Business owners face a costly tension when planning an eventual exit: the decisions that may shape taxes and deal outcomes often need attention years before a buyer appears, yet the legal language and tax rules can be difficult to understand. Josh Lowenthal joins Craig Andrews to explain why effective advisors should translate complexity into clear choices so owners can make informed decisions about their companies and futures.

Josh distinguishes the perspectives a CPA and a tax lawyer may bring to the same business. CPAs often concentrate on accounting, reporting, compliance, and completed activity, while tax lawyers examine statutes, regulations, entity structures, and proposed transactions. For reorganizations, acquisitions, and exits, these perspectives can work together when advisors stay focused on the owner's goals.

The conversation also explores Qualified Small Business Stock, or QSBS, and why owners may want to investigate it well before a sale. Section 1202 may permit eligible shareholders to exclude some federal gain from qualifying stock, but the requirements are detailed and fact-specific, including rules concerning the company, the shares, business activity, and holding period. Eligibility and tax treatment are not guaranteed, so owners should seek qualified legal and tax advice based on their circumstances.

Josh connects that commitment to clarity with his experience hiking the John Muir Trail alone for roughly three weeks. Moving toward one destination each day created space to be present and reflect. In his legal work, the same preference for simplicity means drafting understandable contracts, reducing ambiguity, and helping clients grasp the consequences of decisions that remain theirs to make.

Want to learn more about Josh Lowenthal's work? Check out his website at http://www.joshualowenthal.com.

Connect with Josh on LinkedIn at https://linkedin.com/in/jlowenthal.

Think you'd be a great guest on the show? Apply at https://podcast.allies4me.com/podcast-guest/.

Want to learn more about Craig Andrews' work at allies4me? Check out his website at https://allies4me.com/.

Key Points with Timestamps

• 02:52 — Why plain-English contracts help clients understand decisions that affect their companies and money.
• 05:58 — How ambiguous legal language creates room for conflicting interpretations and costly disputes.
• 09:12 — What Josh learned from hiking the John Muir Trail alone for roughly three weeks.
• 17:29 — How CPAs and tax lawyers approach business tax questions from different, complementary perspectives.
• 22:11 — What Qualified Small Business Stock (QSBS) may offer eligible shareholders under Section 1202.
• 27:44 — Why QSBS planning can require a five-year runway and needs to begin well before a contemplated sale.

Transcript

[00:00] Craig Andrews: I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, “We will do whatever it takes as long as Craig’s in the hospital.” I consider that the greatest accomplishment in my career. My name is Craig Andrews, and this is the Leaders & Legacies podcast, where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today’s interview, I’ll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on this show. Today, I want to welcome Josh Lowenthal. Josh is a tax attorney and founder who sits at the intersection of lower middle market M&A, tax advisory, and corporate law. He's one of these rare attorneys that does both tax and M&A, which makes him doubly dangerous.

[01:11] Craig Andrews: Josh advises business buyers and collaborates closely with CFOs, accountants, brokers, and M&A lawyers to help owners navigate decisions with real financial and personal consequences. But today, we're going to be talking a lot about what he does in tax. If you're a business owner that would like to be paying less in tax, tune in. Josh, welcome.

[01:37] Josh Lowenthal: Hey, Craig, thanks so much for having me on.

[01:39] Craig Andrews: You know, I really wish so many ways that we had, hit record, about a half hour ago, or 20 minutes ago, because… and that happens a lot of times, but… One of the things that you said your goal was, was to make law a little less stuffy. And I love that, because, you know, there's so many people that hide… as a matter of fact, I have a confession to make. My very first.

[02:06] Josh Lowenthal: No way.

[02:07] Craig Andrews: My very first publication. was… I looked… anytime I found a word, I looked for a more complicated word to use in its place, because I thought it would make me look smarter. Okay. And that publication, that was for, you know, it was a scientific publication, and all the propeller heads liked it, but the… I look back at that, and I have shame, because I was like, there was an easier way to say everything in there.

[02:38] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah, no, for sure, for sure. I mean, and that's… look, I mean, if you open up, like, any legal textbook ever, which we were kind of talking about a little bit, it's just, like, your eyes kind of, like, gloss over a little bit, and… I, as a lawyer, love that stuff, right? Like, I'll go read through a 50-page contract, but your average person doesn't, like, always get that. So, what I really try to do, and what's super important to me, is… is not only, A, simplifying a lot of that language when we can, but more importantly, like, making sure that, like, you, Craig, when we're talking about a contract, actually understands what's in it, because the person that it impacts is you, not always me as the lawyer, right?

