Gary Leeman helps leadership teams break through the ceilings that stall growth. As a Professional EOS Implementer with EOS Worldwide and a former integrator and COO, he brings a practical operator's perspective to the messy moment when a company has outgrown improvisation but has not yet built the structure needed to scale.
In this episode, Gary shares how living in Ireland reshaped his view of pace and culture, why intentional cultures stay recognizable even as companies grow, and where scaling businesses most often go wrong. He explains the EOS idea of "right people, right seats," warns against designing roles around whoever happens to be available, and makes the case that consistency and accountability become essential once a company is ready to scale.
Want to learn more about Gary Leeman's work? Visit his EOS Worldwide profile at https://implementer.eosworldwide.com/gary-leeman/.
Connect with Gary Leeman on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/garyleeman/.
You can also reach Gary directly at gary.leeman@eosworldwide.com or 469-816-4369.
Key Points & Timestamps
- 00:00:51 - Gary Leeman is introduced as an EOS Worldwide leader who helps companies scale past the ceilings that keep them stuck.
- 00:03:00 - Gary explains how an engineering role took him to Ireland, where he ended up living as an expat and absorbing a much different pace of life.
- 00:06:10 - He describes the reverse culture shock of returning from Ireland to New Jersey and how quickly a different environment can reset what feels normal.
- 00:12:15 - Gary argues that intentional cultures tend to stay recognizable over time, while accidental cultures drift in ways leaders often miss.
- 00:17:48 - He introduces one of his core concepts: right people, right seats — people who fit the culture and can consistently perform the role.
- 00:22:25 - A common growth mistake: building jobs around whoever is available instead of clearly defining the seat the business actually needs.
- 00:25:46 - Gary explains why startup flexibility is useful early, but structure and clearly defined success become essential once a company is truly scaling.
- 00:28:36 - Visionary founders often need an integrator or strong second-in-command to turn ideas into repeatable execution.
- 00:29:55 - Gary summarizes his EOS work around three outcomes: vision, traction, and healthy leadership teams.
- 00:31:33 - How to reach Gary: his EOS Worldwide microsite, LinkedIn, email, and direct phone number.
Transcript
[00:00:05 - 00:00:30]
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment in my career.
[00:00:30 - 00:00:51]
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on this show.
[00:00:51 - 00:00:59]
Craig Andrews
Today I want to welcome Gary Leeman. He is with EOS Worldwide. Some of you know what that means. Some of you do not.
[00:00:59 - 00:01:03]
Craig Andrews
But basically, Gary helps companies scale,
[00:01:03 - 00:01:15]
Craig Andrews
beyond ceilings that keep them stuck. Businesses reach a point where they grow, grow, grow, and then all of a sudden, things break. I mean, I don't understand why because they're doing more of everything that made them successful.
[00:01:15 - 00:01:29]
Craig Andrews
But there are a few things that are missing. Gary helps folks identify those missing pieces and put the systems in place, and then continue to scale and be one of the rare, rare companies that scales beyond,
[00:01:29 - 00:01:32]
Craig Andrews
10 million or even more in revenue.
[00:01:32 - 00:01:42]
Gary Leeman
Gary, welcome. Wow. Craig. Thank you. Just right off the top of your head. You nailed us. That's impressive. Yeah, well, that was so.
[00:01:42 - 00:01:45]
Craig Andrews
Normally, I was telling you when we were in the green room, I was telling you that,
[00:01:45 - 00:01:53]
Craig Andrews
my tech was failing me. And so I have an agent that spurs to help draft the intros. Oh, okay. And,
[00:01:53 - 00:01:54]
Craig Andrews
Yeah, I was telling you also,
[00:01:54 - 00:02:01]
Craig Andrews
you know, people have been talking about these all the time as agents. It's like, you know, you put these in, you have like a little Junior Einstein working for you.
[00:02:01 - 00:02:18]
Craig Andrews
I put it in, I was like, geez, I got Jeff Spicoli and and Spicoli showed up this morning. I was like, dude, I was like, don't dude, give me what I want. But I don't know where to find him. Like every place you found it before. Oh, yeah.
[00:02:18 - 00:02:25]
Gary Leeman
And so I just got to be Mr. Hand. You just got to give him a little special attention. Jeff Spicoli got it once he stopped smoking.
[00:02:25 - 00:02:29]
Craig Andrews
Yeah, exactly. But it's,
[00:02:29 - 00:02:39]
Craig Andrews
So anyway, I was like, all right, well, Craig, you're just going to have to wing it. And fortunately, I know enough about what you do that hopefully I'm wrong when it. Well.
