In a compelling dialogue on leadership, Kirsten Yurich shares her profound insights on facilitating transformative executive growth. She emphasizes the magical outcomes of bringing high-caliber leaders together in a confidential, creative environment to tackle business challenges. With a rich background, ascending from the ranks to CEO before steering the Vestige School, Yurich's approach is about pushing boundaries and fostering a dynamic strategic experience.

Kirsten underlines the significance of a structured process to peel the layers of leadership challenges, revealing that most dilemmas boil down to time management and people skills. Through her narrative, Yurich illustrates how true leadership is about introspection, embracing vulnerability, and leveraging collective wisdom to drive personal and professional evolution.

Want to learn more about Kirsten's work? Check out their website at http://kirstenyurich.com/.

Connect with Johanna on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirsten-yurich/.

Key Points with Time Stamps

• Introduction to Kirsten Yurich (00:00:11): Introduction and background of Kirsten Yurich, emphasizing her journey and approach to executive coaching.
• The Power of Peer Groups (00:02:48): Yurich discusses the impact of leading peer groups, creating a 'safe container' for executive dialogue and breakthrough.
• Simplicity in Leadership Challenges (00:10:27): Yurich simplifies leadership into two core challenges: managing time and managing people.
• Structured Process for Magical Outcomes (00:09:14): Insight into the structured process called 'issue processing' that facilitates leadership breakthroughs.
• Self-Reflection and Accountability (00:15:21): Emphasizing the importance of self-reflection and accountability in leadership development.
• Effective Reporting and KPIs (00:20:13): Yurich's advice on utilizing reporting and KPIs to make informed leadership decisions.
• Final Thoughts on Leadership Growth (00:32:26): Yurich concludes with a powerful statement on leadership development, highlighting the continuous need for self-improvement.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:11:04
Craig Andrews
Today, I want to welcome Kirsten Urich. We've known each other for probably over a year, a couple of years. Ever LinkedIn. This is actually our first time talking in person.

00:00:11:06 - 00:00:11:18
Kirsten Yurich
Yes.

00:00:11:19 - 00:00:53:11
Craig Andrews
I'm Kirsten. One of the things I saw that you said that just. I love. And I'm just going to read this. Magic happens when a dozen or more high caliber local executives meet confidentially to discuss opportunities and find creative solutions to business challenges. It's not just another meeting. It's a safe, challenging, and dynamically strategic experience. Now, where Kirsten does that is, in in this stage where she coaches other CEOs and she's not coming in from, you know, they there's that saying where those who can't do teach.

00:00:53:13 - 00:01:24:21
Craig Andrews
Kirsten is done. She joined a organization called the Vestige School, came at the lowest level and left when she was the CEO. And so invested. Kirsten facilitates full engagement and productive collaboration that has members thinking differently, skirting the edges of their comfort zones and transforming into better leaders and better human beings. Yeah, Kirsten, I've really been looking forward to this conversation.

00:01:24:22 - 00:01:26:23
Craig Andrews
Thank you for being on Leaders and Legacies.

00:01:27:00 - 00:01:31:18
Kirsten Yurich
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy and it's my pleasure to be here.

00:01:31:20 - 00:01:51:13
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And for those that are listening, Kirsten is the second vestige chair that I've had on. And the, John Banes, the other one, just a phenomenally downloaded episode. So based on history, if you're listening, stay tuned. I think you're about to learn some really, really good things.

00:01:51:15 - 00:01:53:17
Kirsten Yurich
Way to set the bar.

00:01:53:19 - 00:02:19:24
Craig Andrews
Well. I, you know, secure Sam is looking over some of the some of your background and you strike me as a very curious person. And and the way I see that is you just sort of have your hand in a variety of things and makes a little bit of a challenge for me to look at this and figure out what question to ask first.

00:02:20:01 - 00:02:21:24
Kirsten Yurich
Who do I want to be when I grow up? Maybe.

00:02:22:01 - 00:02:22:11
Craig Andrews
Yeah.