[03:21] Craig Andrews: Yeah. Yeah, and there's… Yeah, and you all use language like severability. And… And I know it's really important, but it's cloaked in this ambiguous language.

[03:35] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah, yeah. No, it absolutely is, and I'll just give you, like, a very fun anecdote here, because it's something that I'm trying to incorporate more into my practice, where A lot of lawyers will say, oh, we're gonna include… well, we were talking about de minimis, right? Like, oh, we're gonna include this language of de minimis, or recently, we just got off a call a little bit earlier today, where we were arguing about a term called materiality, right? Now. If you don't know what materiality means, it's a… what we call a qualifier. So, it modifies the words that come right after it to change how we read that contract. Okay? But the problem is, is that lawyers say, oh, materiality has a body of law behind it, which is why we use that word. But in reality, the body of law is not very clear. There's… Courts have come out interpreting it differently.

[04:35] Josh Lowenthal: And so instead, we should actually be using different language. So, why I give this whole story is there's an author out there, his name's Ken Adams, you know, some free publicity here, and he writes a book called A Manual Style of Contract Drafting, I have it sitting at my desk. And so, his whole goal. Is to try and make this contract language just, like, a lot simpler and more digestible for your everyday person, so that we don't run into those issues of making language more complicated, right?

[05:07] Craig Andrews: Well… Is it true that where there's confusion, there's conflict?

[05:14] Josh Lowenthal: Yes. Yeah. I mean, the more… it's a great question, because it's like, the more ambiguous language is, and lawyers like ambiguity for a lot of reasons. I like ambiguity, or hedging, right? For a lot of reasons, because it gives me wiggle room. But, as a result of that, it leaves the door open for interpretation. And if there's room for interpretation, then you and I can read the same words, right? That there's, whether it's joint and several liability, or there's just general liability, whatever the wording is that we're going to use, and we can read it in two very different ways, which ultimately leads into us suing each other, and lobbing words back and forth, which ultimately… I don't know. But my opinion is, it doesn't actually benefit anybody.

[06:13] Craig Andrews: you know, I get it from a perspective of shorthand. You know, when you're in an industry, you throw around terms that nobody knows. Yeah. Except for the people in the industry, and all of a sudden… But, you know, when you say de minimis, okay, you just… for somebody in the industry, you just condensed, you know, 2 or 3 sentences into one word that has a common understanding for those in the industry. You know, for the people that the contract's written to benefit, they don't have, you know. I, you know, like I told a story, I was sitting in a room, you know, where the law firm was having some educational thing about, I think it was, classification of employees, and they threw out de minimis. I'm sitting there in the middle of this big room, I stick my hand up, I'm like, what's de minimis? And it's great shorthand, For you to talk to other attorneys, but it's not great for the clients.

[07:09] Josh Lowenthal: Right, right. Well, and that's the thing. And that's kind of what I find as well, is like, we… lawyers… lawyers end up just defaulting to language because it's comfortable. And these days, which we didn't even touch on before this, but, like, that intersection of, like, law and AI these days as well, where… AI is simply, like, pulling in this language that is a public record, right? And that uses a lot of Latin, a lot of complicated terms, what we think we attribute meaning to, but ultimately, it's… you, Joe, Janet down the road, right, doesn't understand, and ultimately, it doesn't really have any meaning, so why are we doing it?

[07:59] Craig Andrews: Yeah.

[08:02] Craig Andrews: Blitz… the… an interesting angle to go on. Before we go too far afloat, because I definitely want to cover tax, but there was something else you mentioned. Something that very sadly, I think, is a part of my former life. And that is backpacking. I,

[08:20] Josh Lowenthal: Okay.

[08:21] Craig Andrews: I was… I was bit by bit. working on covering the Appalachian Trail. You know, sometimes I would just go out for, like, you know, 3 or 4 days, but I've done all of Maryland, a good bit of Virginia, and a… good bit of Pennsylvania on the…

[08:42] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah.

