Corey Harlock shares his transformative journey from the hospitality industry to becoming a pivotal figure in talent strategy. With a rich background in creating exceptional experiences, he now empowers small business owners by connecting the right talent with the right opportunities.

Correy's innovative approach is not just about recruitment; it’s about crafting a talent strategy that propels businesses forward, ensuring they are equipped for future success. Harlock's insights are a goldmine for any leader aiming to cultivate a high-performance team while also making a profound community impact.

Want to learn more about Corey Harlock's work? Check out their website at http://keyhire.solutions.

Connect with Corey Harlock on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/coreyharlock/.

Key Points with Timestamps:

• [00:01:16.06]: Corey Harlock's transition from hospitality to recruitment.
• [00:01:41.27]: His impact on small businesses through strategic talent placement.
• [00:18:15.11]: Focus on improving lives and communities through effective talent strategy.
• [00:19:14.10]: Differentiating between a recruiter and a talent strategist.
• [00:26:39.26]: The challenge of transitioning loyal employees during growth.
• [00:33:17.17]: Strategies for dealing with employees who have reached their level of incompetence.
• [00:42:30.28]: Importance of hiring for future company needs, not just current gaps.

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;30;20
Craig Andrews
I was in a coma for six weeks while the doctors told my wife I was going to die. When I woke up, she told me the most fantastic story. My team kept running the business without me. Freelancers reached out to my team and said, we will do whatever it takes. As long as Craig's in the hospital. I consider that the greatest accomplishment of my career.

00;00;30;23 - 00;00;51;10
Craig Andrews
My name is Craig Andrews and this is the Leaders and Legacies podcast where we talk to leaders creating an impact beyond themselves. At the end of today's interview, I'll tell you how you can be the next leader featured on the show.

00;00;51;12 - 00;01;16;06
Craig Andrews
Today I want to welcome Corey Harlock where he has a 13 year background in the hospitality industry. We're going to talk a little bit about that and how it honed his skills to do what he's doing now, and delivering exceptional experience. And and that actually for Corey being a little bit of a reinvention of life, he went from that.

00;01;16;06 - 00;01;41;27
Craig Andrews
Now he's in recruiting and discovered the profound impact he can have on connecting the right talent with the right opportunities. Corey is a vestige member, and if you're not familiar with that, we're going to talk a little bit about that and why that's important. And he's soon to be a vested speaker, fueled by his, you know, his background.

00;01;41;27 - 00;02;05;22
Craig Andrews
He's found a key hire to meet the unique needs of small business owners, providing them with insider organizational and talent expertise. They need to, take. they need to take their business where they want to be. And so we're going to talk about that a little bit. Also about what the differences between fractional talent and fractional air.

00;02;05;24 - 00;02;14;11
Craig Andrews
But Corey, you know, we've known each other for a while now. And, I've really been looking forward to this. Thanks for being on Leaders and Legacies.

00;02;14;13 - 00;02;16;23
Corey Harlock
Hey, it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

00;02;16;25 - 00;02;30;16
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So let's go back to hospitality now. Anybody listening? I haven't heard haven't heard something yet in the. You know, a few words that you've said, but at some point you're going to say something just right. They're going to say he's from Canada.

00;02;30;19 - 00;02;31;18
Corey Harlock
Correct. Yeah.

00;02;31;20 - 00;02;33;14
Craig Andrews
Where are you from?

00;02;33;16 - 00;02;52;20
Corey Harlock
I don't readily usually admit this, but I'm from a little town outside of Toronto called Oshawa, Ontario. Kind of famous for two things. used to have three GM factories, and it's one of the Oshawa Generals hockey team which produced Bobby R and Eric Lindros and a couple other big hockey names.

00;02;52;22 - 00;02;57;17
Craig Andrews
So is it closer to Detroit or closer to Toronto?

00;02;57;20 - 00;03;07;20
Corey Harlock
Toronto. It's used to be able to get into downtown Toronto in 45 minutes from Oshawa. You can't do that anymore with the traffic, but now it's a lunchbox community for Toronto.

00;03;07;22 - 00;03;09;08
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Okay.

00;03;09;11 - 00;03;18;08
Corey Harlock
And just as an FYI, it's not Toronto, it's Toronto. There's only one T in Toronto. Yeah, start with two, but you only pronounce one.

00;03;18;10 - 00;03;27;17
Craig Andrews
Yeah. Interested. And so you left that and then you moved out to the Canadian Rockies. Correct.

00;03;27;17 - 00;03;49;08
Corey Harlock
Yeah. After I graduated. So. Well, I did a placement, for my college, education out in Jasper, Alberta. And then, it was a work placement, and then, when traveling, it did a little traveling in a VW van with a friend of mine through the States. Got back to, Oshawa and said, man, I want to go.

00;03;49;08 - 00;03;53;09
Corey Harlock
I need to get back to the Rockies. So I headed back out there.

00;03;53;12 - 00;04;17;23
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting when I think about Canada, I think of a lot you know, a lot of the Canadian population is close to the US border. Yeah, but Alberta has. Is it almost like is it like a little channel of population that goes further north than the other provinces?

00;04;17;25 - 00;04;40;15
Corey Harlock
well, it's not as dense for sure, but yeah, there are kind of. Well, the, the little geography less than the capital of Alberta is Edmonton, which is probably three hours north of Alberta, and Alberta is about two hours north of the Montana border. So yeah, you're right. There's kind of two main cities in there. They're virtually stacked on top of each other about three hours apart.