[00:02:39 - 00:02:45]
Gary Leeman
You want it. Well, you want it well. So thank you for that intro. Yeah. Hey, it's great to be here. I'm excited for this.
[00:02:46 - 00:02:49]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Yeah. So,
[00:02:49 - 00:02:49]
Craig Andrews
but the,
[00:02:49 - 00:02:53]
Craig Andrews
the other thing we were talking about,
[00:02:53 - 00:03:00]
Craig Andrews
and I wanted to explore this more, and this is you went over and you lived in Ireland for years. First off, what took you to Ireland?
[00:03:00 - 00:03:04]
Gary Leeman
So just really fortunate, I when I graduated,
[00:03:04 - 00:03:11]
Gary Leeman
with my engineering degree, I ended up getting a job with the medical products company, and they were global. And they had a,
[00:03:11 - 00:03:20]
Gary Leeman
a dialyzer factory, an artificial kidney factory in Dublin, just outside of Dublin. And I was sent over to do a project, and one thing led to another.
[00:03:20 - 00:03:24]
Gary Leeman
And next thing you know, I'm. I'm over there. I was an expat,
[00:03:24 - 00:03:28]
Gary Leeman
helping them out with a particular issue they had. So I'm kind of like,
[00:03:28 - 00:03:39]
Gary Leeman
you know, a corporate guy on a sweet deal living in Ireland. And I grew up in New Jersey, right side outside of New York City. And when you grow up in an environment, it's your normal.
[00:03:39 - 00:03:41]
Gary Leeman
I go to Ireland and
[00:03:41 - 00:04:07]
Gary Leeman
I mean, I just have this year of living wonderfully, right? Just making friends, you know, working. And then, you know, in the pub going to, you know, going to Gaelic football matches and just really living life. And unfortunately, you know, all good things come to an end. And the visa expires and it's time to come home and, you know, get back to the corporate gig and I get back to Jersey.
[00:04:07 - 00:04:21]
Craig Andrews
You know, real quick while you're ever in Ireland. Yeah. And like you're talking about adjusting to them, sitting there picturing you saying, hey would you mind saying that again a little bit slower and in English this time.
[00:04:21 - 00:04:54]
Gary Leeman
So being in Ireland, they are witty. It took me six months. Sitting, by the way, is one of the coolest things is they break for tea. You're in the factory, sitting there in the office with the other engineers, and you know, there's accountants and there's the whole factory running and a whistle goes up like 1015 in the morning and everybody stops what they're doing, and you line up in the cafeteria and you get your cup of tea, packet crisps, Cadbury chocolate bar and every one in the whole factory is sitting there for tea.
[00:04:54 - 00:05:16]
Gary Leeman
Time for break. And I'm sitting there just trying to get a word. In six months, just the banter is zipping all over the place. I can't catch up by the time I think it's something to say. They're already three comments. It's it's an amazing, you know, culture. They're they're gift of the gab, so to speak. You really pick it up.
[00:05:16 - 00:05:43]
Gary Leeman
That's the best time during that period sitting there, one of the other guys from corporate I won't I won't name names. Big loud cackle. And the guys at my table cringe. And this guy Arthur goes, oh, the F and yank! And everyone kind of turned and looked at me.
[00:05:43 - 00:05:54]
Gary Leeman
Yeah, because I was, you know, I was also a yank. And I was like, no, you're a good one. And it was like, all right, I, I'm okay. I've been accepted here. Right? I'm not viewed as is that arrogant yank.
[00:05:54 - 00:05:58]
Gary Leeman
So no, it was a great it was a great time. And,
[00:05:58 - 00:06:01]
Gary Leeman
yeah, I was young, just out of school, and,
[00:06:02 - 00:06:10]
Gary Leeman
I just didn't recognize how much I had accustomed to a different way of life, you know?
[00:06:10 - 00:06:31]
Gary Leeman
So I come back to New Jersey, and I remember I was like, you know, gosh, I'm. I'm home a couple days, and dad and I are in the car. We had to go to Home Depot to get something for my sister's new house. And like, there's honking in a parking lot at 10 a.m. on a Tuesday. And I'm just like, you know, everyone here is insane, right?
[00:06:31 - 00:06:52]
Gary Leeman
You're all nuts. I can't live like this anymore. You just don't understand how intense the New York City area can be, especially if you're just used to it. So I just had this real kind of knee jerk. Oh, I can't live like this moment. And so I just decided, right, I'm going to go someplace other than New Jersey for a while.