[08:42] Craig Andrews: Appalachian Trail. But… You've done a trail… that everything I've heard about is far more spectacular, far more challenging. It was Sierra Nevada, is that the…

[08:56] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah, yeah, so, I'll push back just a little bit there, that each are beautiful in their own right, and each are challenging in their own right, and I got a quick story about that in just a minute here. But, yeah, so a couple of years ago. I set… I set out for about 3 weeks, 20 days, by myself. Hiking something called the John Muir Trail, which, if you're familiar with long trails, generally, right, so we have the Appalachian Trail out on the east coast, we have the Continental Divide Trail, which kind of runs down the middle of the country. And then out on the west coast, we have the Pacific Crest Trail.

[09:37] Craig Andrews: That's it, yeah. Yeah.

[09:38] Josh Lowenthal: So, it's about 2,000 miles. I didn't do that. It's very high on my bucket list, I just haven't told my wife yet that I'm gonna take 6 months and do it. But there's a… about a 250-mile section in there called the John Muir Trail, which runs, at the very, southern point, at Mount Whitney, which is the tallest mountain in the continental United States, so about 14,500 feet, all the way north to Yosemite. And so I spent 3 weeks backpacking by myself, going from a little bit south of Mount Whitney all the way up to Yosemite. And it was… I… I don't even… candidly, like, I just don't even have the words for it. It's… it is breathtakingly beautiful, and spectacular out there.

[10:31] Craig Andrews: Speaking of breathtaking, you did all your training basically at sea level. Yeah.

[10:38] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah. In Europe.

[10:39] Craig Andrews: 14,000 feet.

[10:41] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah, yeah, it was… so the first couple of days, so I spent a lot of time climbing stairs, my wife will tell you. We lived in an apartment at the time as I was getting ready for that trip, and I would just spend my weekends putting out a backpack, throwing weights into my backpack, and just climbing stairs for, like, hours at a time to get ready. It was a blast. It was a blast. But I'll tell you, the first, like, 3-4 days, when you go from about sea level to… you start at 9,000 feet elevation, and within 3 days, I was hiking Mount Whitney. Which, it was a wild experience on its own.

[11:25] Josh Lowenthal: But you get really bad… you don't realize how much the altitude actually affects you, right? Like, I didn't think about it at the time, but it's like, I wasn't drinking a ton of water, it was hard to eat food because I just didn't have an appetite, and on top of that, you're supposed to be hiking, you know, anywhere from 10 to 20 miles a day. And climbing mountains. Literal mountains. It's… amazing.

[11:51] Craig Andrews: I mean, I… I… I just can't… for me, I'm really sensitive to this. You know, my first year out of the hospital, I was like a human altimeter. I remember landing in Vegas, and I felt… felt tingling in my legs. I'm like, oh crap, I'm at a different altitude. And, And that's… but I just can't imagine training at sea level, and then your starting point's at 9,000 feet.

[12:15] Josh Lowenthal: it's… it's a shock to the system. Like, 110% a shock to the system. And look, I've hiked in California, I've hiked in Colorado, I've hiked up in Montana, and… last summer, I actually did a loop up in New Hampshire… New Hampshire, yeah, New Hampshire, called the Pema-Gawassett Loop, or the Pemi Loop is what people call it. It's through part of the Presidentials there, up in the White Mountains, and Even that, right, where the tallest mountains are only 4,000 feet. Right? Which, you think, oh, it's only 4,000 feet. And it was, Craig, like, it's so incredibly humbling hiking in the Northeast after hiking out west. And anybody you talk to will tell you that, right? Because… You go out to the west coast, the trails are really nice, they're all, like, dirt, they have switchbacks, right? So you go and you climb 100 feet, and it's like, oh yeah, this is really nice, like a gradual incline.

[13:14] Josh Lowenthal: Have you hiked in the Northeast at all?

[13:17] Craig Andrews: Well, I've done a lot of the Appalachian Trail. Yeah.

[13:21] Josh Lowenthal: And so if you go a little bit farther north, right? And parts of… I'm sure you experienced this with the Appalachian Trail, too, right? Where it's like, you go to hike, and they're like, oh, there's a mountain there, and what do they do? They're just like, Oh, we're just gonna go up.

[13:38] Craig Andrews: Yeah.

[13:38] Josh Lowenthal: Right. There's no switchbacks, there's none of this. It's like, there's a boulder in your way? Tough luck, you're climbing the boulder. Which, what was that, some of your experience?