00;04;40;18 - 00;05;20;10
Craig Andrews
Yeah. You know, there's a there's a marketer named John Spoelstra. He does a lot of sports marketing. Very smart guy. I'd recommend any book he's written, and he's written many, probably his best book is called marketing. well, I know one of his better books is marketing outrageously. And one of the things that he talks about is after he got done, building up the ticket sales at new Jersey nets, the owner of the Edmonton Oilers, started calling them, and apparently his ticket sales were tanking, and he had just sold Wayne Gretzky.

00;05;20;12 - 00;05;22;08
Corey Harlock
Yeah. Think so.

00;05;22;11 - 00;05;44;03
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And put up a big statue to Gretzky and sold him, I think, for 17 million or something like that. And ticket sales were plummeting. And, I forget the guy's name, the owner's name, but apparently, like a lot of billionaire sports team owners, very opinionated, hard, hard to channel, hard to manage.

00;05;44;05 - 00;05;48;04
Corey Harlock
Yeah, I think it was a Pocklington at that time.

00;05;48;06 - 00;06;12;15
Craig Andrews
I, you know, I can't remember, I can't remember, I know this, John told them, you know, so, you know, he paid John to come out and do kind of a look around. And John went up there and, originally planned two days. It only took him one day to figure out what was going on. They went to the owner and he said, the good news is I can fix your problem.

00;06;12;18 - 00;06;28;07
Craig Andrews
The bad news is there's two things I'm going to ask of you. One of them. One of them you can do. The other one you can't. He's like, okay, all right, give me the bad news. He said, the first thing you need to do is pay me a ton of money. And he laid out the, you know, the amount of money.

00;06;28;07 - 00;06;47;08
Craig Andrews
It's like, well, yeah, I can do that. And he said, I know that. That's the easy part. The thing you can't do, it's going to be hard for you, is you can't talk to the press for six months. And he kind of scratched his chin and looked around this like, that is a tough one. You know, I've been wanting to go to Hawaii.

00;06;47;09 - 00;07;01;10
Craig Andrews
Maybe I'll go to Hawaii for four months and will keep me away from the press. And so, sure enough, John got him to leave out, Edmonton and go to, Hawaii for four months while John rebuilt his ticket sales.

00;07;01;12 - 00;07;03;18
Corey Harlock
Right.

00;07;03;21 - 00;07;09;09
Craig Andrews
But so you were were you in Edmonton or where where were you?

00;07;09;12 - 00;07;31;29
Corey Harlock
And so I was in I was initially out in the Rockies, so I was in Banff, Lake Louise, a little town called field, BC, another town called Canmore, and then, yeah, that's where I started kind of my, boutique hotel hospitality career out in the Rockies, kind of trying to make a name for myself out there.

00;07;32;01 - 00;07;44;26
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And, you know, so what what sort of hotels, were there? I mean, when you say Boot Boutique, what does, help help me wrap my head around that?

00;07;44;29 - 00;08;12;16
Corey Harlock
Yeah. So the company I work for was called Canadian Rocky Mountain Resorts, and they owned, really niche, high end boutique hotels, you know, 120 rooms. But they had what what we kind of hang our hat on was the rooms were beautiful, but we had these really high end restaurants. we used to have an executive chef, and he coined this phrase, connect Canadian Rocky Mountain cuisine.

00;08;12;18 - 00;08;32;22
Corey Harlock
And it was kind of all on, like, local stuff, right, like out in deer. And, and it was designed around local fare and it was garnished with, you know, the stuff they would eat. So if you had an elk, it would be kind of maybe in a type of berry sauce with kind of all these different fixings. And it was, it was this holistic view.

00;08;32;24 - 00;08;53;16
Corey Harlock
And then each of the, so we had three hotels and so each one had a really high end dining room, and then each of them had a wine cellar. And so, all the hotels had wine tech, Wine Spectator Awards of excellence, and they'd all won. You know, each of us, director Food and Beverage, were responsible to manage our cellars and, create wine lists.

00;08;53;16 - 00;09;15;29
Corey Harlock
And, you know, that wasn't expected. We'd win these awards, but we had some really wealthy owners who were happy to throw some money at it if we wanted to give it a run. And, I think over my time there, I won 3 or 4 Wine Spectator Award of Excellence, with two hotels. At one point, I was overseeing two hotels, and I maintain one of the awards up one hotel.

00;09;16;00 - 00;09;24;17
Corey Harlock
But the the hotel I ran had never won one before. And when I left, we won, three years in a row. We had won that Spectator Award of Excellence.

00;09;24;20 - 00;09;26;16
Craig Andrews
Wow. Congratulations.

00;09;26;18 - 00;09;34;23
Corey Harlock
Yeah, it was pretty. It's pretty cool to see your your restaurant in print and the Wine Spectator. Right. It's kind of a it's good for the ego.

00;09;34;25 - 00;09;49;12
Craig Andrews
Good for the ego. I'll tell you where my mind's going. I'm sitting there thinking, okay, if I'm in this, well, will, wine brokers be visiting me, begging me to taste really good wines?

00;09;49;14 - 00;09;50;18
Corey Harlock
constantly.

00;09;50;20 - 00;09;51;24
Craig Andrews
Constantly.

