews
You know, one of the things that's been on my mind is having like, nested LLCs.
[00:06:43 - 00:06:48]
Craig Andrews
And the thing that always scares me is like, I don't need to I don't need to pay another CPA,
[00:06:48 - 00:06:59]
Craig Andrews
to do a another. Yeah. Another expensive tax return every year. Yeah. I think there's some times where it makes sense to have more than one one LLC.
[00:06:59 - 00:07:18]
Aron Phillips
Yeah. Although it probably is the tax folks that that are able to justify it because it ends up increasing your tax bill more than, more than anything else. So, you know, sometimes if you like, I talked to somebody earlier this week they have multiple properties that they're renting or flipping. So in that situation it can make sense to have multiple LLCs.
[00:07:18 - 00:07:36]
Aron Phillips
And then one top level LLC. And what I'll see there is, you know, and I'm not a CPA and I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night. But what I've what I've heard in terms of the structure, in terms of why that makes sense, is you can have the lower level LLCs as disregarded entities that then roll up.
[00:07:36 - 00:07:39]
Aron Phillips
And so you're just filing one tax return for the holding company.
[00:07:39 - 00:07:49]
Aron Phillips
And then I like it as the attorney because you get the legal liability separation where each property or set of properties is separated from all the other ones. And so that is,
[00:07:49 - 00:08:03]
Aron Phillips
an advantage, I think. And so there are definitely situations where it makes sense if you have the rental property situation or other situations that might be analogous in other business, like sometimes they're subsidiaries in larger businesses with divisions,
[00:08:03 - 00:08:05]
Aron Phillips
where maybe you want to have,
[00:08:05 - 00:08:07]
Aron Phillips
I'll use electrical contracting, for example.
[00:08:07 - 00:08:31]
Aron Phillips
So I've got a client. They're decent size. They do jobs around the United States and they do six and seven figure eight figure contracts. And so they might have different divisions. And so it might make sense to do the structure that I just described, where you have a wholly owned subsidiary of the main company, but this one operates on large industrial.
[00:08:31 - 00:08:50]
Aron Phillips
This one just does data centers, this one just does residential, this one does solar and environmental stuff. And so by having these different divisions, it's easier to track how profitable different lines of business are and stuff because they have separate accounting and maybe bank accounts. But they all roll up and you just do one tax return at the holding company level.
[00:08:50 - 00:08:53]
Aron Phillips
So that's a situation where in my mix that's two.
[00:08:53 - 00:08:57]
Craig Andrews
I didn't know about that. That's fascinating.
[00:08:57 - 00:09:02]
Aron Phillips
Yeah it's yeah it's an interesting rule out there.
[00:09:02 - 00:09:03]
Craig Andrews
Yeah.
[00:09:03 - 00:09:15]
Craig Andrews
Well and you know and I think that's yeah, unfortunately we live in a world where anybody can sue anyone for any reason. And, you know, unless you can get dismissed on summary judgment, your,
[00:09:15 - 00:09:16]
Craig Andrews
Yeah.
[00:09:16 - 00:09:37]
Aron Phillips
And good luck on that, because judges don't like to dismiss things on summary judgment that if they don't dismiss it on summary judgment, they cannot get overturned for that decision. But if they do dismiss it on summary judgment, they can get overturned. If the if the side that got dismissed can say, actually, we had a shred of evidence and if we had gone to trial, we might have won.
[00:09:37 - 00:09:38]
Aron Phillips
So it's it's more.
[00:09:38 - 00:09:40]
Craig Andrews
Difficult that on their record.
[00:09:40 - 00:09:42]
Aron Phillips
Yeah.
[00:09:42 - 00:09:44]
Craig Andrews
I didn't know about that.
[00:09:44 - 00:09:48]
Aron Phillips
Well yeah. Judges think about their record regularly. I mean, take family court.