[00:06:52 - 00:07:03]
Gary Leeman
Ended up, ended up landing in Seattle. And then next thing you know, six months later, I fall in love with the Seattle. And 20 years go by and boom, like in a blink of an eye.
[00:07:03 - 00:07:11]
Gary Leeman
That was that was like 94 through 2015. And then I moved to Texas,
[00:07:11 - 00:07:14]
Gary Leeman
about 11 years ago. And I've been I've been in the Dallas area since,
[00:07:15 - 00:07:18]
Gary Leeman
but yeah, reverse culture shock is an interesting thing to experience.
[00:07:18 - 00:07:40]
Gary Leeman
People talk about going to a different country and kind of having the culture shock because it's so different. There. Ireland never did that to me because everything was just it made sense to me and it was calmer and slower. So you come off the boil, so to speak, and then they throw you back in the boiling water and you really notice it.
[00:07:40 - 00:07:52]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. You know, and that's interesting. You know, as you were talking about that, one of the things that hit me was, you know, in the greater New York area was the recipient of a lot of Irish immigrants.
[00:07:52 - 00:07:54]
Gary Leeman
Oh, gosh. Yeah.
[00:07:54 - 00:07:59]
Craig Andrews
But yeah, New York, it's just like a frenetic pace.
[00:07:59 - 00:08:00]
Gary Leeman
Absolutely, of.
[00:08:00 - 00:08:02]
Craig Andrews
Getting things done.
[00:08:02 - 00:08:05]
Craig Andrews
That's interesting. I,
[00:08:05 - 00:08:11]
Craig Andrews
you know, one of the times I came back, actually, this was first time I came back from Japan, my,
[00:08:11 - 00:08:21]
Craig Andrews
my brother picked me up at the airport and he said, hey, you haven't been driving for a year. Why don't you. Why don't you take the keys and drive? And this is like, in the, in the,
[00:08:22 - 00:08:26]
Craig Andrews
DC Baltimore area, you know, with notoriously thick.
[00:08:26 - 00:08:28]
Gary Leeman
And they were on the other side, right.
[00:08:28 - 00:08:36]
Craig Andrews
Well, and that's what I'm thinking. I was like, I was like, Brian, I think this is a good idea. I'm jetlagged, I'm tired. I'm used to driving on the other side of the road.
[00:08:36 - 00:08:37]
Craig Andrews
And,
[00:08:37 - 00:08:48]
Craig Andrews
I was like, no, no, no, no, no, I insist. And so we get out on the roads around DC and Baltimore and I'm doing like 45mph.
[00:08:48 - 00:09:05]
Craig Andrews
And it's not because I was trying to go slow, but the speed limits. Yeah, I'm slower in Japan. So I was just driving what felt normal, and I looked down and realized I was doing 45. And I'm on one of these roads around DC where that was. That was not welcome behavior. And,
[00:09:05 - 00:09:11]
Craig Andrews
and, and so I'd speed up and then within ten minutes I'm back to 145.
[00:09:11 - 00:09:13]
Craig Andrews
And the thing that finally convinced him was,
[00:09:13 - 00:09:29]
Craig Andrews
we were we were going in to some business park. I forget why, but we were pulling into some business park, and it had, like, two lanes and two lanes out. And so I start pulling in,
[00:09:29 - 00:09:37]
Craig Andrews
to the lanes. He's like, no, no, no, the right lane. Oh, yeah. Going in the far left lane, one lane over to the second left lane.
[00:09:37 - 00:09:49]
Craig Andrews
And he finally grabs the steering wheel to pull me all the way over. And he realizes that was when he was like, hey, I'll be happy to drive if you want. I was like, I think that's a capital idea.
[00:09:49 - 00:10:11]
Gary Leeman
It's it's actually it's that left turn. Ireland is is on the other side. Right. It's like England and it's the left turn that really gets you. Yeah. Adjusting in the left term really gets you when you're when you're switching back and forth I mean, it just it just, you know, it's when you were sharing that story. It just speaks to kind of ultimately how adaptable the human is.
[00:10:11 - 00:10:33]
Gary Leeman
We adapt. Right. Whatever that situation we're in, it just eventually becomes our normal. We just get used to it. We acclimate. It's the sudden change that can be unsettling. But like, you know, you, you probably think to yourself when you move to Japan, like, I'm not going to start driving slow, like, you know, that's built in, but now you're right.
[00:10:33 - 00:10:38]
Gary Leeman
It's like going in hot weather, cold weather. Your blood thickens, are at things right. We adapt.