00:02:22:15 - 00:02:48:24
Kirsten Yurich
Because one day I'm still figuring that out. I'm still figuring that out. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. Very curious. And I think that, serves me well in this current role. So I've, been chairing now with this stage for a little over two years, and it's been a phenomenal experience sitting around with amazing leaders who are running companies or building companies.

00:02:48:24 - 00:03:09:16
Kirsten Yurich
And, you know, I learned from them more than I think I teach them anything. But I create a space like how you opened up us today. In reading that, I create a space, what I call it safe container. There's a loose agenda, and then the magic happens, right? They bring in the content, they bring in the agenda. And I'm more of a conductor.

00:03:09:18 - 00:03:37:03
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And you know, the. Yeah, I'm sure you've seen that. I published a book recently called Make Sales magical. Yeah. The when I and that was the thing that captured me when I saw that, you know, one that's a word that just gets my attention because it resonates with me. But I think something any magician knows is when you see, when you look beyond the magic, what's behind it is actually phenomenally boring.

00:03:38:11 - 00:03:41:01
Craig Andrews
What would you say that's the case. Yeah.

00:03:41:03 - 00:04:00:02
Kirsten Yurich
Yeah. Very little, very little. If anything it's a few replicable things that you do. And then you look for what's in the room. Right. You bring some things, the audience bring some things or the, the participants bring some things. And it's that combination. Yeah. Right. It's what happens. Agreed.

00:04:00:04 - 00:04:22:11
Craig Andrews
Well and the thing that I see in this stage that would say, you know, let me give you an example of magic that's really boring. You know David Copperfield the you know and he's famous for making big things disappear. And he had an illusion where he would make part of the audience disappear from one part of the theater and reappear in another part of the theater.

00:04:22:13 - 00:04:43:22
Craig Andrews
And one time in the middle of the illusion somebody got hurt and there was a, lawsuit. And so I came out and discovery that the way that illusion works is I guess they have they picked these people before the show, they have them sign an NDA and then they, he makes smoke appear or something like that, and they run through a tunnel.

00:04:43:22 - 00:04:56:01
Craig Andrews
They disappear through a little hatch and run through a tunnel to the other side of the theater and pop up on the other side, and one of them tripped on the way and kind of hurt himself. And I'm like, well, that's kind of boring.

00:04:56:01 - 00:05:02:07
Kirsten Yurich
That's not much to that. Like, I could do that at myself, all right.

00:05:02:09 - 00:05:27:18
Craig Andrews
But see, I think that's I think that's I think that's a critical element of magic. The magic is not that mystical things happen. It's that you do things, whether it's in vestige or whether it's David Copperfield or, any other magician. You do things in a systematic way, but there's an element of surprise where people weren't expecting the outcome that they got.

00:05:27:20 - 00:06:03:00
Kirsten Yurich
Right, right. Something was different. Something changed. And that outcome is different every time I. I think that's exactly right. And even though they're coming safer for what I'm doing, they're coming to the same meeting the same day of the month, right. The same members. And yet what happens there is completely different every single time. Something, you know, some kind of discovery, some kind of some kind of breakthrough is happening.

00:06:03:00 - 00:06:34:06
Kirsten Yurich
Somebody is coming maybe in pain with some, you know, really challenging thing on their heart. And they have no place. These leaders and I, I went to a group before as a CEO. And so from personal experience I walked into this room guarded, sort of embarrassed. And, you know, my first experience, I walked in and there are really smart, talented, well-dressed people.

00:06:34:07 - 00:07:00:04
Kirsten Yurich
I'm like, wow, I'm not going to say a word today. I'm just going to sit here. Right. Well, nobody let that happen, right? This is a room where everybody talks. There are no wallflowers. And but it's inviting, it's kind. It's, our word invested is care for intentional, right? There's care and there's confrontation. Like, we want to pull something out of you that maybe you weren't quite ready to talk about today.

00:07:00:10 - 00:07:13:05
Kirsten Yurich
But it's for that very fact that you need to talk about it today. But we're going to do it with care, right? Care for you as the person. Right? We're hard on issues, but soft on people.