[00:09:48 - 00:09:56]
Aron Phillips
You know, in family court, a lot of times a lot of hearings are done without any, any court reporter and in some in some other civil courts as well. But,
[00:09:56 - 00:09:59]
Aron Phillips
then there's less stuff on the record for the judge to have that can be overturned.
[00:09:59 - 00:10:00]
Aron Phillips
Right.
[00:10:00 - 00:10:18]
Aron Phillips
Then it's just what were the things that were submitted, you know, and filed and accepted by the court's clerk? And what was the final judgment? And maybe the actual trial has a court reporter, but outside of that, the rest of the hearings and you might have a dozen hearings before trial, might have no court reporter. Wow.
[00:10:18 - 00:10:20]
Aron Phillips
Yeah.
[00:10:20 - 00:10:23]
Craig Andrews
Now, one of the things I've noticed about and I'll say it's,
[00:10:23 - 00:10:29]
Craig Andrews
I see it at large law firms. I haven't seen it small, long law firms, but I call you guys,
[00:10:29 - 00:10:38]
Craig Andrews
pack animals who always travel in packs. You show up at a meeting, there's like, three lawyers there, and. And that would be a small meeting.
[00:10:39 - 00:10:39]
Craig Andrews
Yeah.
[00:10:39 - 00:10:56]
Aron Phillips
Yeah, yeah, I, I had a friend that joked that he gave a $5,000, retainer to one of those large downtown law firms you're talking about. Every time he was on the phone, there was 3 or 4 people, and after 3 or 4 phone calls, the whole retainer was gone, and they hadn't even done anything yet.
[00:10:56 - 00:10:56]
Craig Andrews
Yeah.
[00:10:56 - 00:10:57]
Aron Phillips
You know.
[00:10:57 - 00:11:01]
Craig Andrews
I got pulled into a lawsuit when I first moved to Austin.
[00:11:02 - 00:11:11]
Craig Andrews
The lawsuit was already underway, and they pulled me in as a professional witness, and it included IP theft and, you know, stuff like that.
[00:11:12 - 00:11:12]
Craig Andrews
They,
[00:11:12 - 00:11:14]
Craig Andrews
I got on a call prepping,
[00:11:14 - 00:11:21]
Craig Andrews
you know, just. And there were, there were a minimum of, like, five, six, seven lawyers on the phone.
[00:11:21 - 00:11:23]
Aron Phillips
And it was a call.
[00:11:23 - 00:11:34]
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. And one of them was an attorney that was involved in the intermittent wiper case that, you know, where Ford ripped off somebodys IP on intermittent wipers. You know, it's like a
[00:11:34 - 00:11:40]
Craig Andrews
very famous, very lucrative case. So, you know, you know, his billable hours were pretty high.
[00:11:40 - 00:11:41]
Aron Phillips
Yeah.
[00:11:41 - 00:12:04]
Craig Andrews
And, you know, and we spent an hour and a half, two hours with them asking me questions. And then they had deposition prep for me. And then I got deposed. And they never pulled me into the court. They never pulled me on into the court or put me on the stand. I mean, tens of thousands of dollars just gone.
[00:12:04 - 00:12:12]
Aron Phillips
Yeah, yeah. And sometimes in those situations, it's a strategic decision. You know, I don't do as much litigation, but I've done a couple of cases in one.
[00:12:12 - 00:12:16]
Aron Phillips
For example, we thought about having experts.
[00:12:16 - 00:12:21]
Aron Phillips
We ended up not having any. But the it was an interesting situation,
[00:12:21 - 00:12:37]
Aron Phillips
because it's almost like an escalation game. If the other side designates an expert, you almost have to get an expert, because if you're going to a jury or if you're going to a judge who doesn't know about that specific area of of the world, and this one expert says this is the way it is.
[00:12:37 - 00:12:55]
Aron Phillips
If you don't have somebody on your side that's an expert, you know, that can say no, this is also some other things you need to think about then that could sink your case. And so sometimes it's an escalation game where like if you I don't know if this is the case, but if you were the rebuttal expert, they had you in their back pocket in case the other side decided to put their this forward.