[13:48] Craig Andrews: The… my worst part… my worst part was in Northern Virginia. There was a part of the trail they rerouted because they'd lost land rights.

[13:56] Josh Lowenthal: Okay.

[13:57] Craig Andrews: So instead of going down the ridgeline. you would climb 500 feet, and as soon as you got up 500 feet, you dropped down 500 feet. Then you go up 500 feet, then down… And I did a day of just going up and down 500 feet at a time. My legs were jelly by the end of that.

[14:18] Josh Lowenthal: I feel for you there. I feel for you there, because I can only imagine what that was like.

[14:25] Craig Andrews: Yeah, and I hate going down. I'd rather go up than down. I can handle the up. It's the going down and having to have that resistance, especially with a pack on your back.

[14:35] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah.

[14:36] Craig Andrews: That, to me, just feels like I'm having to use more energy to go downhill than uphill.

[14:42] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah, no, 110%, right? And at least going uphill, it's easier to stop, too, like, catch your breath, and then keep going, whereas downhill, like, you kind of had the momentum, the back on your back, and so you're like. Okay, I guess I'm not stopping here.

[14:58] Craig Andrews: So the question in my mind is, when you're out there for 20 days. Are you working cases in your head? What are you doing?

[15:07] Josh Lowenthal: It's… no, no, I'm not. And it's a great question, but honestly, for me, it's… I tell my wife this a lot, where it's one of the two or three happiest moments that I experience in life.

[15:26] Craig Andrews: Right?

[15:27] Josh Lowenthal: the top happiest experience is being with my wife and my kids, regardless of where we're at. For what it's worth, like, some of my kids are little right now, so they're 2 and 4, and so there's nothing that brings me more joy in life Then, when we're, like, it's a Saturday morning, and we're sitting on the cab, me and my wife. We're sitting on the couch, our kids are playing, like, with their cars. They're really into cars right now, so… they'll, like, sit and play cars, and… And you just recognize, like, how simple our life is right now.

[15:58] Craig Andrews: Yeah.

[15:58] Josh Lowenthal: But it's… it's the… the… those moments that I… I just want to hold onto for forever, right? The second time that I'm just truly at peace, right, is when I'm out in the mountains, and when I'm out in the forest, right? Regardless of where it is. Because… take this trip, right? It's so simple. Every morning you wake up and you have one goal. I am going from where I am right now to where I want to be in 5, 10, 15, 20 miles from here. And that… that's all you're doing. And so, that, coupled with not having any cell service, it just really gives you a lot of time to think and reflect on your life and be present in the moment in a way that, at least I find, I'm sure you find this as well with many of the people that you talk to, like, we just don't have that opportunity to pull back.

[16:52] Craig Andrews: So…

[16:53] Josh Lowenthal: Long-winded way of saying, I don't think about any cases.

[16:56] Craig Andrews: No, that's awesome. Well, let's… so, let's talk about tax.

[17:03] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah.

[17:03] Craig Andrews: You know, and so, specifically business tax. And let me just start with this. One of my biggest frustrations with CPAs is I'm going to them, telling them the, you know, tax strategy I'm wanting to use, and I keep wondering, why is it I'm telling them and they're not telling me?

[17:23] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah, yeah, it… It's… it's a great observation, right? And… I love my CPA friends, so I'm gonna caveat all of this with, I love my CPA friends, I respect the work that they do, it's really hard. for some context here, like, early in my career, I spent some time in public accounting, both at a regional public accounting firm and a large, big-four public accounting firm as well. And… what they do is very difficult, but the roles that a CPA plays, or an enrolled agent plays, right, an EA, which also deserve credit, and what a tax lawyer does, are slightly different. Right? CPAs, as the name implies, is a certified public accountant. And so, if we kind of look back at the history of CPAs, their job was to make sure that the financials were matching what the public was reading.

[18:21] Josh Lowenthal: So it's really to protect consumers. Now, obviously, like, as I'm sure you know, in your own experience, like, that has evolved now to, hey, I need to file my taxes, right? Or as a business owner, it's, hey, I have this idea, what do you think about it? Can we document this? What's happened in the past? on my tax return. And they obviously come to you and say, like, yes, no, whatever. Tax lawyers are a little different. Right? Tax lawyers, we think about law. Generally speaking, right? And so that's where we're different, in the sense that I'm looking at the tax code, I'm looking at the regulations, I'm thinking about, okay, well, how do the different pieces of the puzzle work together so that if you come to me, Craig, and you say, look, I'm in rental real estate, for example, right? what can I do to… Maximize, some of my write-offs. Right now.