[00:10:38 - 00:10:43]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well, in in Japan, it's not like you have an option to drive fast unless you went mow down the car in front of you.
[00:10:43 - 00:10:45]
Gary Leeman
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.
[00:10:45 - 00:10:56]
Craig Andrews
I mean, because roads are packed, remember, they're staying on the staying on the proper side of the road in Japan was easy because it was instant death. If you go on the wrong side.
[00:10:56 - 00:11:01]
Gary Leeman
Yeah. So you never find those. The people who made those mistakes are no longer existing. Right? Right.
[00:11:01 - 00:11:17]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. But you know, it's it's interesting. And I, you know, I shared with you in the green room other ways that, you know, coming back to the US, you know, I lived in Japan three different times and coming back to the US,
[00:11:17 - 00:11:24]
Craig Andrews
even after being gone for a year, so much changed. And, you know, in many ways I was like, oh my goodness, my country.
[00:11:24 - 00:11:28]
Craig Andrews
It's not who I remember it being. And,
[00:11:29 - 00:11:55]
Craig Andrews
and the thing that struck me was, well, if if there can be that much culture shock just being out of your country for one year, what happens to a business culture over a year? I mean, when you're in it, you don't notice the change when you leave it, and then you come back and you see the change and and,
[00:11:55 - 00:11:56]
Gary Leeman
Yeah, that's interesting.
[00:11:56 - 00:12:00]
Craig Andrews
I know this is how left field. I know you didn't prepare for this question, but,
[00:12:00 - 00:12:15]
Craig Andrews
I'm wondering, you know, I have to believe that company cultures are changing on similar trajectories, but we just don't notice them when we're in them. But they have noticeable impacts.
[00:12:15 - 00:12:37]
Gary Leeman
So that's a very interesting observation. I think that companies with an intentional culture, the culture probably doesn't shift if it's intentional. Oftentimes. So I work Starbucks corporate amazing company in so many ways.
[00:12:37 - 00:12:37]
Craig Andrews
Yeah.
[00:12:37 - 00:13:03]
Gary Leeman
We had a lot of people that would leave. They would take an opportunity with T-Mobile or Microsoft or what have you. They would come back. A lot of them would come back. Right? Grass is always greener. And there was something really compelling about the Starbucks culture wasn't perfect. Yeah, but it's surprising how many people, when they returned would say like, man, nothing really changes, does it?
[00:13:03 - 00:13:24]
Gary Leeman
I'm like, oh no, no, oh, all of our problems are still our problems. We don't fix any of those. Right. But but the culture was very intentional, right? So even the bad stuff sticks around. I think innovative companies are companies that are figuring it out. Like, you can come back in and you wouldn't even recognize the place, right?
[00:13:24 - 00:13:27]
Gary Leeman
Good or bad, you wouldn't recognize the place.
[00:13:27 - 00:13:38]
Gary Leeman
But I think intentional cultures, if you get it right, you probably wouldn't. You probably could return five years later and just hit the ground running and go right?
[00:13:39 - 00:13:47]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. I wonder if I wonder if the edict at Meta or Facebook. Is still to move fast and break things.
[00:13:47 - 00:13:48]
Gary Leeman
Yeah.
[00:13:48 - 00:13:54]
Craig Andrews
I wonder if growth broke that in their culture because that was part of their early culture.
[00:13:54 - 00:14:17]
Gary Leeman
Yeah. Yeah. It's so I mean here's the at some point like innovation and this was something that Starbucks too I mean Howard was very, very, you know, innovation focused. I mean it was an innovative company even though I was like, it was a coffee company. No, he was constantly changing things and innovating. At some point you reach scale and it becomes very difficult.
[00:14:17 - 00:14:38]
Gary Leeman
You know, Howard's idea like, I want to see a soda dispenser on every counter. He used to be able to pull that off when there was a thousand stores, but when there's 45,000 globally, it's a totally different thing to be like, yeah, well, we'll make that happen next week, right? It's just like next to impossible to move at the speed, you know, when you get bigger.
[00:14:38 - 00:15:06]
Gary Leeman
So I don't know, you know, I don't know meta well enough. But I'm sure at some point that's when you kind of have to break off and have like skunkworks or, you know, divisions for innovation because just the, just the scale of an operation going it at at speed, you know, making making significant changes and expecting them to just click and move over, I don't know, that's near impossible.