00:07:13:07 - 00:07:15:00
Craig Andrews
I love that distinction.

00:07:15:02 - 00:07:16:00
Kirsten Yurich
Yeah.

00:07:16:02 - 00:07:29:11
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And you know what? It hit me. There's there's some people that probably are not entirely familiar with what vestiges. So if you were to kind of just give it a nutshell, what would you say? Vestiges.

00:07:29:13 - 00:07:33:03
Kirsten Yurich
It's a gym for executive athletes.

00:07:33:05 - 00:07:36:05
Craig Andrews
Oh, I love that.

00:07:36:07 - 00:07:40:20
Kirsten Yurich
I, I don't want to give you the spiel that you can read on the website.

00:07:40:22 - 00:07:46:15
Craig Andrews
you know, my phrase for it has always been it's a board of directors that can't fire you.

00:07:46:17 - 00:07:48:20
Kirsten Yurich
It's that too. Yeah.

00:07:48:22 - 00:08:07:15
Craig Andrews
You know, and that's the problem. I mean, the concept of a board of directors is just phenomenally good. It's a bunch of people with diverse experiences that aren't too close to the problem to help advise you in writing your business. The reality is, any CEO walking into a board meeting knows he's one wrong statement away from being fired.

00:08:07:15 - 00:08:26:06
Kirsten Yurich
Yes. So you always have a level of fear and you always have a shield. and that's the one thing you don't have up when you walk into your Vista peer group, your board of directors that can't fire you. I love that, and I'm going to steal that. Just putting that out there. they don't have the guard up.

00:08:26:06 - 00:08:44:00
Kirsten Yurich
They don't have the armor on. You take off your armor. And I also say it's like Vegas, of course. So you walk into this board of directors, you get to take off that armor and get that advantage of hundreds of collective years of experience from all of these amazing people in the room, and you get to be totally honest with them.

00:08:44:03 - 00:09:02:20
Kirsten Yurich
And they're going to be totally honest with you. But again, there's no harm, no foul. Their only agenda is your benefit. Yeah. I have no vested interest in the company that you are running. They only care about you. And so they're going to be really honest but very caring.

00:09:02:22 - 00:09:14:20
Craig Andrews
Yeah. What would you say is sort of the mundane process, the mundane structure that creates the magical outcomes.

00:09:14:22 - 00:09:52:05
Kirsten Yurich
I would say there are a couple the most impactful is what we consider and call our issue processing. That's where we say really the magic happens. It's where we collect from individuals the most pressing need, the most imminent decision. Somebody has to make, the biggest opportunity they have coming in the next quarter. And then we go through a structured process of kind of discovery.

00:09:52:05 - 00:10:27:04
Kirsten Yurich
So one of the questions is, you know, what emotion do you have attached to this issue or decision or opportunity. Why is this really important to you? and then we ask deeper questions. We get, deeper because often, as I'm sure you know, the first thing somebody brings up is not probably really it, when we go deeper and a deeper exploring issues for months and months and hours and hours with individuals, leaders really have two problems.

00:10:27:06 - 00:10:40:15
Kirsten Yurich
All leaders. Everything can get distilled into two problems. Leaders have two types of issues. They have what do I do with my time and what do I do with my people? That's it. Everything can get distilled into that.

00:10:40:17 - 00:10:45:08
Craig Andrews
Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love the simplicity of that.

00:10:45:10 - 00:11:06:18
Kirsten Yurich
Yeah. But we go deeper into their issues, and we get, we find out really what's the core. If you picture peeling an onion, that's sort of what it looks like. All right. So we ask what the questions of wonderment we don't ask who when, what. questions. We ask questions that sort of explore from a curiosity standpoint.

00:11:06:18 - 00:11:40:06
Kirsten Yurich
You mentioned curiosity at the beginning. That's where it really helps us, explore the issue. And then, you know, we get deeper and we help them with suggestions or solutions or, you know, hey, don't do this. Try. I tried this when I had that right. And that's where they get the collective wisdom of the group and everybody take something away, even if it wasn't their issue, challenge or decision that was sort of, you know, on the operating table, someone has something related to the issue that was discussed and everyone take something away every time.