[00:12:55 - 00:13:01]
Aron Phillips
But they never did. So they never needed you, you know. And that may have been the case. I don't know.
[00:13:01 - 00:13:03]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. That's
[00:13:03 - 00:13:07]
Craig Andrews
yeah. I think my favorite IP theft case was,
[00:13:07 - 00:13:18]
Craig Andrews
there was a British photographer that went to India, India, Indonesia and took a picture of a monkey or is actually technically, a cow, but look like a monkey. And,
[00:13:18 - 00:13:28]
Craig Andrews
or he was taking photos. He dropped his camera, the monkey picked up the camera, took the picture, and was like, this awesome picture took a selfie.
[00:13:28 - 00:13:38]
Craig Andrews
And so he started selling the selfie of the monkey. He was British. The picture was taken in Indonesia, in the United States. Peter sued them for,
[00:13:38 - 00:13:40]
Craig Andrews
copyright infringement.
[00:13:40 - 00:13:46]
Craig Andrews
Representing the monkey, because according to copyright law, the,
[00:13:46 - 00:13:52]
Craig Andrews
the art belongs to whoever snapped the picture.
[00:13:52 - 00:13:55]
Aron Phillips
So please tell me Peta lost.
[00:13:55 - 00:14:04]
Craig Andrews
Peta won. I think they've since made some changes to that. But yeah, they successfully argued that it was the monkeys,
[00:14:04 - 00:14:12]
Craig Andrews
intellectual property, and the photographer had not received permission from the monkey to use it.
[00:14:13 - 00:14:21]
Aron Phillips
Yeah, it's it's interesting the kinds of rights that they'll give to certain segments of living things and not other segments of living things.
[00:14:21 - 00:14:27]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. But, you know, I going back to that law firm that,
[00:14:27 - 00:14:29]
Craig Andrews
I ran into, so it was,
[00:14:29 - 00:14:31]
Craig Andrews
Fulbright Jaworski,
[00:14:31 - 00:14:55]
Craig Andrews
was our counsel. And my first encounter with one of their, their members, they that company have been recruiting me for a couple of years. And when when I finally said yes, I was like, well, hey, I have a non-compete, and I hired an attorney on my side and said, last step is you just have to make my attorneys say, yes, turn in your resignation, go take the job and
[00:14:55 - 00:15:00]
Craig Andrews
and so go was really fascinating.
[00:15:00 - 00:15:27]
Craig Andrews
And the company that that was hiring me put a guy named Brian Gregg on the case. And Brian's a very, very it was a very senior partner in Fulbright Jaworski and apparently a national expert in employment law. And he had so much finesse. He had so much finesse, because I'm on a call with him and my attorney, and I hear him say to my attorneys like, hey, if I hear what you're saying, right?
[00:15:27 - 00:15:49]
Craig Andrews
You're saying that there's no severability clause in North Carolina employment contract. So if part of the contract is invalid, the whole thing is invalid. Is that what you're telling me? My attorney hadn't said Jack about that. Or if he did, it's went by so fast. Yeah. My attorney was like, oh yeah. Yeah. That's. Yeah, that's that's right, that's right.
[00:15:49 - 00:15:57]
Craig Andrews
And the thing that I really admired was way Brian navigated that case. He made sure that my attorney didn't come out looking like an idiot.
[00:15:57 - 00:16:02]
Craig Andrews
While basically architecting the strategy to bring me over to the new company.
[00:16:02 - 00:16:27]
Aron Phillips
Yeah, yeah, finesse is an interesting thing. I think some people, some attorneys are better at that and some are worse. It sounds like he was great. Like, you know, I've definitely had attorneys on the other side that are just straight bulldogs. They they get a position, they latch on and they're just not letting go of it. And for me, I'm since I'm not in litigation world as much, most, most of the attorneys I'm dealing with, I feel like at least have some.