[00:15:06 - 00:15:15]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. When you know, another company it's going to be interesting to watch is Apple, you know, with Tim Cook stepping in and John Ternus,
[00:15:15 - 00:15:16]
Craig Andrews
you know Apple's definitely not
[00:15:16 - 00:15:32]
Craig Andrews
the company that Steve Jobs left. They you know they haven't they haven't they went from a, you know like a ten year streak of innovation after innovation after innovation to they're a lot more profitable but
[00:15:32 - 00:15:34]
Craig Andrews
also a lot less innovative.
[00:15:34 - 00:15:47]
Gary Leeman
Is it interesting? Like the stock didn't seem to suffer everyone. There was doom and gloom when Tim came in. But I think you're right. I don't you know, there hasn't been that next groundbreaking thing, right? IPod.
[00:15:47 - 00:15:55]
Gary Leeman
IPhone, iPad. And now, you know, what's the last brand new product they came out with, right.
[00:15:55 - 00:15:55]
Gary Leeman
Division.
[00:15:55 - 00:16:00]
Craig Andrews
Like which which I think they conveniently have amnesia over.
[00:16:00 - 00:16:12]
Gary Leeman
We like to forget about that. It's tough. I mean, it's tough. It's lightning in a bottle. How many times in a row Steve pulled that off? It's crazy. Yeah, right. Literally world changing technologies. Right.
[00:16:12 - 00:16:20]
Craig Andrews
Well, it'd be really interesting to see, you know, I've heard mixed critique of the John Ternus, the upcoming CEO.
[00:16:20 - 00:16:28]
Craig Andrews
You know, the positive is he's a product guy. And maybe that will turn Apple back into a product company where they're innovating new products.
[00:16:28 - 00:16:44]
Craig Andrews
The downside is that John hadn't led any innovative product development that, he's basically taken what's out there and just made it make copies of it, you know, the the next generation iPad, the next generation iPhone.
[00:16:44 - 00:17:10]
Craig Andrews
But. Well, so let's go back to this whole thing about about culture, because the, you know, when somebody starts company, maybe it's themselves and 1 or 2 of their buddies, maybe it's themself. They have some idea, they grow it to a point and then they start hiring people, some good hires, some bad hires.
[00:17:10 - 00:17:14]
Craig Andrews
But I hear story after story of folks just hitting these ceilings.
[00:17:14 - 00:17:29]
Craig Andrews
They start growing and they had just this amazing growth. And then things go wonky. You know, revenue goes up, profits go down. Revenues stay flat. Hiring goes up.
[00:17:29 - 00:17:32]
Craig Andrews
The profits go way down.
[00:17:32 - 00:17:42]
Craig Andrews
What you know, what are some of the kind of like the critical break points that you see company is hitting as they're going along this path.
[00:17:42 - 00:17:48]
Gary Leeman
Yeah. Yeah it's a great question.
[00:17:48 - 00:17:52]
Gary Leeman
I teach this concept of right people right seats. So like, there's,
[00:17:52 - 00:18:11]
Gary Leeman
10,000 books written about people, performance management, leadership. If you really boil it down, do you have the right people? Do they fit your culture to to know that and to the to be able to answer that question, you got to know what your culture is, right?
[00:18:11 - 00:18:34]
Gary Leeman
And then are they in the right seats? Right. So did you define the role you need them to fill, and do they have the ability to consistently perform in that role? Really, if you break it down, do these people fit the culture we're trying to establish or have established and can they do the job? Have we defined the job and can they do it?
[00:18:34 - 00:19:01]
Gary Leeman
Simple. So here's what I see often. Cultures happen accidentally. So you hire someone you think is like you that'll fit in. And sometimes you're right and sometimes you're wrong because you haven't really defined it. And when I walk like leadership teams through a discovery process, not a development, you don't create core values that sound good, that you'd like to have.
[00:19:01 - 00:19:28]
Gary Leeman
You'll literally go inside, look inside. We call it's like what you reek of as a company, your actual values. What makes a great employee for your unique organization? When you bring somebody through a discovery process, it's amazing how many times at the end when we align, here's here's our actual values. It's amazing how many times, like the light bulb goes off and seems like they finally put the finger on this particular person problem, right?
[00:19:28 - 00:19:48]
Gary Leeman
This person that has rubbed them the wrong way just doesn't seem to be working out. It just it's a light bulb moment. Like I get it now. They don't take ownership. It's the way we define ownership is when you make a mistake, you're the first person to admit it and you know you're open to the feedback and you fix it and you learn, you move on.