00:11:40:08 - 00:11:42:19
Kirsten Yurich
Yeah, that's the magic.

00:11:42:21 - 00:11:57:24
Craig Andrews
Now, you said something a few minutes ago that really stood out to me. You said that there's really two issues. There's the issue that they bring, but then there's the issue they're really having. Can you help me understand what you're talking about? There?

00:11:58:01 - 00:12:25:00
Kirsten Yurich
Well, for instance, one issue may have been how do I get my executive leaders to act more executive? They are not, using executive thinking skills. They're not they're not behaving as they ought. So term from, Skinner, actually they're not behaving as they ought. These, these, executives. Well, so we start probing. Well, what are they doing?

00:12:25:00 - 00:12:48:16
Kirsten Yurich
What do they not do? And keep in mind, one of our favorite phrases is those executives aren't in the room. We're not going to, quote unquote, process them. We're going to process the person in the room, the leader. Okay. So you dig, you dig, you dig what? Maybe are you not clear on with them? What maybe have you.

00:12:48:18 - 00:13:07:16
Kirsten Yurich
You know, provided them or not provided them in terms of clarity, in terms of direction, in terms of attention. Right. So the issue that the person brings is often outside of them. And the issue that really often needs to be solved is inside of them.

00:13:07:18 - 00:13:26:20
Craig Andrews
I think that's so incredibly powerful. I think that's insanely powerful. And and if we break this out of the, you know, the boardroom, if we break this into broader society and applied that concept, think about how that would transform this world.

00:13:26:22 - 00:13:28:24
Kirsten Yurich
Yeah.

00:13:29:01 - 00:14:04:00
Craig Andrews
Like the you you mentioned to me that you have, some you have a bill going through the legislature now, you drafted a bill, it's gone through the legislature. And, you know, I know a lot of people are just enormously turned off to politics, at least at the national level. you know, congressmen and congresswomen or Congress in general has a lower approval rating than I think payday lenders and, and, and there's just so much infighting.

00:14:04:02 - 00:14:17:05
Craig Andrews
And I love that concept of you see, the problem is outside of you, what's the problem inside of you that you can where you can affect change?

00:14:17:07 - 00:14:22:14
Kirsten Yurich
Right. That's the the only place we truly have influence.

00:14:22:16 - 00:14:35:21
Craig Andrews
Is that it's so incredibly powerful. I mean, if there was nothing else that came out of this episode, I think that is a golden nugget. Yeah.

00:14:35:23 - 00:14:51:01
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Wow. So, okay, so work the issue. What what happens when somebody is working an issue and they all of a sudden realize it's not a problem with their executive team. It's an, problem with them. do.

00:14:51:01 - 00:14:55:24
Kirsten Yurich
They have some silence sometimes there's some expletives.

00:14:56:01 - 00:14:57:13
Craig Andrews
Yeah.

00:14:57:15 - 00:15:21:12
Kirsten Yurich
Right. Like we don't want to be the problem. We we we often like the problem to be outside of ourselves. Yeah. but I think that's a higher level of leader, you know? And when you really start to really have a leader who's really moving along, they come in with, okay, this is what's happening. What am I not seeing?

00:15:21:12 - 00:15:53:16
Kirsten Yurich
What am I not doing? What am I doing that's contributing to the problem. Right. They start asking. They start asking. The group for their blind spots and they know the issue is already within them. They just can't find it. That's that's an awesome step. Right. That is an awesome step for a leader. and so that we love to see that but then it's self-reflection and it's so hard because leaders every level of leader is one step isolated away from the people that they work with.

00:15:53:16 - 00:16:18:00
Kirsten Yurich
So every rung that you go up is another step away from reality of what's going on around you and inside your company. So every leader is devoid of valid and true information, right? Because we don't often tell people what's really going on. Right? These are the people that can give us a pay cut for us, give us an assignment we don't want, right?