00;09;51;26 - 00;10;11;15
Corey Harlock
Constantly. Like, so the problem, not the problem, but one of our challenges was two of our hotels were in Alberta, and one of them was in BC. And when you cross over that border, you're not allowed to ship wine from Alberta to BC for retail consumption. So, we would go to wine shows. And, you know, at the time of us, there were three directors, food and beverage.

00;10;11;15 - 00;10;43;15
Corey Harlock
And we all got along really, really well. And so we would go to these wine shows. And when we walked up to the table, people knew who we were. And, we, we had blank check. So if we like something and we all agreed on it, we would say like, we'll take 2 pounds ship one to BC and one to Alberta, you know, and so people would it, it was man, I was, I was way too young and way too inexperienced to be wielding that type of, influence.

00;10;43;15 - 00;11;02;19
Corey Harlock
You know what I mean? And, it went to my head, right? You. I mean, I was a director of food and beverage when I was 26 years old. I think I was probably one of the youngest directors of F and B out there. And I have, you know, a half $1 million wine cellar. And I'm working in this cool place and I'm buying wine and, so it was fun.

00;11;02;22 - 00;11;21;09
Corey Harlock
it was fun. If I had to do it again, I probably would have done it a little differently. But it, it's something I look back on as a really good learning opportunity because I was living a champagne lifestyle on a beer budget, but, I was too young and too inexperienced to understand the difference between those two.

00;11;21;11 - 00;11;45;22
Corey Harlock
and so, you know, you kind of, you do what you do, but it was fun. Yeah. I mean, we used to organize wine tastings and people would drop in on us, and and it we had a they crack down on it at one point, but we had a lot of, advantages that came with being able to buy that volume of wine.

00;11;45;25 - 00;11;50;25
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So what's what's your funniest wine story from that time?

00;11;50;27 - 00;12;18;05
Corey Harlock
Funniest wine story, I don't know, funny. well, okay. Here's one. so we went to this thing called the Vancouver Playhouse Wine Festival, which is a huge, probably one of the biggest ones in Canada. And so the three of us went, I go, I'll give first names only, but Dave, Shelley and myself went to the Vancouver Playhouse International Wine Festival and, you book all these seminars.

00;12;18;05 - 00;12;46;25
Corey Harlock
Right? So the first day were there, Your tasting, hundreds of wines. And so, the three of us, we really enjoyed wine. So we were not big fans of spitting out the wine. We were tasting a lot of wine. And Shelley was, Shelley has endless amounts of energy, and she had signed us up for a session early the next morning.

00;12;46;27 - 00;13;08;00
Corey Harlock
And so after tasting all these wines and going out to dinner with, you know, vineyard owners and things like that, it was it was a long and late night. And the next morning Dave and I are sleeping, and the phone rings, but so Dave answers the phone and he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll be right there.

00;13;08;08 - 00;13;25;07
Corey Harlock
He hangs up and he wakes me up and he's like, we got to get going. Our alarm didn't go off. Shelley is waiting in the lobby for us right now, and she's pissed because she got up and we then so we, like, scramble to put ourselves together, run down to the lobby to get to this, session, with Shelley.

00;13;25;07 - 00;13;30;28
Corey Harlock
And she was, she was okay. And we were not.

00;13;31;00 - 00;13;59;22
Craig Andrews
yeah, I, I used to work for a boss like that. That, we we were in a hotel. We were in the, the sports bar at the, Marriott, Berliner Strauss and Munich. And we were getting ready for a big meeting with Siemens next morning. And about 2:00 am, my boss, Joe, sitting there with a cigar in one hand, a big, tall beer, and the other, he's having a big time.

00;13;59;22 - 00;14;10;13
Craig Andrews
I'm like, Joe, I'm going to bed. I'll see you in the morning. And, he was like, okay. I mean, just one of these people sounds like Shelly, that just could stay up all night.

00;14;10;20 - 00;14;25;28
Corey Harlock
There was no quit in her. And that's what. That's what I say when I go back and look at it. I would have done it a little differently, right? But, we were there to have some fun and take advantage of our, you know, quote unquote status. But, yeah. So.

00;14;26;00 - 00;14;31;00
Craig Andrews
Well, you found another treasure up there, did you not?

00;14;31;03 - 00;14;52;08
Corey Harlock
Yeah. My wife, you, my wife used to work for. Yeah. She came as a summer employee. and that's where I met her. And, here we are. And that was in 1999. So here we are 25 years later, and we're married with two kids, and, my and my joke, whether it's politically correct or not, I always say she used to work for me.

00;14;52;08 - 00;14;53;15
Corey Harlock
Now I work for her.

00;14;53;17 - 00;15;02;22
Craig Andrews
Oh. That's funny. Yeah, yeah, well, and you left from there and you went to the Cayman Islands. That was your next gig?

00;15;02;29 - 00;15;19;05
Corey Harlock
That's correct. Yeah. I, I took a summer off, did some rock climbing, and, I think it like, had a date on my head. It was August, whatever. And I took I, you know, the internet was just kind of coming around, and I went and, looked at every restaurant and everything there was in the Cayman Islands.

00;15;19;05 - 00;15;30;08
Corey Harlock
And I said, I don't know, I might email, like, 30 resumes down to the Cayman Islands. And then like two weeks later, my phone started to ring with some different opportunities, and I ended up, down in Cayman. Yeah. That's correct.