[00:19:48 - 00:20:21]
Gary Leeman
And this person just won't admit they're ever wrong. They're great. We love them all other ways. But that's the problem, right? as an example. And it just is super clarifying. So I see a lot of times if you don't go in really understanding your culture and hire against it, somebody on paper could look great amiss. Like that can be super critical and it can it can kind of like really bug you for a long time when you can't put your finger on it.
[00:20:21 - 00:20:41]
Gary Leeman
So what you're doing, you're you're kind of slowly bleeding. There's this person's not quite right and you can't really define why. And so you suffer. And boy, you build a few of those into the organization and everybody starts to degrade. So that's a that's one big area. The other one.
[00:20:41 - 00:20:54]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Before you go there for me that's an integrity issue. You know, I've actually written into our company manual that we will own our failures as much as we own our successes.
[00:20:54 - 00:21:15]
Gary Leeman
Perfect. So for example, that would be how you would define how that shows up for the people you want in your company. Right through. Yeah, through explaining integrity and and be careful like integrity is one of those generic sounding core values. So I love the fact that you actually then can explain it. Here's what I mean by integrity.
[00:21:15 - 00:21:38]
Gary Leeman
That's super important when you say like, you know, hard working and professional and integrity, it's yeah, you want everybody else says the same thing. So I love how you defined it, because it means something that, by the way, when you share that people that don't have that value, they kind of self-select out, especially if you truly own it.
[00:21:38 - 00:21:56]
Gary Leeman
Like this is who we are. So by the way, if you're not going to enjoy hanging out here and working here because everybody here, this is how they show up. So if you're real clear with that, when you're hiring, people take that as a strong signal. Like maybe this isn't a place for me. Maybe I'm not going to enjoy being here.
[00:21:56 - 00:22:25]
Gary Leeman
So values but doing it the right way, that that's a big thing. I see a lot that's holding people back. The other one is this concept of right, see often as you're growing, especially when you're smaller and growing, you tend to design jobs around people. As you grow, you tend to be like, hey, you know, I hired this person to be my bookkeeper.
[00:22:25 - 00:22:44]
Gary Leeman
I also need to do some budgeting. So I'm going to ask you to do some budgeting because it seems to fit. That's related to, you know, the books accounting. Right. That person may have no experience or background in budgeting. Right. You have a you have somebody who does some scheduling for you. Now all of a sudden you're like, you know what we need to do?
[00:22:44 - 00:23:10]
Gary Leeman
We have to call our old customers. So we kind of need an inside sales rep to make calls. And you're taking this person, you know. Well, in between scheduling, they should just start calling. It makes sense. You got a body, you have another need. Well, if you were to design that seat and really ask who would be great at making, you know, customer retention, follow up sales calls versus who would be great at scheduling work?
[00:23:10 - 00:23:48]
Gary Leeman
Vastly different people, right? Ones, very detail oriented ones. Very, you know, just leave me alone. Let me follow the process. And the salesperson is just eager to talk and churn numbers and get their bonuses. But we we lose that. We're like, I got I got this new need, I'm paying this person. Let's add this duty. All the sudden you have a whole organization, really, of people with these kind of grab bag job titles doing whatever it, you know, everybody in a small growing company wants to pitch in, you know, willing to multitask, want to do, you know, wear many hats, take on duties.
[00:23:48 - 00:24:02]
Gary Leeman
Right. It's great that flexibility, that eagerness that turns bad real quick if you're not careful. So you have to be intentional about what you need a role to perform and hire against that.
[00:24:02 - 00:24:09]
Craig Andrews
You know it. It ties into something that discussion we were having in the green room, by the.
[00:24:09 - 00:24:12]
Gary Leeman
Way, the shrimp in the green room. Fantastic. Oh that's.
[00:24:12 - 00:24:13]
Craig Andrews
Awesome.
[00:24:14 - 00:24:18]
Craig Andrews
But the you know, the people I tend to hire are self-directed people.
[00:24:18 - 00:24:22]
Craig Andrews
Somebody working for me right now, her name's Elena.
[00:24:22 - 00:24:34]
Craig Andrews
Her unique. She was born in St. Petersburg, Russia, and at age 13, she moved to California. She's going to a new school, making new friends, speaking a new language in a new country.
[00:24:34 - 00:24:45]
Craig Andrews
Everything in her life. When topsy turvy at age 13, and she figured out her way through it and she's amazing. And so she's some of my I can throw,
[00:24:45 - 00:25:05]
Craig Andrews
unstructured tasks at she takes initiative. She's, you know, does all these things. These are the people that I hire. And I told you that I've recently spun up my autonomous agent, and I've hit, I think some of the barriers that you help people fix, I realize, you know, I referred my agent is Spicoli.