00:16:18:00 - 00:16:45:07
Kirsten Yurich
At every level of leader there is a power differential. And so the higher you go, the less information you have. And so it's more important and more valuable for these higher rung leaders to get good information and get good at their own self-reflection and recruiting information about what's going on and how they're contributing to issues, or they're just going to be fumbling around in the dark.

00:16:45:09 - 00:16:49:03
Craig Andrews
Have you have you ever read the Made in America by Sam Walton?

00:16:49:05 - 00:16:50:19
Kirsten Yurich
Oh, that the Walmart book?

00:16:50:19 - 00:16:51:10
Craig Andrews
Yeah.

00:16:51:12 - 00:16:53:08
Kirsten Yurich
Yeah. no.

00:16:53:10 - 00:17:27:10
Craig Andrews
It's a phenomenally good book. And, you know, for those that don't remember, Walmart used to just be an amazing company. And it's very sad what they've become. But one of the things that book, by the way, one of the best audio, biographies of an executive I've ever read. And but one of the things that Sam Walton used to do was he would grab a box of donuts and head over to the, to the sort of the truck depots or the shipping depots, the shipping warehouses.

00:17:27:12 - 00:17:53:08
Craig Andrews
And he would sit down with the truck drivers and talk to them. He said that was one of his best places to get information about his company. Sure. So and that's that that's that level removed that you're talking about. This was a system that he put in place. He knew you know. So any executive knows at some level people are just bringing the lies.

00:17:53:08 - 00:17:54:10
Craig Andrews
They're bringing the you.

00:17:54:10 - 00:17:55:16
Kirsten Yurich
Know you want to hear.

00:17:55:18 - 00:17:57:01
Craig Andrews
What you want to hear.

00:17:57:03 - 00:17:57:15
Kirsten Yurich
Right.

00:17:57:17 - 00:18:16:10
Craig Andrews
And you have to have a system of disrupting that. And Sam Walton system was well he had a number of systems. But you know, one, he would grab a box of donuts and, go talk to the drivers that were doing the deliveries at the different stores. And he just got amazing insight on what was happening in his company.

00:18:16:15 - 00:18:47:13
Kirsten Yurich
Yeah, well, think about the work he had to do to build that rapport, because, you know, a CEO walking down to a truck depot, automat is not necessarily going to get honest information. He had to really build that rapport to get that, to get that, which is commendable. that reminds me of the story of, you know, Alan Mulally taking over Ford and the, you know, the red, green and yellow system he had for for the reporting of issues and everything was always green, but they're losing billions of dollars, right?

00:18:47:13 - 00:19:05:06
Kirsten Yurich
Like, well, guys, everything can't be green, right? The first time somebody scored a red was honest enough to give a red, you know, he started clapping. Applause. Right. We have we have to reinforce honesty. Even if it's bad news. Right. And that's the culture the leader has to create. for sure.

00:19:05:08 - 00:19:16:07
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Now, you mentioned data and reporting. So one of your many interests seems to be data and reporting.

00:19:16:09 - 00:19:18:12
Kirsten Yurich
So it's kind of a nerdy interest. Yeah.

00:19:18:14 - 00:19:21:09
Craig Andrews
Yeah.

00:19:21:11 - 00:19:28:05
Kirsten Yurich
I, a CEO, I got, kind of in trouble for going deeper often, but. Yeah.

00:19:28:07 - 00:19:59:02
Craig Andrews
Well, the. What would you tell people, you know, what would you tell any executive or any business owner? how what they should strive to do in reporting because that's, you know, digging into the data, digging into the reporting. That's that's one of those, you know, how deep is deep? How wide is wide side of things. And they just frankly, they don't have time, you know, to go as deep as they possibly can or as wide as they possibly can.

00:19:59:04 - 00:19:59:17
Kirsten Yurich
Right.

00:19:59:19 - 00:20:13:12
Craig Andrews
So what would you recommend for somebody who's like any other executive? They're busy. They have more tasks than they have time in the day. What would you recommend that they pursue in terms of reporting and KPIs?