00;15;30;11 - 00;15;46;13
Craig Andrews
Wow. I mean, and so that's kind of like a dream life. I mean, people picture that of, you know, work in the Cayman Islands, you know, work by the beach, you know, leave work, go out and lay on the beach. Was was it, was everything we dream of?

00;15;46;16 - 00;16;11;10
Corey Harlock
No, no. when you're there working, if you're. It came in, that's life. If you're there on a work permit. I mean, the expectation is you work six days a week, you get one day off a week, and, you it's. You work when they need you to write, they own your permit. So, if you don't deliver for them, they just cancel your permit, and they ship you off the island.

00;16;11;13 - 00;16;27;14
Corey Harlock
so it's it's it's hard down there as an expat on a work permit, working it. The expectations are big. And you, you work a lot, and you know, you're one day off if you want to go. There's not a lot to do. You can dive and you can drink. Those are about the only. And you can hang out at the beach.

00;16;27;14 - 00;16;36;16
Corey Harlock
But if you're at the beach, you're probably drinking. So it's, that's that's the king Romanian lifestyle. for an expat down there working.

00;16;36;19 - 00;16;42;15
Craig Andrews
That sounds like one step away from, having an immigrant worker and taking their passport.

00;16;42;18 - 00;17;05;04
Corey Harlock
It is for sure like, another politically incorrect joke of mine is, you know, the Caymans were founded by pirates, and it's still run by pirates. They, you know, I didn't work for the nicest guy down there, but, yeah, I mean, if they wanted you gone, they they would just go and cancel your permit, and they would come and say, you got to go and ship you off the island.

00;17;05;07 - 00;17;08;08
Craig Andrews
oh. Wow. Oh, my goodness.

00;17;08;08 - 00;17;24;21
Corey Harlock
You didn't like the person you're working for. You had to get their permission to kind of say, yeah, I'll. I'll release you so someone else could take over your work permit. You could go work for them. It's not like I have a work permit, and I can go work for whomever I want. You have a permit to work for that employer?

00;17;24;24 - 00;17;31;06
Craig Andrews
Yeah, that's. That's strict. That's rugged.

00;17;31;08 - 00;17;48;13
Corey Harlock
It's I mean, it's it's a it's a culture based on religion and money. And so, the way they have it set up, I look back like at the time, it was exhausting. I mean, I look back fondly now because that's really where, you know, my wife at the time, I invited her to come to Cayman. She was in school.

00;17;48;13 - 00;18;10;27
Corey Harlock
So she came down for, the summer and work for me. And that's kind of where our relationship took off. And we met some people that we we became friends with. so looking back on it now, it was a good it. I remember the good parts about it. But down there, when you work and it's a real Brian, I get it's hard work, man.

00;18;10;29 - 00;18;15;09
Craig Andrews
Yeah. So what are you doing now?

00;18;15;11 - 00;18;39;03
Corey Harlock
Well, well, now I, I'm running t hire and trying to grow key hire. And you know, we're working with small business owners so we can improve their lives and improve the lives of their employees and their employees families. And ultimately that trickles down into the community. Right? That's that's the mission, a key hire. We want to make sure we're supporting small business owners so they can get where they want to go.

00;18;39;05 - 00;18;54;03
Corey Harlock
and in turn, they can support their employees families or their employees. And when they're all happy and being successful, you know, the community is a better place. They can spend more time and more resources in the community, making the world a better place.

00;18;54;05 - 00;19;06;16
Craig Andrews
You know, I, I think you're the only person in the recruiting industry that I've ever heard make that connection from your work all the way down to impacting communities.

00;19;06;16 - 00;19;10;07
Corey Harlock
Yeah, I'm going to make a small adjustment. I'm not a recruiter.

00;19;10;09 - 00;19;14;08
Craig Andrews
Okay, so here I'm I'm confused. What do you do?

00;19;14;10 - 00;19;44;04
Corey Harlock
So I consult with small business owners on talent strategy. constraints, talent constraints, experience gaps in their business. We look at their organizational charts and we kind of map up. We map the the journey for them to get from five, just throwing out random numbers. Here's what your organization looks at at $10 million and you're struggling. But if you want to get to 30, right, here's what your organization will need to look like.

00;19;44;07 - 00;20;07;25
Corey Harlock
And here are the incremental steps we need to take in terms of talent and leadership. And experience, and capacity to build into your business to get the 30. So 60% of the work we do is developing new roles within an organization. And then that's great. We've developed the role, but then we have to go to Mr. or Mrs. Business Owner and say, this is how we're going to integrate this role into your business.

00;20;07;25 - 00;20;27;01
Corey Harlock
And when we integrate this role into your business, here's how your behavior might have to change, because we're putting professionals with capacity and potentially more experience than you have into this part of the business. And so your behaviors have to change, right? We need to start changing the way we manage. We need to start changing the way we organize.

00;20;27;01 - 00;20;47;27
Corey Harlock
We need to change the span of control. So once we kind of look at those things then we do go out and acquire talent. But I'm not a recruiter. What we do is we supplement the DIY own, right. So when DIY is not getting it done for a business owner, that's where we come in. We come in in sauce, we come in and act as part of your team.

00;20;47;27 - 00;20;53;27
Corey Harlock
We come in and act as your director of talent, strategy and acquisition.

00;20;54;00 - 00;21;06;05
Craig Andrews
So what are some of the blind spots when when you just start working with somebody? What are some common blind spots that you find business owners and executives have in their talent plan?