[00:16:27 - 00:16:31]
Aron Phillips
But I definitely feel like that's a strength for me. Like I've had a situation where,
[00:16:31 - 00:16:41]
Aron Phillips
like recently, I've got a couple of different business owners that have a transaction, they're selling the business, and it's going to be for tens of millions of dollars, and they they are very different,
[00:16:42 - 00:16:51]
Aron Phillips
in terms of their personality styles. And so one of them is going, hey, we need to close this, you know, next week, tomorrow, if possible, trying to time everything just right.
[00:16:51 - 00:16:57]
Aron Phillips
And the other one is, is a little more like, no, let's make sure we got our I's and cross our t's and, and
[00:16:57 - 00:17:08]
Aron Phillips
and they're there are some other little features within the deal also that are that can cause some conflict between the two of them because even though they've done business together for a long time, they're very different.
[00:17:08 - 00:17:28]
Aron Phillips
And so they the situations, you know, you go into them and I have I even have a colleague that's an attorney and he's like, I can't I can't do that the way that you do it. I would just say, here's the truth. You know, about whatever. Like you're different this way. You're different this way. This is what we need to do.
[00:17:28 - 00:17:52]
Aron Phillips
And I'm like, no, I just sometimes you just stick to your lane a little bit. You notice what other people are doing and you adjust. You adjust what you're doing, but you just try to guide them through and go, I'm not going to force your hand right now. I'm going to let you see where we're going. And I understand, you know, this is a point of consternation for you or this is a point of consternation for you over here.
[00:17:52 - 00:18:02]
Aron Phillips
But rather than forcing people's hands, you know, especially when you're trying to get a deal done, I find don't force the person's hand until you absolutely have to and try to,
[00:18:02 - 00:18:08]
Aron Phillips
butter up the conversation ahead of time. I don't mean butter up in terms of flattery, but prime the conversation is maybe a better way to put it.
[00:18:09 - 00:18:37]
Aron Phillips
You prime the conversation ahead of time by broaching the subject multiple times and laying out some facts without confronting either side. So you let those facts marinate and you let the situation marinate. And so then when you're having that conversation, the fifth or sixth time that's marinated, you've kind of finessed it through several times without confronting them. And now when you finally turn and go, hey, we need a commitment at this point, you know, if this is really going to be an issue, we're not going to be able to do this.
[00:18:37 - 00:18:40]
Aron Phillips
So what do you need to do to make peace with this situation? Or
[00:18:40 - 00:19:04]
Aron Phillips
what do we need to change and then they usually will come up with a pretty logical and rational answer, because they've been they've been able to marinate on it and kind of make peace instead of coming. And so if somebody comes and strong arms them, they feel like they're being forced or backed into a corner that doesn't go well, you know, and, and my colleague has, I think had a couple of times where he's, he's probably done that not trying to force them into a corner.
[00:19:04 - 00:19:08]
Aron Phillips
But then they feel that way and they don't react well to him. And
[00:19:08 - 00:19:20]
Aron Phillips
and he's like, I don't I don't know how you're doing that, man. And for me, I feel like that's definitely a strength in terms of just trying to build some rapport and build some trust as you're going through the process.
[00:19:20 - 00:19:24]
Craig Andrews
Well, and in marketing, you know, the way I play is I talk about autonomy,
[00:19:24 - 00:19:40]
Craig Andrews
whenever, you know, because a lot of marketers sit there and they try boxing into a corner, lot of salespeople try to do that, and they can I believe they can be successful in the short term, but not in the long term. And because people hate having their autonomy taken away.
[00:19:40 - 00:19:49]
Craig Andrews
And I've found that I can get more lasting agreement if I focus on preserving somebody as autonomy. Yeah.
[00:19:49 - 00:19:51]
Aron Phillips
And 100%.
[00:19:51 - 00:19:56]
Craig Andrews
The more they think it's their idea, the longer the agreement lasts.