00:20:13:14 - 00:20:36:02
Kirsten Yurich
So the answers are in the room, right? The your people are in the room that are running those different verticals and they know what's important. And so you have to trust the people or you haven't hired the right people. You have to trust the people that you have in the room that they know what's most important for each, whether it's the operation, the HR, the IT is right.

00:20:36:04 - 00:21:01:16
Kirsten Yurich
Every sort of division or operation has 1 to 2 numbers that if you know that, you know, things are kind of humming along, right. And the more they can be on the leading side versus the lagging side of numbers and the audience, probably most of the audience probably knows the difference between those two things. Right? We're not we're trying to use headlights and not rearview lights.

00:21:01:18 - 00:21:31:01
Kirsten Yurich
The better. All right. So 1 to 2 numbers across the the different, whether you've got divisions or departments or operational metrics. Right. You don't want 100 different numbers. You kind of want 10 to 15 numbers if you're at the highest level, to look across the whole organization, across sort of your standard operating procedure buckets. All right. So you as a CEO can kind of have a one sheet dashboard of all the metrics, mostly leading if they can be right.

00:21:31:03 - 00:21:35:17
Kirsten Yurich
Your panels, that's always looking backwards. You shouldn't be leading from a PDF.

00:21:35:19 - 00:21:36:16
Craig Andrews
Yeah.

00:21:36:18 - 00:21:38:01
Kirsten Yurich
Hopefully that's not new.

00:21:38:03 - 00:21:52:10
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Well and I would say that, If if you have your dashboards and if you have your dashboards set up correctly, you're never surprised.

00:21:52:12 - 00:22:19:15
Kirsten Yurich
Right. And I had cascading ones. So the, the layer under me had a dashboard. It fed up here. They had a little bit more than I did, a little different, you know, a slice below and a slice below and a slice below. So and they all sort of waterfall or cascaded. Right. Because of the program level, they're interested in a few different things at, at a different level or granularity than up here.

00:22:19:15 - 00:22:50:17
Kirsten Yurich
Right. And I might be looking more corporate wide or system wide. They're looking at a slice. They're looking at a slice. And so it takes a while to get there. but it's well worth it when you can look at one, one sheet of paper and diagnose, you know, where an issue may be and then go deeper, you're not going to know everything, but you'll have sort of the canary in the coal mine, for lack of a better term, that something may be going on, or everything's green or everything's green and yellow.

00:22:50:19 - 00:22:55:23
Kirsten Yurich
Okay. Right. Then what is a bigger issue that we can be dealing with right now?

00:22:56:00 - 00:23:20:01
Craig Andrews
You know, when I work with clients, of course, they're, you know, rightfully so, looking for reporting, looking for dashboards. But sometimes I run into fairly often is one will ask me for something and I'm looking at, like either it's clearly a vanity metric or it's a misleading metric. you know, and.

00:23:20:03 - 00:23:40:12
Kirsten Yurich
The measurement or the thing. So oftentimes people say like, oh, I'm interested in, you know, customer service, but we measure it by this, right? So the measure and the label are two different things. And we can measure the label variety of different ways. And so when it are you speaking of sort of the way they're measuring it or the thing they're interested.

00:23:40:14 - 00:23:54:13
Craig Andrews
I you know, I think they're looking I would say that they're looking at the, the wrong thing. And so are you familiar with the the graph that shows, drownings as a, as a function of ice cream consumption?

00:23:54:15 - 00:23:57:05
Kirsten Yurich
No, correlation does not equal causation.

00:23:57:07 - 00:23:58:03
Craig Andrews
Right.

00:23:58:05 - 00:23:59:05
Kirsten Yurich
Right. Let's stop there.

00:23:59:07 - 00:23:59:24
Craig Andrews
Yeah.

00:24:00:01 - 00:24:01:12
Kirsten Yurich
Let's jump to the end.

00:24:01:14 - 00:24:19:08
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So there's a there's a graph out there showing the, how the number of drownings is directly proportional to ice cream consumption. And the real answer behind that is because you you eat more ice cream in the summer, which is also when you swim where you're more susceptible to being, you know, drowning.