00;21;06;08 - 00;21;26;28
Corey Harlock
So it depends. I'm going to give you a really this could be a long answer, but, so in this in the work we've done, we talk about small business owners, right. That's an umbrella term. And so we've really identified five what we call our key owner stages. And this is the state of the business owner not the state of the business.

00;21;27;00 - 00;21;52;19
Corey Harlock
So at the at the far left of the spectrum, we would have what we would call the overwhelmed business owner. So this could be someone who has taken over. there are generational owner taking over a business from a family member, and they have all these ideas and they're really implementing ideas in the businesses growing or they're there, you know, the original business owner, but they're really growing the business.

00;21;52;21 - 00;22;15;26
Corey Harlock
And now they're or they are overwhelmed, which means the people they brought in at the beginning. And that's like your neighbor, your cousin, your cousin's neighbor, all these people that banded together to do the work are doing the best job they can. But the, the, the requirements and the volume of the business have outgrown their experience and abilities to manage the business.

00;22;15;28 - 00;22;36;05
Corey Harlock
So I like to say, you know, at this point it's like the wheels have fallen off the machine, right? And the business owner is, is is kind of bewildered. They're thinking, I don't know what's going on. All of these people used to be so good, and now we're all working 60 hours a week and we still can't keep up.

00;22;36;07 - 00;22;57;02
Corey Harlock
Right? So that's the overwhelmed business owner. Then as we move up the scale, we kind of move to the unsure business owner. And this is what we call the wobbly wheels, right. So this is where the business owner is, you know, not as stressed out as as the overwhelmed business owner. They know they have a problem, but they still just can't put their finger on it.

00;22;57;05 - 00;23;21;10
Corey Harlock
But you know, the wheels are wobbly. They know there's a problem there. What do I need to do then? Then the next phase is what we call the unsure business owner. And this is where we call the squeaky wheel. Right? So I know I have a problem, I think I know where it is, but I don't know what my options are and I don't know how to deal with it.

00;23;21;12 - 00;23;45;29
Corey Harlock
Then we move further along that scale. And this is where we come to the, the, curious business owner, in that, that curious, sorry, the, the unsure business owner of the wobbly wheels, the curious business owners, the squeaky wheel. Right. So the curious business owners now getting to the point where they're saying, I know who's doing well and I know who's not, but I don't really know why.

00;23;46;01 - 00;24;05;05
Corey Harlock
And then we go to the growing business owner, and these are the business owners who say, I know I need more capacity and more talent in my business because we're growing and I and I need the time to start putting things in place to maintain growth. And then the final stages of a strategic business owner who is saying, I know what I need, just fill in the holes for me.

00;24;05;05 - 00;24;28;24
Corey Harlock
Right? Because and this is like so the growing business owner, we're upgrading the wheels. So we've gone wheels have fallen off, wobbly wheels, a squeaky wheel growing business owner. We're putting high performance tires on the vehicle now right. We're upgrading those nicer rims, better tires. And then the strategic business owner is like, we're adding wheels, right? We we we got velocity here.

00;24;28;24 - 00;24;31;18
Corey Harlock
We're moving. We're traveling. We just need more traction.

00;24;31;20 - 00;24;32;19
Craig Andrews
Yeah.

00;24;32;21 - 00;25;00;15
Corey Harlock
And so each of those people have a different need. but if we look at kind of the overwhelmed and the unsure business owner, often those are people that, They're working with what they have and who has been with them in the beginning, and they haven't made that. They haven't changed their definition of what a good employee looks like.

00;25;00;17 - 00;25;25;15
Corey Harlock
They and I'm always very cautious of saying anything. that could be viewed as negative because business owners are hardworking individuals. They have a vision, they're doing the best they can. And I never want to make disparaging comments, but what happens is, you know, in that overwhelmed and unsure business owner, they have people they that have got them where they are.

00;25;25;18 - 00;26;00;13
Corey Harlock
So they believe they are the right people for the job. And what happens is the business outgrows the ability and the capacity of those individuals. So they cannot they don't have any resource is to draw upon to create better, process and procedure to enable the business to grow. So they become the constraint. And our job is to come in and say, yeah, that operations manager you have that started with you ten years ago and used to turn a machine, and then they showed up every day and they're responsible.

00;26;00;13 - 00;26;27;05
Corey Harlock
So you moved them to your supervisor and now they're your manager. But they have no formal training and they're they're great soldier and they work hard. They're not the person to grow your operation from 10 to 30. And so we need to redefine what good looks like and bring in professionals with the capacity and the experience, the build, the process and procedure to grow your business.

00;26;27;07 - 00;26;39;23
Craig Andrews
I would guess when you have that conversation, you run into a fair number of people that are overwhelmed by their sense of loyalty for the person that got them to where they are.

00;26;39;26 - 00;26;44;10
Corey Harlock
100% for sure, and they should be.

00;26;44;12 - 00;26;46;17
Craig Andrews
How do you navigate that?

00;26;46;20 - 00;27;10;27
Corey Harlock
it's it's this is what I tell them. There is no conversation or decision you will make in your business ever, ever. That is harder than sitting down that loyal soldier and saying, thank you for getting me here. I'm grateful. Forever grateful to what you've done to help me. But I don't think you can get me where I need to go from here.