[00:19:56 - 00:20:07]
Aron Phillips
Yeah. And and even if, you know, sometimes in the course of a deal, you know, and it may be that I'm, I'm not I'm actually not maybe I'm probably not as,
[00:20:07 - 00:20:15]
Aron Phillips
wise as the guy that you just described that was for full right. And Jaworski, who can really make it seem like somebody else's idea. I've not mastered that concept yet.
[00:20:15 - 00:20:30]
Aron Phillips
But even even if you can't quite make it seem like it's their idea, if you can let them come to the conclusions themselves instead of forcing them to agree with you. That also goes a long way, you know, because they feel like they were allowed their dignity, their autonomy.
[00:20:30 - 00:20:41]
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, in something you say, I, I remember another time this was down here in Austin. I was the president of my HOA and
[00:20:41 - 00:20:55]
Craig Andrews
we decided to the board voted to sue the water utility that serviced our neighborhood. I voted against, but I lost the vote. And because I was president, it's my job to execute it.
[00:20:55 - 00:21:03]
Craig Andrews
And so I had to go get an attorney. And there was one guy who was familiar with us. He saw members of our community down in,
[00:21:03 - 00:21:04]
Craig Andrews
City Hall during a down to,
[00:21:04 - 00:21:18]
Craig Andrews
annual meetings or weekly meetings or monthly meetings, whatever it was. And they were always troublemakers. And so when he responded to me, he's like, oh, I'm not sure I have time to take on this case, but there's somebody in my firm that,
[00:21:18 - 00:21:21]
Craig Andrews
that I think would do a fine job.
[00:21:21 - 00:21:23]
Craig Andrews
And I said, well, why don't we meet? And so we met.
[00:21:23 - 00:21:36]
Craig Andrews
And the more I think about it, I think he orchestrated it this way. The guy he was introducing me to just kept talking about, oh, yeah, we're going to swim. We're going to put him up against the wall. We're just going to, you know, we're going to we're going to stick it to him.
[00:21:36 - 00:21:37]
Craig Andrews
And,
[00:21:37 - 00:21:53]
Craig Andrews
and so I sat there and the lesson that I the meeting ended and I called the attorney back and I said, well, I really appreciate you introducing me to this fella. He seems like he wants to fight. I don't want to fight. I want to settle. I want to get this. I want to get this resolved quickly and effectively.
[00:21:53 - 00:22:04]
Craig Andrews
And he's like, all right, I'll represent you. And I think he had done that just to figure out one. I think he wanted to be a bulldog. I don't think that's who he was.
[00:22:04 - 00:22:04]
Aron Phillips
Yeah.
[00:22:04 - 00:22:12]
Craig Andrews
But I think he was trying to figure out if I wanted to be a if I was looking for a bulldog or if I was looking for somebody who could quickly settle.
[00:22:12 - 00:22:33]
Aron Phillips
Yeah. I think that compatibility is huge because, like, I'm not a bulldog, you know, I think you can tell from some of my comments already and I think anybody in any situation, whether they are going into litigation or they're doing a transaction or something else, it's really important to hire advisors that you trust and are in alignment with what you're trying to do and the way you're trying to go about it.
[00:22:33 - 00:22:54]
Aron Phillips
And I've found that generally generates the best results for people, because if you if you had wanted a bulldog and you'd hired him, you would have been frustrated with the pace of things because he'd be trying to settle and trying to give them a chance, maybe, and do this or that. And then on the flip side, if you had hired the Bulldog even though you didn't want to because you went well, he introduced me to this guy.
[00:22:54 - 00:22:56]
Aron Phillips
So that's who I'm going with.
[00:22:56 - 00:23:08]
Aron Phillips
You might have been frustrated with the amount of legal fees you would have paid going through a lawsuit instead of settling. And so, you know, in both cases, making sure you have the right fit is important. And,
[00:23:08 - 00:23:10]
Aron Phillips
and having that trust and rapport is important.