00:24:19:10 - 00:24:21:09
Kirsten Yurich
Yeah. third variable. Yeah.

00:24:21:11 - 00:24:44:08
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And so that would be, you know, that would be one example of it where, you know, somebody comes in and they say, hey, I've and this one seems obvious because of the absurdity of it, but the danger is when it's not obvious that it's absurd. And somebody comes in and says, hey, I want a metric that shows, you know, how much ice cream is being consumed.

00:24:44:08 - 00:24:57:04
Craig Andrews
Because you know what? We're gonna have more drownings as a result. How do you identify when you're once, you know, when you've latched on to such a metric? And how do you hedge against that?

00:24:57:06 - 00:25:19:00
Kirsten Yurich
I would ask a series of questions. So I think that's where the curiosity comes back in. Right. So why what why do you think maybe it's just the five whys, you know, as a simple mechanism, you know, why did you draw that conclusion for your example, particularly, why is that interesting? Why do you think that's the right measure?

00:25:19:02 - 00:25:36:21
Kirsten Yurich
why do why do we know what we know now? What do we think? We don't know. Right. Just asking a series of questions. So when someone comes in that firm, you know, and tell me what you know about this so far, right. Asking maybe about the knowledge that somebody has that they're using to draw the conclusion that they're already drawing.

00:25:36:23 - 00:25:42:13
Kirsten Yurich
Yeah. just start with curiosity. Normally you can work your way through that.

00:25:42:15 - 00:26:14:01
Craig Andrews
So there's one I see frequently, and I understand the motivation behind it. And I'd be interested in your take on how you would how would you how you would coach someone away from this. So the, you know, the holy grail of marketing is attribution. You know, we spend, you know, thousand dollars on Facebook and we get this many customers and, we spend $1,000 on, Google display ads, and we get much fewer customers.

00:26:14:03 - 00:26:47:11
Craig Andrews
Therefore, we're going to cut Google Display ads. And, you know, as a marketer, you know, two things. One, attribution is the holy grail. It's everybody wants it, but it's only achievable. The other thing, you know, as a marketer is that the channels interact and you can never you can never definitively prove it. and, and so inevitably, you know, this would be an example, one of the metrics that people ask me for is like, yeah, well, I want to know, you know, what channels are giving us the best ROI.

00:26:47:13 - 00:27:09:22
Craig Andrews
And immediately I know where that question's going. And I see the faulty logic, because it's missing, you know, it's missing the fact that, hey, you know what? On average these days, it's 21 touches before somebody does an engagement. And when you take out one of the channels that's providing those touches, you just messed up the whole system.

00:27:09:24 - 00:27:24:19
Craig Andrews
So if you were if you were advising somebody, let's say somebody in your, your C group who was focused on this issue is like, oh, I have this dog on marketer that,

00:27:24:21 - 00:27:25:19
Kirsten Yurich
Names. Correct.

00:27:25:21 - 00:27:40:21
Craig Andrews
Yeah. I think that's there's this guy Craig. He's so annoying. And I can't get him off this, you know, I can't come to own up to attribution. He should be able to. He's a marketer. I want to know his attribution. How would you work that issue with him?

00:27:40:23 - 00:28:04:02
Kirsten Yurich
I would start by asking him what he knows about it, what where he's coming from, what his goals are. So I again, I don't I'm not going to coach somebody to or away from something that maybe I value or that I think I have to get to. What a leader, to what their goals are and to what's most important to them.

00:28:04:02 - 00:28:30:19
Kirsten Yurich
And I'm always going to challenge the assumptions they're making, the knowledge they're using. Are they coming from a blind spot right. So I'm always going to be sort of seeking any of those avenues to bring that to light for them, saying, okay, well, this is what you are. I originally wanted to ask, but now that you've talked through this, you realize you're sort of coming from a bias of you think it's too expensive already, so how's that?

00:28:30:21 - 00:28:56:16
Kirsten Yurich
How's it going to make you open to understanding how it works? Right. So just kind of bringing them to a place of if you're coming at the question from this perspective, what might you be missing. How could that impact the quality of the decision you can make if you've already, you know, made this decision in your head or you know, held this as fact when it may not be fact.