00;27;10;29 - 00;27;37;04
Corey Harlock
And we have options, right? There's there's things we can do with that person. but they're not often open to it. So we can hire someone above them to mentor them and develop them. But that's a shot to the pride for the individual. Often we can give them a different seat on the boss, a new role. And that's, in my experience, typically a mandate.

00;27;37;07 - 00;27;57;19
Corey Harlock
Or we can help them find their next adventure. We can help them find their next opportunity and say, let's work together to see what we can do for you. but the challenge can often be these people become what I call an overvalued asset because they've been there and they've shown up and they've got continually been given raises and increases.

00;27;57;22 - 00;28;26;24
Corey Harlock
We have an employee who, we're just going to throw numbers out is making $100,000 a year. But on the open market, they might be worth 70 to 80. And so to move them into a new role with a new company could mean a step back. So it's a really, really hard conversation and just it's a hard problem for a business owner to solve the first time.

00;28;26;26 - 00;28;47;09
Corey Harlock
But once we do it the first time and they kind of have that courage and trust to make a change, and then they see what a professional person with the experience, they in capacity, they need to do the job. Once they see the impact that person has on their business, that's where they really transition from that unsure business owner to the curious.

00;28;47;09 - 00;29;07;26
Corey Harlock
That's where they start thinking, wow, if I brought in this person and they were able to do this and they were able to make all these positive changes in this area of my business, what if I look at my other views and that's often the hump they need to get over? And I'm not advocating you just start firing all your people that helped you get where you are.

00;29;07;26 - 00;29;30;06
Corey Harlock
I am I am termination averse, right? I don't think that's the first option ever, because these are people with lives and bills and stuff. They have to do. But it comes down often to a choice, right? Like, do I want to make sure I take care of this person, and keep them in my business and keep paying them?

00;29;30;06 - 00;29;53;19
Corey Harlock
Or do I want to move my business forward? And so we got to find that kind of that path, whatever that path is, the right path and that that kind of spurts, taking care of the person and growing the business. But often it's it's not keeping that person in their role and just kind of wishing and hoping they can do better.

00;29;53;22 - 00;30;01;14
Craig Andrews
One of the things you said was moving them into a different role in the company is typically a band and doesn't work out.

00;30;01;16 - 00;30;02;10
Corey Harlock
Correct.

00;30;02;13 - 00;30;05;19
Craig Andrews
What's the reason for that?

00;30;05;21 - 00;30;30;15
Corey Harlock
I don't have any scientific data to back this up, but what what I feel like happens is, that person feels like they have been, given a bad deal, right? Yeah. I was doing just fine in that role, and I was I was getting there and I was going to figure it out. And now you've lost trust in me, and you're bringing in this other person, and you don't even know them.

00;30;30;15 - 00;31;05;23
Corey Harlock
And you know me. There's a lot of trash that goes on in there, right? Because it sucks. It's all it's it being on the other end of that, it's hard to rationalize and it's hard not to be upset about that. And so we move them to a different position and often you just watch their performance go fall off the cliff because they're they're more focused on how upset they are than they are about recreating themself in the company and, proving they can do it.

00;31;05;25 - 00;31;23;11
Corey Harlock
and I've seen it a lot right where we move on, and then you're kind of like, you know, you follow up and like, how are they doing? They're like, yeah, they're that I don't know. And then and then that's where the owner now is like, I gave them a chance. There's this communication that doesn't align often.

00;31;23;11 - 00;31;40;07
Corey Harlock
Right. It's like the owner saying, I gave him a chance and I could have just walked them out the door, but I. I wanted to do this for them, and now they're not even trying anymore. And then on their on that loyal person side, they're like, you know, I gave you blood, sweat, tears, and then you didn't even have the courtesy to give me a chance and you move me out of there.

00;31;40;07 - 00;31;55;22
Corey Harlock
And so there's this real disconnect. and there's a lot of emotion tied up to it. There's a often a friendship in the in the middle of that, like, it's it it's a messy situation.

00;31;55;24 - 00;32;23;01
Craig Andrews
You know, we're both invested and what we're going to talk about what vestiges and but the and some my put something out to one of the networks in a question and you probably get the emails like I get them and they were talking about a similar situation where somebody who had been a loyal employee, they had promoted to a point of their incompetence, and they were trying to figure out what to.

00;32;23;03 - 00;32;47;06
Craig Andrews
Yeah. And they were trying to figure out what to do. and my advice was give them three options, but make them make the choice which of the three options they're going to take. And that's, that's partially because my, you know, I, I think a lot about preserving people's autonomy, you know, and that's you know, I just see powerful things happen.

00;32;47;13 - 00;33;02;01
Craig Andrews
You know, I think about it from a sales perspective, a sales marketing perspective. The more you preserve people's autonomy, the higher your closing rate will be. And when you try to box them into the canyon, guess what? They realize they're being boxed in and they they try to get out.

00;33;02;04 - 00;33;02;26
Corey Harlock
Right.

00;33;02;28 - 00;33;17;15
Craig Andrews
What would what would be your advice? And if that was bad advice that I gave that person, let it out. I'm just curious how what do you think, how much of the choice should be in the hands of the individual, and how much in the choice of the owner?

00;33;17;17 - 00;33;35;11
Corey Harlock
Yeah. So, what I think is the original choices in the hands of the owner. Right. And I don't mind giving people choice. I think I outlined three choices myself. So, you can stay in your role, but I'm going to hire someone over you. But their directive will be a to improve the department, and they're going to do some things that you might not agree with.