[00:23:10 - 00:23:13]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, if I go back to the attorney that I hired,
[00:23:13 - 00:23:28]
Craig Andrews
when I was leaving the other company and one of them to sort out my contract, it was really funny. I, you know, we got to the point where we got agreement, and I put in my resignation. I gave him a three week notice and and a transition plan.
[00:23:28 - 00:23:39]
Craig Andrews
And we were executing on the transition plan. And one day, you know, of course, I'd lost my, you know, free, free range privileges. So I had to show up in the lobby and wait for somebody just,
[00:23:39 - 00:23:55]
Craig Andrews
escort me to whatever meeting I was going to. Yeah, and wait in the lobby. And one of the general managers from a different division starts walking through the lobby, sees me cross his way out of his path, comes up to me and said, why did you go to them?
[00:23:55 - 00:24:13]
Craig Andrews
And he faked a punch to my face. He stopped, literally like inches from my nose and I was furious. I went ahead and had my meeting. I got back to my house later that day and I drafted a letter. I can write something. I can write reasonable legalese.
[00:24:13 - 00:24:16]
Craig Andrews
And I drafted something and,
[00:24:16 - 00:24:20]
Craig Andrews
and I passed it over to my attorney, who was a master.
[00:24:20 - 00:24:27]
Craig Andrews
I watch what he did. He was handling me. I knew he was handling handling made, but he was doing it so well, I appreciate it. And he said,
[00:24:27 - 00:24:36]
Craig Andrews
he asked me what happened, and I told them and he's like, well, Craig, I've read your letter. He said, it's really good. It's really good. If I didn't know, I'd think a lawyer wrote it.
[00:24:36 - 00:24:37]
Craig Andrews
And,
[00:24:37 - 00:24:56]
Craig Andrews
he told me so when you when you first, when we first talked, you said you wanted to leave. Kicking up as little dust as possible. You just wanted to be a smooth, pleasant thing and said, yeah. He says, that's still the case. I said, yeah, he said, tell you what, let me draft a letter for you.
[00:24:56 - 00:25:04]
Craig Andrews
He said, we're going to get you out there. You're not good. You're going to walk in that building exactly. One more time is to drop off the letter that I'm going to give you. And,
[00:25:04 - 00:25:10]
Craig Andrews
you know, because it's out. Well, you can you don't have to honor your three weeks. Yeah. And,
[00:25:10 - 00:25:12]
Craig Andrews
and so,
[00:25:12 - 00:25:18]
Craig Andrews
yeah, he I appreciated that because he wrote a much nicer letter than mine.
[00:25:18 - 00:25:24]
Craig Andrews
That very nicely said. We're done. Yeah, it was funny. I had meeting.
[00:25:24 - 00:25:26]
Aron Phillips
You're trying to be nice, but we're done.
[00:25:26 - 00:25:34]
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was funny. I had a meeting with my boss that morning. My, you know, direct boss and,
[00:25:34 - 00:25:43]
Craig Andrews
And I called him and I said, hey, I'm not going to meet you at the office. I'll meet you at Panera Bread. And,
[00:25:43 - 00:25:48]
Craig Andrews
he's like, do you still work for me? I said, not really. I said, I'll tell you,
[00:25:48 - 00:25:50]
Craig Andrews
I'll fill you in on that.
[00:25:50 - 00:26:01]
Craig Andrews
And so we sat down and I told them what happened. And, you know, we chatted and, you know, because, you know, my goal again, my goal when the kick up dust, it wasn't I wasn't trying to hurt that company.
[00:26:01 - 00:26:02]
Craig Andrews
Yeah.
[00:26:02 - 00:26:11]
Aron Phillips
But at the same time, you're not going to suffer through more incidents like that one because they didn't have good discretion.
[00:26:11 - 00:26:14]
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that was completely inappropriate.
[00:26:14 - 00:26:32]
Craig Andrews
I, I had something in my letter about dangerous work environment, which, of course, that's actionable. If you if somebody reports a dangerous work environment and the company doesn't do anything that's actionable, and that was one of the things that my attorney said, we probably shouldn't go there. It may be true, but that's that's not bridge you want to cross.