[00:25:05 - 00:25:16]
Craig Andrews
You know, he's like, dude. And I realized I'm trying to talk to Spicoli the way I would talk to Elena. Hey, Elena. There's a problem over here. Can you figure out what it is? And fix it?
[00:25:16 - 00:25:18]
Gary Leeman
Oh, interesting.
[00:25:18 - 00:25:25]
Craig Andrews
And Coley sitting there like, hey, man, I need, like, some definition, and I need,
[00:25:25 - 00:25:33]
Craig Andrews
I don't know what you want me to do. And so it's helped me realize,
[00:25:33 - 00:25:46]
Craig Andrews
before scaling, the more people and just trying to get the agents to do what I need them to do, I'm missing a ton of structure that I need in place to scale successfully.
[00:25:46 - 00:26:11]
Gary Leeman
So I think you've hit it. It's the the threshold I want. I want the entrepreneurs out there, the startup guys out there to take this with the grain of salt when it's a team of three, when it's a team of seven. Yes, you need people who. Right. Because you can't predict everything you don't know what's coming. You haven't yet built out the systems for scale and consistency because you're still adjusting.
[00:26:11 - 00:26:31]
Gary Leeman
You might even still be innovating. You might be moving from like, hey, we're going to do a pure SAS product to, hey, we're going to use SAS internally to develop a service like so your team's got to be able to, you know, be nimble and flex like that. But once you hit that moment where you're like, we now have our product and our market defined and now it's time to scale.
[00:26:31 - 00:26:55]
Gary Leeman
That's when the leaders need to start to go. Consistency is the key to scale. Throwing this concept out that everyone's going to just keep figuring it out. We'll just throw out. We'll throw bodies in the organization and they'll figure out what they need to do. That's that's kind of a big leadership failure. Often once you get to a certain size and organization when people are not succeeding.
[00:26:55 - 00:27:21]
Gary Leeman
I can't tell you how many times it's it's the leader failed to define what was needed. People want to succeed. People want to do their job well. If we don't define what that is, what their job is, and what success looks like on the job, how can we blame them? Right? So it's up to us as leaders who are growing company when we hit the scale, when we're ready to scale, that we have to take the moment and truly ask, what's the right structure?
[00:27:21 - 00:27:49]
Gary Leeman
What are the roles needed, what do I need that role to perform? And then who's right? Who's right for that seat? Who can do that seat? Well, you can't look around and just keep asking people to flex and move it. It just doesn't work at a certain point early stage, you need it. And this is, I think, I think the struggle that some entrepreneurs, when it's time to be that CEO, this is where they kind of hit that wall.
[00:27:50 - 00:28:08]
Gary Leeman
Some of them naturally kind of get it and they're like, oh, I only dealt with that chaos to get the business started. And now I want structure and I'm comfortable being CEO. Other entrepreneurs, man, they just know okay, great. Find a leader who can run your company and go innovate again. You know, go do some other big idea.
[00:28:09 - 00:28:13]
Gary Leeman
Great. That's who you are right? Recognize that in yourself too.
[00:28:13 - 00:28:26]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And I think the Mark Zuckerberg's and the Bill gates of the world or, you know, the the and the Michael Dell's of the world are just the big anomalies. And they're able to make that transition that they.
[00:28:26 - 00:28:35]
Gary Leeman
They're but they also think about their first lieutenant or their second in command, what we would call an integrator.
[00:28:35 - 00:28:36]
Craig Andrews
Yeah.
[00:28:36 - 00:28:57]
Gary Leeman
We don't necessarily give credit right, to the to the Wozniak's and the bombers and and the I think Sandberg's right. We don't give credit to those people who are taking that idea that innovation and actually then making it, you know, bringing it to market and executing and driving
[00:28:57 - 00:29:04]
Gary Leeman
the business forward. So it looks like the, you know, Bill Gates or Zuckerberg is one of these visionaries, right?
[00:29:04 - 00:29:24]
Gary Leeman
That right that can run a successful company. And we're not we're not we're gonna there's my back. I saw an interview with Bezos, and Bezos made it real clear that if he didn't have the people on his team to kind of ask the question, great idea. How are we going to do it? He wouldn't have. He wouldn't have succeeded.
[00:29:24 - 00:29:30]
Gary Leeman
He didn't know how to do it. He had the idea. Yeah, I want to be able to deliver everything for free overnight.
[00:29:30 - 00:29:31]
Craig Andrews
Yeah.