00;33;35;13 - 00;34;02;15
Corey Harlock
But also we want them to mentor you and give you skills so you can remain a valuable member of the team. and so the power initially is in the owner's hands. They need to come up with the right choices. So whatever the person chooses is a win for both, right? So if you choose to to stay where you are and let's bring someone in over you and you got to commit to working with them, that's a win for both of us.

00;34;02;17 - 00;34;19;25
Corey Harlock
Or you can say, I don't want to be in this role anymore. I think I want to move. If someone else is going to come in to run the department, I just want to be out of them. and so if that's what you want, let's talk about what that role is and make that a win win. Or if you just say, I'm done, I need to get out.

00;34;19;27 - 00;34;42;24
Corey Harlock
Let's talk about how we can do that and work together to make sure you're successful doing that. And that's a win for both sides. Right. Because last time the last thing you want is a kind of toxic person running around in there. And then once you give them the choice, the power goes into the hands of the, the, person, you know, in this case, maybe a leader who's kind of petered out right there.

00;34;42;24 - 00;35;00;23
Corey Harlock
They've been risen to the level of their own incompetence. And, now they get to make a choice. But the owner has to hold them accountable to that choice. They. But that's got to be a conversation or an. Okay, so let's talk through what this choice means. What are your expectations for me? What are my expectations of you?

00;35;00;25 - 00;35;24;22
Corey Harlock
Because I want this to work. I don't want you to feel like I'm just casting you out, or I don't value you or I don't appreciate everything you've done for me. so, yeah, I would I would tend to agree with the advice you gave. I think we're aligned in that. But it needs to be more than just going to the person saying, well, what do you want?

00;35;24;24 - 00;35;28;10
Corey Harlock
Yeah, I'm totally agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;35;28;10 - 00;35;32;18
Craig Andrews
It's a choice with structure. It's a very structured choice.

00;35;32;21 - 00;36;03;17
Corey Harlock
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And they might come back and say look it I got a fourth option. Here's what I came up with and listen to it. If it's a win win. listen. Right. Because there's a lot of tribal knowledge there. There's potentially a friendship there. There's loyalty there. Building a getting a business. Building a business to the point where you have to think about replacing people because they can't handle the volume levels.

00;36;03;20 - 00;36;26;27
Corey Harlock
Is is something right? How many people build a business to the point where they have employees and then they get so busy they have to reconsider if those employees are the right employees? Like that's an accomplishment in itself. And, so it's got to be taken seriously. Like, and again, I always go back to men. These these are people with lives.

00;36;26;27 - 00;36;47;11
Corey Harlock
They're married, they have mortgages, they probably have kids in school. And. You don't ever want them to go home and have to tell their wife, I just got fired. Why? Well, because my, you know, my buddy thinks I can't do my job anymore, and I don't know how we're going to. You know, we got three months worth of cash in the bank, and I got to go find a new job like that.

00;36;47;11 - 00;37;06;00
Corey Harlock
That's that's crappy. you know, when I. When I have clients and they're like, well, we'll hire them. And if they don't work at three months, we'll just fire mine, like, whoa, stop, stop, stop. That's not how we do business. That's not we need to talk about that. And if that's your attitude, I can't work with you because we're dealing with people.

00;37;06;02 - 00;37;39;17
Corey Harlock
We're dealing with human beings, with lives, especially when you're dealing with like, leadership and senior leadership. These are mature people with families and lives and mortgages. And we can't have this, this belief system where it didn't work out for me. I'll just fire them. That's that's not what we do. Like, let's let's do it correctly and maximize the probability of getting this right and making sure everyone's happy and everyone successful versus this, you know, and that all comes down the process like the hiring process.

00;37;39;17 - 00;38;00;13
Corey Harlock
But if you're just hiring people to see if they're going to work out or you're just going to fire them. I would really take a look into kind of, you're affecting people's lives and that's a big deal. Yeah. So we need to be real serious, real cautious about that stuff.

00;38;00;16 - 00;38;25;11
Craig Andrews
Well, and I can tell you, I would really struggle, you know, if you came to me and you said, Craig, this has been a loyal employee to to you. But they, you know, they're no no longer right for this job. you know, I was emotionally, immensely kind playing that scenario out in my own life, and especially if it was somebody that played a role in running my business when I was in a coma.

00;38;25;14 - 00;38;34;19
Craig Andrews
Yeah, I'd be like, you know, I that would be an incredibly hard decision for me.

00;38;34;22 - 00;39;19;05
Corey Harlock
Yeah. 100%. The hardest decision you'll ever make. Yeah. Like running a business is easier than having to deal with people and having those conversations. Those conversations suck. They're hard. But sometimes we need to weigh that. Right? And this is so I've had people where we've we've had those conversations and sometimes what'll happen. And this is the usual route, they'll say, no, no, we're not changing that person, but we'll go to work and do something else and bring in a professional and change their their perception of what a good person looks like.

00;39;19;08 - 00;39;41;28
Corey Harlock
And then within six months, they'll come back to me and say, you know, we have that conversation about so-and-so. I think you're right, because now they're seeing what a professional looks like, someone with the experience and the capacity to grow their business looks like against the person who's been a loyal employee and gotten them where they are, but has no more juice left.