[00:26:32 - 00:26:36]
Aron Phillips
Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense.
[00:26:36 - 00:26:39]
Craig Andrews
But now it ties in with what you're saying. It's,
[00:26:39 - 00:26:46]
Craig Andrews
you know, it's really about finding, you know, the advisors that you can trust in there. I've been blessed that I've dealt with a lot of attorneys.
[00:26:46 - 00:26:50]
Craig Andrews
Except I think Fulbright Jaworski made a ton of money getting a stupid lawsuit.
[00:26:50 - 00:27:05]
Aron Phillips
And so stupid lawsuits make lawyers lots of money, and. And the lawyers will acknowledge that's a stupid lawsuit. They're like, look, like, if you guys would settle or if the other side would settle, we wouldn't have to do this. But we're going to do our job.
[00:27:05 - 00:27:10]
Craig Andrews
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I've been blessed. Most of the attorneys I've run into,
[00:27:10 - 00:27:19]
Craig Andrews
they fit my temperament. I have no desire in to win big legal battles.
[00:27:19 - 00:27:29]
Craig Andrews
You know, I'm just like, it's just life's too short to fight the big fights. You focus on the important ones and, you know, find ways to kind of settle and,
[00:27:29 - 00:27:29]
Craig Andrews
settle.
[00:27:29 - 00:27:32]
Craig Andrews
Well, you know, holding on to what's important.
[00:27:32 - 00:27:45]
Aron Phillips
Yeah. For sure. And I think, like you said, being able to trust the the advisors that you're working with is important. And if they're looking at the big picture the same way that you are, then that can help in those heated moments. You know,
[00:27:45 - 00:27:59]
Aron Phillips
whether it's somebody almost punching you in the face or a deal that is in a crunch period and, and some decisions have to be made, you know, if you have somebody that you trust that's able to talk you through the situation,
[00:27:59 - 00:28:04]
Aron Phillips
it's a lot, I think, better in terms of the results that you're going to get as opposed to,
[00:28:04 - 00:28:07]
Aron Phillips
just hiring somebody because they're high price or because
[00:28:07 - 00:28:23]
Aron Phillips
of, you know, something else. You know, I know I'm sure we can both think of people that sometimes have more money than sense. And they they just want the biggest and best and brightest lawyer without necessarily thinking about that fit. And I think having that fit where whether it can be a trusted advisor is important.
[00:28:23 - 00:28:30]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Why are and this has been amazing. Appreciate you coming on layers and legacies. How can people reach you.
[00:28:30 - 00:28:33]
Aron Phillips
Probably the easiest way is email or phone call.
[00:28:33 - 00:28:38]
Aron Phillips
My email is a Phillips at a Phillips Law office.com, which is a mouthful. I know,
[00:28:39 - 00:28:41]
Aron Phillips
Phillips is with two Ls there,
[00:28:41 - 00:28:48]
Aron Phillips
office number is (817) 903-1414. I'm also, I think, on LinkedIn and,
[00:28:48 - 00:28:53]
Aron Phillips
yeah, you can always come stop by the stockyards. I'm in the second floor in the Livestock Exchange building.
[00:28:53 - 00:29:07]
Craig Andrews
That would be awesome. I'll tell you what. Next time I'm up there, I'll. I'll swing by. I'll let you know in advance and won't pop in, but I'd love this place. Do check it out. Well, Aron, thanks. Thanks again for being on Layers and Legacies.
[00:29:07 - 00:29:15]
Aron Phillips
You're welcome. Thank you for having me. Good talking with you, Craig.
[00:29:15 - 00:29:37]
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to allies4me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this
[00:29:37 - 00:29:39]
Craig Andrews
episode on social media.
[00:29:39 - 00:30:02]
Craig Andrews
Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or posted on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest. Tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.
[00:30:02 - 00:30:10]
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up. Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.
[00:30:10 - 00:30:21]
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to allies4me.com. Or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