[19:16] Josh Lowenthal: And maybe that's moving a car into one of those businesses, because you use that car to go visit all of your rental properties all the time. Or maybe it's that we make a management company because you've hired an employee. to help manage all of those rental real estate properties, and you want to save on taxes over there. So I start to look at your situation and think about that. But that's… that's kind of the big difference between CPAs and lawyers. Or tax lawyers.

[19:51] Craig Andrews: Well, and one thing… You know, I… one thing that I always think about is. What's the benefit of spinning off another entity? versus the encumbrance that comes with that. Or, yeah, here I am, we're talking about keeping… let me not use the big words, without having the, you know, the burdens, like, you know, I'm gonna have to now file another, you know, tax return, and I'm gonna have to do a variety of things that carries a burden of starting up this other entity. And, I mean, for me, there's, you know, like, I have an idea, there's something that I think I can do with a on-premise AI box to help wealth management firms.

[20:39] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah.

[20:39] Craig Andrews: Well, AIs can be a little wild and unpredictable, so no way would I bring that under my current business. I would move it into a different umbrella, you know, move it into another business, so that if the AI goes wild and somebody wants to sue the pants off me, we just burn down that one business, not both.

[20:59] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, and that's kind of… so, for me, like, that's the beauty of tax, right? So, I'll just give you another salient example from a current client that I'm working with right now. I'm not gonna give you too many details, keep it super high level, but they have a company. And they have a couple of different goals here, right? Number one is exactly what you're saying, where they want to… they have a couple different business divisions, or parts of their business. So they want to make sure, okay, hey, how do we protect ourselves so that if this part of the business goes rogue, right, or we have somebody that sues us, that we don't lose the other half of the business, right? So that's kind of goal number one. Goal number 2 is something called QSBS, Qualified Small Business Docket. Are you familiar with QSBS, or have you heard.

[21:55] Craig Andrews: I am not.

[21:56] Josh Lowenthal: Okay, cool. Gonna blow your mind right now, Craig, so you'll love this. Qsbs is a tax code provision. It's been around for, 30 plus years at this point. And basically, it says this. If you own a corporation, something that says, like, corp or Inc. at the end of it. You owned that company for about 5 years. And then you turn around and sell the stock of that company. So somebody just steps into your shoes.

[22:28] Craig Andrews: Yeah.

[22:29] Josh Lowenthal: You, Craig. can exclude the gain, meaning someone gives you cash, right? You don't have to report that on your tax return, of up to $15 million.

[22:43] Craig Andrews: Wait a minute, am I hearing you right? If I've been in business for 5 years. I can sell my business for up to $15 million. And walk away with $15 million untaxed?

[22:55] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah.

[22:57] Craig Andrews: I've never heard this in my life.

[22:59] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah, and that… how cool is that, right? Now, there's some qualifications that you have to meet, and there's a lot of requirements around that. Not gonna get into that here, but yes, like, baseline. That's the light I love delivering, because it blows people's minds. Yeah.

[23:17] Craig Andrews: Oh, and here's where it comes to play. I mean, so we have a live guest, you know, I have two podcasts. And I've had a number of tax strategists on. And usually, they're given some scenario of, you sell your business for $10 million, and, you know, we're gonna help you protect you from the taxes, and we're gonna do this, that, and the other, and it's a complicated structure. To shelter you from the taxes. I've never heard that there's a provision that if I've owned the business for 5 years. I can sell it for up to $15 million tax-free.

[23:51] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah, yeah. Now, like I said, the biggest requirement is it has to be what we call a C corporation, so it has to have income. the end, so… so there's some caveats here, but…

[24:02] Craig Andrews: Yeah.

[24:03] Josh Lowenthal: Yes, you can sell your business for up to $15 million, and that's per shareholder. So, for example, if you and me own that business. We could sell that business for $30 million. And if we each don't one half of that business. No taxes would be paid on that sale.

[24:23] Craig Andrews: You know, that actually helps me connect something. I had a prior guest talk about having a 5-year runway. to an exit. And so that's what he was talking about. So I have heard about it, I just didn't recognize it.

[24:38] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah.