00;39;41;28 - 00;40;04;18
Corey Harlock
Right. So they're kind of seeing this. This, leveling of talent. And that's where they come to me and go. You're right, I think. I don't think they're they can do the job anymore because they have it. They now have a different temperaments. And, that's where I say, okay. So how do you want to deal with this?

00;40;04;18 - 00;40;31;14
Corey Harlock
What do you want to do? And, I, you know, I've, I've asked this question to a couple of my clients and said to them, since we've been working together and the people that we've worked, you know, the roles we've developed and the the people we've integrated into your business and different leadership roles has that because of those people?

00;40;31;16 - 00;40;59;18
Corey Harlock
Have you change your opinion or your vision of what a good employee looks like? And to a business owner, they don't even hesitate and they're like, yes. And then they understand. They're like, no, they're they've been struggling with this kind of growth like this right in there. It's hard. And then we put some pros in there and they start going like this.

00;40;59;20 - 00;41;18;00
Corey Harlock
And they're at home for dinner with their family. they're able to take the weekend off without anyone calling them. Their life gets easier and their business gets more profitable all at the same time. And so that's.

00;41;18;02 - 00;41;41;26
Craig Andrews
Well, and that's and that's something to hang the hat on. And it's, you know, I think, something Jack Welch said when he took over GE, when he took over GE, it was 400,000 strong. And he you know, he earned the name neutron Jack because, you know, the neutron bomb, you know, it would it would the buildings would remain standing but all the people would be gone.

00;41;42;02 - 00;41;43;04
Corey Harlock
Right.

00;41;43;06 - 00;41;55;15
Craig Andrews
And to hear his perspective, he said, look, we were a we were a 200,000 person company that had 400,000 employees.

00;41;55;18 - 00;41;58;11
Corey Harlock
Yeah, yeah. That's interesting.

00;41;58;13 - 00;42;03;22
Craig Andrews
My job was to make sure the jobs of those 200,000 were secure.

00;42;03;24 - 00;42;30;26
Corey Harlock
Yeah, that's that's and similarly, you know, what I tell business owners all the time is, you know, if you're at $10 million, I say we're not hiring and designing roles for people to run your $10 million a your company word, designing roles and integrating leaders into your company to run a $30 million company currently doing ten. Yeah. And so that enables them to switch and go.

00;42;30;28 - 00;42;52;23
Corey Harlock
What do you mean like what? What's the difference? What do you mean by that? And that's where, you know, the biggest mistake people make is they hire for current needs. And then so that person's capacity is limited. So say you're at 10 million and you hire someone to run a $10 million operation, and you grow to 15. They're already Peter principle that right.

00;42;52;23 - 00;43;13;23
Corey Harlock
They're already now they're struggling. And you're like, what's going on? They were so great. Now they're struggling. It's because they don't have the jam. They don't have the horsepower, the experience, the capacity. There are $15 million person right there experiences all that 15 million. They know how to design, process and procedure to run a $15 million a year company.

00;43;13;23 - 00;43;36;14
Corey Harlock
And that's real, right? So we want to go bigger. And so instead of chasing growth and like putting fingers and holes and Band-Aids on on problems, we want to identify all those constraints and all those gaps and then build process and procedure out here that the company just kind of broke organically, grows into.

00;43;36;16 - 00;43;58;08
Craig Andrews
You know, you know, Corey, I could go on for another 30 minutes hour. This is this is fascinating. And it's you've challenged me and am quite sure that you've challenged others. How can people reach out to you and continue the conversation.

00;43;58;10 - 00;44;26;08
Corey Harlock
Yeah. And I would love to. Right. So we there's a couple different ways we can do this. my email is it's simple. It's Corey at symbol T hire one word k e y h I r e dot solutions not.com or a t hire dot solutions. Send me an email. you can hit the website. we do have a free free conversation.

00;44;26;08 - 00;44;42;13
Corey Harlock
It's we always say no weirdness, no sales. If you if you're having a talent issue where you want to talk to us, just book some time and we'll chat. we're happy to give you tools and resources that take into your business that you can implement, if you like what you hear and you want to continue to work with us, we can talk about that too.

00;44;42;13 - 00;45;00;13
Corey Harlock
But that's not the purpose of the call. They can hit me up on LinkedIn. Corey, Corey Harlock, look at LinkedIn. You'll see my my ugly mug up there. And you can connect with me there or our Facebook page, the, g hire solutions based, LinkedIn page. Those are probably the primary ways to connect with us.

00;45;00;15 - 00;45;05;01
Craig Andrews
Well, I do hope people reach out. Corey, thank you for being on Leaders and Legacies.

00;45;05;04 - 00;45;10;19
Corey Harlock
Yeah that's great. I've enjoyed it. Thanks so much for for having me.

00;45;10;19 - 00;45;39;15
Craig Andrews
This is Craig Andrews. I want to thank you for listening to the Leaders and Legacies podcast. We're looking for leaders to share how they're making the impact beyond themselves. If that's you, please go to Alize for me.com/guest and sign up there. If you got something out of this interview, we would love you to share this episode on social media.

00;45;39;17 - 00;46;02;29
Craig Andrews
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00;46;03;01 - 00;48;13;15
Craig Andrews
Please go ahead and subscribe your thumbs up! Ratings and reviews go a long way to help promote the show. It means a lot to me. It means a lot to my team. If you want to know more, please go to Alize for me.com. or follow me on LinkedIn. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.