[00:29:31 - 00:29:36]
Gary Leeman
Now he didn't figure out how to do it. He had people who figured out how to do that.
[00:29:36 - 00:29:38]
Craig Andrews
Let's wait. Let's let's wrap up with this.
[00:29:38 - 00:29:44]
Craig Andrews
How do you help people build these systems and put this in place?
[00:29:44 - 00:29:52]
Gary Leeman
Oh, well, that's a. That's a four hour dissertation or a three minute elevator.
[00:29:52 - 00:29:55]
Gary Leeman
So ultimately, what I do is an implementer.
[00:29:55 - 00:30:17]
Gary Leeman
Craig, is I bring a complete system of simple tools. Right. They're proven, practical tools that helps my clients achieve three things we call vision traction, healthy. Okay, vision from the standpoint of I first work with an owner and a leadership team to get them 100% on the same page with where they're going and how they plan to get their traction means I
[00:30:17 - 00:30:20]
Gary Leeman
help create real discipline and accountability.
[00:30:20 - 00:30:58]
Gary Leeman
So everywhere you look, your vision is being executed really well and then healthy means I work with leadership teams to create a healthy, functional, cohesive leadership team because sometimes even great leaders don't do well as a team. So when I help a company implement EOS, that's simple. Complete system of practical tools. I add the kind of structure, accountability, clarity of vision, tracking opponents, you know, the day in, day out things, the inglorious things, but absolutely necessary for scale.
[00:30:58 - 00:31:03]
Gary Leeman
Really, that helps them break through those ceilings and take it to the next level.
[00:31:03 - 00:31:05]
Craig Andrews
Wow. Well,
[00:31:05 - 00:31:07]
Craig Andrews
you know, I'm in a mastermind with a,
[00:31:07 - 00:31:12]
Craig Andrews
with an integrator, and,
[00:31:12 - 00:31:19]
Craig Andrews
he's helped me tremendously, and he. And I'm not even the client, you know, just the just getting, like, the first shavings,
[00:31:19 - 00:31:21]
Craig Andrews
of the ice,
[00:31:21 - 00:31:30]
Craig Andrews
from his the questions. It's been absolutely transformative for my business. I can't imagine what it would mean to have somebody like you full time.
[00:31:30 - 00:31:33]
Craig Andrews
How can folks reach you?
[00:31:33 - 00:31:34]
Gary Leeman
Oh, yeah. I'm
[00:31:34 - 00:31:36]
Gary Leeman
happy to share,
[00:31:36 - 00:31:38]
Gary Leeman
my email. They can call me. They can email me.
[00:31:38 - 00:31:41]
Gary Leeman
I just love conversations with anybody.
[00:31:41 - 00:31:44]
Gary Leeman
If there's a question you have or a problem you want to work through,
[00:31:44 - 00:31:48]
Gary Leeman
happy to talk any time. I'll share my website with you.
[00:31:48 - 00:31:51]
Gary Leeman
Yep. You can do it with your friends.
[00:31:51 - 00:31:56]
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So help. And you're on LinkedIn?
[00:31:56 - 00:31:57]
Gary Leeman
Absolutely.
[00:31:57 - 00:32:03]
Craig Andrews
Okay, so Gary Leeman on LinkedIn. And then what's your website? Is that the EOS website or anything?
[00:32:03 - 00:32:06]
Gary Leeman
Yeah, it's it's my it's my microsite on EOS. It's
[00:32:06 - 00:32:09]
Gary Leeman
Oh gosh. Gary. Well
[00:32:09 - 00:32:14]
Gary Leeman
I, I didn't I didn't memorize the URL, but I'm sure it was there, but. Yeah. So it's, it's,
[00:32:14 - 00:32:16]
Gary Leeman
the EOS website.
[00:32:16 - 00:32:19]
Craig Andrews
We'll have it in the show notes. Okay. Gary, thanks for
[00:32:19 - 00:32:20]
Craig Andrews
coming on Leaders and Legacies.
[00:32:20 - 00:32:31]
Gary Leeman
Matt. Thanks for having me. Is is always great talking to you. I love the conversation. Craig. Thank you.
[00:32:31 - 00:32:53]
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to allies4me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this
[00:32:53 - 00:32:54]
Craig Andrews
episode on social media.
[00:32:54 - 00:33:18]
Craig Andrews
Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend, or post it on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest, tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag leaders and legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content to make sure you don't miss anything.
[00:33:18 - 00:33:26]
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up. Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me.
[00:33:26 - 00:33:36]
Craig Andrews
It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to allies4me.com or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