00:28:56:18 - 00:29:06:04
Kirsten Yurich
Right. So my job is to bring those things to bubble that stuff up to the surface so the leader can make to make a better decision. It's not my decision to make.

00:29:06:06 - 00:29:16:15
Craig Andrews
And, you know, I think I think that brings us back to the beginning of the discussion where we were talking about magic, what you just described as a, you know, fairly boring structure process.

00:29:16:15 - 00:29:21:22
Kirsten Yurich
I've been accused of being no fun mom. Yeah. yeah, maybe that's the bombshell.

00:29:21:24 - 00:29:30:17
Craig Andrews
But the it's that boring, structured process that brings around those magical moments where all of a sudden they they start realizing.

00:29:30:19 - 00:29:53:23
Kirsten Yurich
Yeah, like, oh, right. Yeah. When I get it like kind of a silence or like, oh yeah, darn. Or that's a good question. Like those for me or my data points that I'm sort of doing my job. I, you know, I'm being just challenging enough. You know, it's not I love my, my, the people that I work with or amazing people, but I'm not there to just be chummy.

00:29:54:00 - 00:30:03:20
Kirsten Yurich
Right. And I'm not there to be hardass either. Like, it's got to be somewhere in the middle so that those are data points for me, that I'm kind of like hitting the sweet spot.

00:30:03:22 - 00:30:38:20
Craig Andrews
Well, well that's excellent. Well, Kirsten, I actually have another half dozen questions. Okay. But we've run out of time and I, I just what a fascinating conversation and, you know, really appreciate you coming in and sharing your perspective and the, you know, kind of the big takeaways that just as I'm listening to this, the, you know, one, you know, central to your mission, what drives you and you and we didn't talk much about you, your role as a CEO.

00:30:38:22 - 00:30:58:07
Craig Andrews
in the organization. But more of where you you coach peer groups of CEOs. But just the importance of having a room, being able to be in a room of people, that campfire you who care for you and have insights that may help you run your business better.

00:30:58:09 - 00:30:59:02
Kirsten Yurich
Yeah.

00:30:59:04 - 00:31:16:24
Craig Andrews
And so that's one big takeaway that I have. Another big takeaway. I have is I hear in you and what you do, whether it's vestige or anything else, you follow structured processes. And when you follow those structured process processes magical things happen.

00:31:18:06 - 00:31:25:04
Craig Andrews
So obviously we want people to get in touch with you. You're in Hershey Pennsylvania.

00:31:25:04 - 00:31:29:21
Kirsten Yurich
Yes. Yep. So I make chocolate just okay.

00:31:29:23 - 00:31:32:17
Craig Andrews
So how do you, how did people reach you?

00:31:32:19 - 00:31:35:22
Kirsten Yurich
I have a website. Kirsten, you're on super easy.

00:31:35:24 - 00:31:54:24
Craig Andrews
Okay. And we'll have that in the show notes. you're it's spelled just like it sounds. Y u r I c h. Yep. And, and so I do hope people reach out to you, and I, and maybe they're in another part of the country, and you can direct them to this chair, and they're part of the country.

00:31:54:24 - 00:31:57:02
Craig Andrews
But I do hope people reach out.

00:31:57:04 - 00:32:19:19
Kirsten Yurich
Yeah, I would love that. And I have, a special spot on the website for anybody that's listened and wants to go over there and visit. I'd be happy to have a call with somebody who's heard this conversation and would like to talk about something that's on their mind, whether it's personal or professional. there's a place on there just for your listeners to reach out to me.

00:32:19:21 - 00:32:20:18
Craig Andrews
Well thank you.

00:32:20:20 - 00:32:26:13
Kirsten Yurich
Leadership does not get easier. You have to get better.

00:32:26:15 - 00:32:31:17
Craig Andrews
Oh my goodness. What a what a great line. And on. Thank you Kirsten.

00:32:31:20 - 00:32:37:06
Kirsten Yurich
You're so welcome. My pleasure. Happy to be here.