[24:38] Craig Andrews: that. If I have a 5-year runway. I convert my S corp to a C corp. And then I can sell it. Now, is there a tax event when I do the conversion from S-Corp to C-Corp?

[24:53] Josh Lowenthal: So, this is where tax lawyers come in, but… depends… I'm looking… So, I know you were just talking about lawyers saying it depends. It depends on how you do it, right? There's sections of… so there's some language in that statute, Internal Revenue Code, right, the law, 120… section 1202. A little bit farther down, what it says is that if you, If you… own the shares of that C corporation, right? That corp. Through a pass-through entity. something like an S corporation, right? Where we… for tax purposes, we don't… we look through it, just as if you owned it.

[25:40] Craig Andrews: Yeah.

[25:40] Josh Lowenthal: That qualifies. So, what I mean by that is basically, like, if you have an S corporation, and again, this is not legal advice, this is for educational purposes only, right? Oh, But…

[25:53] Craig Andrews: I have a… I have a song. I have a song on my other podcast called.

[25:56] Josh Lowenthal: Okay.

[25:57] Craig Andrews: And that's one of the lines, nothing here is, you know, tax, legal, or financial advice.

[26:03] Josh Lowenthal: Exactly, exactly. Can't, can't give you legal advice, this is not legal advice for any of your listeners, this is educational. there's a section of that tax code that says that if you own the corporation through something like an S corporation. You can still enjoy the benefit. of… you could still, like, not include that on your taxes. So, it goes with how you set it up.

[26:32] Craig Andrews: Yeah. That is… It's fascinating, and it's… But, I mean, it's really valuable, because… If somebody's sitting there building a business that they intend to sell. Or maybe they're just, you know, they're getting late in their career, and they're like, I'm gonna want to get rid of this. You got 5 years, converted over, and all of a sudden, you can avoid a lot of taxes.

[27:00] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And so right now, I'm working with a CFO, advisor, and his, his working thesis right now, is that a lot of these, like, IT service-based companies are wonderful candidates for this, right? And so, we've been working together to help business owners who have a 5-year time horizon, right? They're thinking about this in 5 years. If you're coming to me today, as a quick tangent, if you come to me today and say, look, I want to do this, and I'm trying to sell my business next year, I'm going to tell you. Sorry, it doesn't work. Right? But… his thesis is that IT companies are perfect for this, right? So if you're in that IT service-based industry, right, what we're doing is we're restructuring your companies, and these companies, I just finished one,

[27:57] Josh Lowenthal: That a lot… that'll… that give you that 5-year time horizon, and you grow your business so that you ultimately can sell tax-free in about 5 years. It's really cool.

[28:10] Craig Andrews: Wow.

[28:11] Josh Lowenthal: But…

[28:12] Craig Andrews: Josh…

[28:13] Josh Lowenthal: Oh, God.

[28:14] Craig Andrews: That's… no, no, that's… that's just… that's really… That's really amazing. And I know we could go on, I think we're out of time, but, how can folks reach you? I just gotta say, I love the way that you simplify things, and I think I was the one throwing the big words out, but how can folks reach you?

[28:37] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah, absolutely. So you can… You can find me anywhere, on the internet. I will always tell people to… there's two Josh Lowenthals out there, on the internet. I am not the California Assemblyman. That's the other Josh Lowenthal. But anywhere where you can find me, LinkedIn, Twitter, I also… you can find me on my website, where I run a mostly weekly newsletter. letter, as well, called Empire Builders.

[29:08] Craig Andrews: Yeah. Well, Josh, thanks for coming on, Leaders and Legacies.

[29:12] Josh Lowenthal: Yeah. Craig, thanks so much for having me, this was a blast.

[29:23] Craig Andrews: This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders & Legacies podcast. We’re looking for leaders to share how they’re making an impact beyond themselves. If that’s you, please go to alliesforme.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this episode on social media. Just do a quick screenshot with your phone and text it to a friend or post it on the socials. If you know someone who would be a great guest, tag them on social media and let them know about the show, including the hashtag Leaders and Legacies. I love seeing your posts and suggestions. We are regularly putting out new episodes and content. To make sure you don’t miss anything, please go ahead and subscribe. Your thumbs up, ratings, and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me. It means a lot to my team.

[30:20] Craig Andrews: If you want to know more, please go to allies4me.com or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. See you next time.